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rmiller
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I guess I don’t understand what post reply means. I wanted to say to the author what a good answer. Direct and to the point.
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LittleSoldier
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So you believe that child molesters and rapists, who have not murdered, should be executed? Are you aware that most child molesters were themselves molested as children?
Are child molestation and rape capital crimes? I don’t even think the State believes so.
I’m sorry you had such a terrible experience but I wonder if you truly understand forgiveness. Child molesters and rapists are guilty of heinous crimes but they are still loved by God and are His precious lambs. If He would die for their sins shouldn’t we forgive them? Forgiveness may not be easy; if it were we would forgive without hesitation. It’s hard to forgive. It’s also what we are supposed to do if we want God to forgive us. It’s not for the good of their souls; it’s for the good of ours.
I’m really sorry that you were victimized in such a horrendous way. You are in my prayers.
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surritter
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Well then you didn’t read post #355, as suggested. I wrote:
“Specifically [regarding the quote from Trent given in post 349], what is ‘the just use of this power’? That could be a prudential matter accorded to a particular time and place…”
Your use of this quote from Trent is indeed important, but you fail to realize that you extract your own meaning about what the “just use” of punishment should be. That is why your quote is as equally a “prudential matter” as is 2267 of the current Catechism, as you claim.
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LittleSoldier
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Just click on as you did (correctly), add your comments below the that appears and then click on and voila! Your post should show up just fine.
When you get used to the system you can see what other people have done (like I usually change fonts but I’m not doing so in this post) and follow their example.You can use to start a post in which you don’t want to use a quote. I don’t see that happening much. BTW, you have 20 minutes after posting to edit or delete your post.
I hope this helps.
Welcome to CAF!
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LittleSoldier
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Just click on as you did (correctly), add your comments below the that appears and then click on and voila! Your post should show up just fine.
You can use to start a post in which you don’t want to use a quote. I don’t see that happening much. BTW, you have 20 minutes to edit your post.
I hope this helps.
Welcome to CAF!
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schaubj57
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I’m looking at it from the victims side. The mental anguish and honestly torture that they go through is life long. I still fight the demons and I am 33 now. The death penalty is a tool that can be used to stop the continual cycle of these child molesters. You can not cure or stop them through therapy or drugs. I remember vividly a case when I was younger right around the time I was being molested) that a school teacher who was found molesting a 2nd grader was on trial and the state presented the opinion of a psychologist. The psychologist’s certified opinion was that child molesters can not be cured by any means known to people. Using that prognosis, what else can be done with them? Anyone who hurts a person like that shouldn’t be here. Again, this is all my opinion. I know God can forgive and love them unconditionally, but for the betterment of society they should be removed from society before they hurt any more children. In my case, it has put a strain on my personal life, robbed me of a time in my life where a kid should have friends, date and enjoy their highschool/college years. I never got that. It has strained the relationship with my parents, my family, my friends, and my everyday life. The last few years I have finally been able to overcome things and move forward but I have lost over two decades of life while the one who molested me is still in the world and I have grave fears hurt two other children. I say that because my behavior changed drastically when this happened and I saw two other children’s behavior change in the exact same manner once the one who molested me started being around them more. If indeed they did something to those two kids, I doubt I can ever forgive myself for not coming forward and seeing how teir dad is such good friends with the molester, he would never listen to me if I came forward and told him of my ordeal. There was and still is a long standing “cold war” between myself and my molester.
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Ender
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I’m guessing that the “just use” of that power consisted in applying it in cases where criminals were fairly tried and found guilty of serious crimes, as opposed to the “unjust use” of that power as it was applied by tyrants to simply eliminate those who stood in their way.
I don’t find it that difficult to extract the plain meaning of words. When confronted with the explanation that the State receives its authority from God some people derisively asked if this meant that God approved of the actions of dictators like Pol Pot and Stalin. That’s why executions must be “just.” Given that the very same sentence that calls for its just use also calls its use “paramount obedience” to the commandment, is it really that hard to understand the point being made?
The section in the Catechism of Trent that addresses capital punishment is straightforward and simple to understand. The position it puts forward is based on Gen 9:5-6 (which it specifically references) and those passages are just as straightforward:
- Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man’s brother I will require the life of man.
Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.*
Ender
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rmiller
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monia817
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… died (((((
I always look here yourdeathdate.info/1/index.html
Death when it comes will have no denial.
I always look here yourdeathdate.info/1/index.html
Death when it comes will have no denial.
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rmiller
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I have been concerned that a Catholic could not serve on a capital crime because the church seems to be against the death penalty.
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church Article 2266: (in part) The Church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalities cpmmensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, THE DEATH PENALTY.
I am therefore in favor of the death penalty by supporting a fair jury’s decision.
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LittleSoldier
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I believe you are correct when you say they cannot be cured. It’s true that we don’t know how; at least in the case of pedophiles. I agree that they should be removed from society. What I don’t agree with is that they should be executed. They can be placed in prison and please believe me when I say that being in prison is punishment. Pedophiles are hated by the other prisoners and are often killed while in prison.
There is so much I want to say to you but I’m afraid it would be off-topic for this thread. But please understand that I’m not trying to say your pain is not real or that it’s not important or that you just suffer a little. And I’m not saying that forgiveness wipes away what happened to you. What happened happened. One thing I can say is that IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT!! Please talk to your priest or try to find a support group. I know you’re suffering and I wish I could take it away. Really, seriously. I will continue to pray for you and I hope that others do, too.
May God’s peace be with you.
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LittleSoldier
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Exactly. You are “guessing.”
And that is why I brought up the factors that practically guarantee that few people are justly found guilty of a capital crime. You said you weren’t interested in the practicalities. Do you honestly believe that every alleged murderer sitting on death row is absolutely guilty of the crime for which he will be executed? Are you willing to take the chance that an innocent human being will be executed?
Of course the State gets its authority from God! Everything comes from God. That does not mean that the State uses its God-given authority properly and ethically. Until it does (and it probably never will) we should not be executing people found guilty under a system which does not protect their God-given dignity. If you are going to argue that executions are just you might think about becoming interested in the practicalities.
Evidently you don’t believe that the current CCC 1956 and 1957 are relevant or that our understanding of truth can develop over time. What does the Catechism of Trent say about stem cell research? About abortion?
Here is something I DID find from the Catechism of Trent:
But the most important duty of all, and that which is the fullest expression of charity, and to the practice of which we should most habituate ourselves, is to pardon and forgive from the heart the injuries which we may have received from others. The Sacred Scriptures, as we have already observed, frequently admonish and exhort us to a full compliance with this duty. Not only do they pronounce blessed those who do this, but they also declare that God grants pardon to those who really fulfil this duty, while He refuses pardon to those who neglect it, or refuse to obey it.
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LittleSoldier
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I don’t think that anyone who has been posting significantly in this thread has ever said that the Church does not allow the death penalty. We have agreed on that.
But I wonder about your term “fair jury.” May I ask what a “fair jury” is? What happens if you have a “fair jury” but the defendant is poor and must rely on an underpaid public defender? What if the defendant is super-rich and has hired a “dream team?” What about the judge? You can have a “fair jury” and a judge with a conflict of interest or one who really shouldn’t even be a judge because he’s accepting bribes or doesn’t have the slightest clue about misconduct. You can have attorneys that flaunt the law, behave unethically while knowing they are behaving unethically, offer bribes, make statements which, even as they are thrown out and the jury is told to disregard the statement, enter into the subconscious mind of every member of that “fair jury” and influence them without their conscious knowledge.
Evidence can be mistakenly withheld or introduced.
There can be massive media coverage and if a jury is not properly sequestered (and probably even if they are) that coverage is bound to get to the members of the jury and influence them, even if they are trying their hardest to be good, fair, ethical jurors.
Or you can have a situation that happened with a member of my family. During a lunch break the defendant simply left the courtroom and (allegedly) murdered a witness who was scheduled to testify. The jury was dismissed after lunch, “fair” or not “fair.”
What I’m trying to say is that there are so many factors that can make what should be a fair trial into a three-ring circus that simply basing one’s acceptance of a death penalty based on a “fair jury” is probably over-simplifying the situation.
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LittleSoldier
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Will you please provide a source to back up your assertion? Is this Church teaching?
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rmiller
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rmiller
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You cite many extremes and I am sure there are. But how can I argue with you because you apparently don’t believe in our Trial By Jury System. If there is a better way to judge people then we should adopt that system.
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Ender
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I guess I should have put “guessing” in quotes to indicate that I was taking the obvious meaning of the words.
I consider this comment fantastical. Nor does it accord with Church teaching. Given that she has always recognized the right of States to employ capital punishment she must have believed that fair trials were in fact not only possible but common or she would have opposed executions on this basis alone. But she never has.
I believe errors are made in a tiny fraction of one percent. I also believe that if the innocent were wrongfully executed as often as you believe we would have examples of such cases. In fact there are no cases at all were an innocent person is known to have been executed. There are several possibilities but even the anti-death penalty organizations have not claimed proof of innocence; they can only put forward their best cases and hope that people find them persuasive.
Yes. You are willing to accept the certainty of deaths of innocent people at the hands of recidivist killers; why is it wrong for me to accept the possibility of wrongful executions?
You’re using your conclusion to justify your argument. Your position is that an execution is an offense against a person’s dignity, but since the Church has accepted the use of capital punishment for 2000 years it’s quite a stretch to claim that she is just now realizing that it is contrary to human dignity.
There are moral arguments and there are practical arguments. If you want to concede the moral argument and move on to the practical ones, say so. Unless you want to concede the moral argument, however, I’ll stay on that point.
That truth can develop more fully over time in general says nothing whatever about whether some new truth has been discovered on this topic. That’s why those sections are irrelevant to this discussion.
Yes, so? Forgiveness is an obligation of the individual; retribution is the obligation of the State. Nor, contrary to what you appear to believe, does forgiveness pay the debt that sin incurs. Even a person who is forgiven must still receive the retribution due him because of his actions.
Ender
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o_mlly
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CCC #1441 Only God forgives sins. …Will you please provide a source to back up your assertion? Is this Church teaching?
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Elvis_Guy
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I follow the Church on this…but it is rather complex…and elliptical …I had my Priest and a old Dominican Friend (separately)) nutshell it as much as possible…the Readers Digest Anser is : Very Rarely, Very Carefully, and only in Extreme Situations . …/I think it a good approach…I will give an example…a terrible thing…about 10+ years ago…a small town…about 45 minutes away…couple of Yokel Crackers were driving down a back country road … They see a Brother walking along minding his own business …so…hey it’s Friday night…yee haw! Let’s get him! …Beloved…they stopped the pickup truck…subdued the Brother … (if you are sensitive…quit reading…I’m not fooling around its as bad as it gets)… They have a chain…and they hooked it to the pickup…and wrapped the Brother to the other end…get in the truck and drive…I forgot or block out how far they got…a Sheriff saw them…and they were in the middle of a lane…he stopped them…in his words"Saw something …thought an animal had been hit…got closer…and saw some chain…and some clothing fabric and blood…" he was a Nam Vet…he threw up…/ the BAL was checked…both had consumed about 3 beers…mild head buzz but not smashed…in the trial they swaggered , laughed and one made…a racial joke…nice huh…both men are now dead my State Used Lethal Injection. From the arrest to day 0 neither showed any remorse or repentance! I view it as textbook example of a extreme case …where the death penalty fit the crime. I will not debate this…if you think of any reason more “mercy” should have been given…put it in a letter to a little town called Kilgore…send it to the Black Gentlemans Family…I don’t want to hear it…I think it was the rare , careful extreme cases…
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