Do you support the death penalty?

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Addendum to above post: I finally found the recidivism rate you reported using the first linked research report in Table 9 of that report. I agree with the figures you have provided, with the exception of the combined figure.

All you had to do was report the Table numbers. It is perfectly appropriate for people to ask how a figure was obtained (even Ph.D. researchers) and it really isn’t nice to dismiss their questions with condescension. I asked charitably. I really wanted to know where you got your figures. That is all I wanted to know and you wouldn’t even tell me. I wouldn’t have done that to you or to anyone else. 😦
 
Someone hasn’t read Evangelium Vitae, right? There’s a wealth of knowledge there for you in paragraphs 41 and 56. Simply put, however, Catholics should agree that even a murderer’s life has intrinsic value, merely because he is made in God’s image. That is why there is an issue of dignity involved. There are times when that dignity necessarily takes a back seat, such as in self-defense, but it’s strange that you see no relevance when someone mentions the criminal’s dignity of soul in relation to the death penalty.
I’d write a response but it would be an echoing of yours. So I will post the paragraphs from *Evangelium Vitae *that you have listed.

Paragraph 41:

The commandment “You shall not kill”, included and more fully expressed in the positive command of love for one’s neighbour, is reaffirmed in all its force by the Lord Jesus. To the rich young man who asks him: “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?”, Jesus replies: “If you would enter life, keep the commandments” (Mt 19:16,17). And he quotes, as the first of these: “You shall not kill” (Mt 19:18). In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus demands from his disciples a righteousness which surpasses that of the Scribes and Pharisees, also with regard to respect for life: “You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ?You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment’. But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment” (Mt 5:21-22).

By his words and actions Jesus further unveils the positive requirements of the commandment regarding the inviolability of life. These requirements were already present in the Old Testament, where legislation dealt with protecting and defending life when it was weak and threatened: in the case of foreigners, widows, orphans, the sick and the poor in general, including children in the womb (cf. Ex 21:22; 22:20-26). With Jesus these positive requirements assume new force and urgency, and are revealed in all their breadth and depth: they range from caring for the life of one’s brother (whether a blood brother, someone belonging to the same people, or a foreigner living in the land of Israel) to showing concern for the stranger, even to the point of loving one’s enemy.

A stranger is no longer a stranger for the person who must become a neighbour to someone in need, to the point of accepting responsibility for his life, as the parable of the Good Samaritan shows so clearly (cf. Lk 10:25-37). Even an enemy ceases to be an enemy for the person who is obliged to love him (cf. Mt 5:38-48; Lk 6:27-35), to “do good” to him (cf. Lk 6:27, 33, 35) and to respond to his immediate needs promptly and with no expectation of repayment (cf. Lk 6:34-35). The height of this love is to pray for one’s enemy. By so doing we achieve harmony with the providential love of God: “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust” (Mt 5:44-45; cf. Lk 6:28, 35).

Thus the deepest element of God’s commandment to protect human life is the requirement to show reverence and love for every person and the life of every person. This is the teaching which the Apostle Paul, echoing the words of Jesus, address- es to the Christians in Rome: “The commandments, ?You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet’, and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, ?You shall love your neighbour as yourself’. Love does no wrong to a neighbour; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law” (Rom 13:9-10).

Paragraph 56:

This is the context in which to place the problem of the death penalty. On this matter there is a growing tendency, both in the Church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely. The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God’s plan for man and society. The primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is “to redress the disorder caused by the offence”. Public authority must redress the violation of personal and social rights by imposing on the offender an adequate punishment for the crime, as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way authority also fulfils the purpose of defending public order and ensuring people’s safety, while at the same time offering the offender an incentive and help to change his or her behaviour and be rehabilitated.

It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.

In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: “If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”.

[Underlining added by this poster for emphasis]

I think I should have underlined Paragraph 56 completely. Thank you for referring to these two paragraphs. Church teaching is now even more clear to me and as a faithful Catholic I will continue to accept what she has taught.
 
I support the death penalty only in the following circumstances:
  • Contract Murder–for both the contractor and contractee
  • Willfull murder of a police offricer, fire fighter, prosecutor, judge in the course of their
    duties or to intimidate
  • Torture murder
  • Mass murder for terroristic purposes
 
I do not support the death penalty because I believe it condones the sin of murder. “Thou shall not kill.” I notice that God did not introduce the death penalty when the first murder was committed. What God did was send Cain away. Also many who are convicted are later found to be innocent and that is a concern also. God created man in his image and commands us to be like him and to promote his nature and principles. Likewise, I think that God has given us the freedom to choose one way or another. “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by MAN shall his blood be shed.” Could this be the emphasis? Maybe this really means that “man” is to doer and not God because “God created man in his own image” and gives governments the freedom to act in accord with their lack of civilized behavior or integrity as the cases may be. Perhaps as man becomes more civilized then capital punishment will not be preferred. I don’t think that wars between nations is the same issue as capital punishment.
 
It is perfectly appropriate for people to ask how a figure was obtained (even Ph.D. researchers) and it really isn’t nice to dismiss their questions with condescension. I asked charitably. I really wanted to know where you got your figures. That is all I wanted to know and you wouldn’t even tell me. I wouldn’t have done that to you or to anyone else. 😦
It is not perfectly appropriate for you to be lazy, expect others to make your effort for you, when you should have done it for yourself, first.

See, you went back, made the effort to look and found it, which was exactly my point.

Somehow you missed it.

We all know providing source material is a benefit. I did that and gave the linked referrence. You just wanted someone besides yourself, to go to the effort.

Sorry, not buying your continued nonsense. Everyone else, including me, would have had to look up the exact location. I don’t have instant recall as to the exact paragraph or sentence the reference may be. Note in most references, they will have the page, but you still have to search for the exact sentence.

You simply make all the effort you wished to and wanted someone else to finish your effort for you.

As I said, be thorough, first, not the third or fourth try, if ever.
 
I do not support the death penalty because I believe it condones the sin of murder. “Thou shall not kill.” I notice that God did not introduce the death penalty when the first murder was committed. What God did was send Cain away. Also many who are convicted are later found to be innocent and that is a concern also. God created man in his image and commands us to be like him and to promote his nature and principles. Likewise, I think that God has given us the freedom to choose one way or another. “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by MAN shall his blood be shed.” Could this be the emphasis? Maybe this really means that “man” is to doer and not God because “God created man in his own image” and gives governments the freedom to act in accord with their lack of civilized behavior or integrity as the cases may be. Perhaps as man becomes more civilized then capital punishment will not be preferred. I don’t think that wars between nations is the same issue as capital punishment.
CyJo:

If Cain is a good reference, is the flood, not also, where all mankind, but one family, were killed by God for any sin, most not of the murderous kind.

No, it means what it says. Man shall execute the murderer.

Of course war is different than capital punishment, but both have substantial Church support throughout the ages.

We know that “Thou shalt not kill” is not the proper translation. Soon after that comandment, God introduces many crimes/sins for which man is to be executed by man. Plus, we know that killing in self defense, defense of others and in a just war is allowed.

Form that, we must know the correct translation is “thou shalt not murder” or “not commit an illicit killing”, just as many translations have properly found.
 
It is not perfectly appropriate for you to be lazy, expect others to make your effort for you, when you should have done it for yourself, first.

See, you went back, made the effort to look and found it, which was exactly my point.

Somehow you missed it.

We all know providing source material is a benefit. I did that and gave the linked referrence. You just wanted someone besides yourself, to go to the effort.

Sorry, not buying your continued nonsense. Everyone else, including me, would have had to look up the exact location. I don’t have instant recall as to the exact paragraph or sentence the reference may be. Note in most references, they will have the page, but you still have to search for the exact sentence.

You simply make all the effort you wished to and wanted someone else to finish your effort for you.

As I said, be thorough, first, not the third or fourth try, if ever.
I am not lazy. I did not want someone else to go to the effort, although I admit I’m not sure what that even means. What I state is not nonsense. When I provide a link to a research study and someone asks me about it I answer his question(s). Every last one. The research papers from where you took your statistics are absolutely full of tables and figures, so I asked for help. I asked you for help as you presented the links to the research papers.

I don’t understand why you are constantly saying things about me that are not true. I have tried to put an end to what you are doing by putting you on my Ignore List. But I read this post and I feel that I must defend myself.

Even if what you said had been true (though it wasn’t) there is a thing called forgiveness and we are all called to it. Even me. Even you. I forgive you. Now please stop. Please. This is off-topic and I do not want to discuss posters. I want to discuss the issues. I want to discuss Church teaching. Could we please drop this and get back to the issues? In the spirit of Christian charity? I’m sorry if I have offended you in any way. That is not my intent. Will you forgive me? I don’t know if you’re Catholic but I think you are and it breaks my heart to end up like this with anyone but especially a fellow Catholic.

I have one more thing to say to you: You are a child of God, my brother in Christ, and I love you. No matter what.
 
I do not support the death penalty because I believe it condones the sin of murder. “Thou shall not kill.” I notice that God did not introduce the death penalty when the first murder was committed. What God did was send Cain away. Also many who are convicted are later found to be innocent and that is a concern also. God created man in his image and commands us to be like him and to promote his nature and principles. Likewise, I think that God has given us the freedom to choose one way or another. “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by MAN shall his blood be shed.” Could this be the emphasis? Maybe this really means that “man” is to doer and not God because “God created man in his own image” and gives governments the freedom to act in accord with their lack of civilized behavior or integrity as the cases may be. Perhaps as man becomes more civilized then capital punishment will not be preferred. I don’t think that wars between nations is the same issue as capital punishment.
That is a really good point about Cain and something I had not thought about. God even protected Cain by putting a mark on him so that people who might have killed him would not. It seems kind of strange that God would do that if man was supposed to shed Cain’s blood.

Also, the Magisterium has stated that the death penalty should not be used unless it is the only means to protect the innocent. Our understanding of God’s laws develops over time. I’m very happy that the Church is moving away from the death penalty. I hope that one day it will be outlawed completely. Thanks for your post. It has made me think. I agree with you.
 
What a broad statement. Are we to avoid eating pork because God commanded it?
You see, I have NOT ignored it. I follow the teachings of the Church.
I cannot understand these comments. On the one hand you say we are justified in ignoring the command not to eat pork (which was a dietary law, not part of God’s covenant with man - big difference) and by implication we may also ignore Gen 9:6 … but you are following the teaching of the Church. Given that the Church has historically based her position on capital punishment on that passage in Genesis, how can you say you aren’t ignoring Church teaching?
The Catechism is not saying that the death penalty is the item that is to be held for all time. … Ender, is the teaching that we must track down and kill all murderers? Or is the teaching that blood is the symbol of life, and God made man in His own image?
If the teaching was merely an explanation of the meaning of the term “blood” in this context then the statement that the teaching would be necessary for all time would be bizarre. What would be the purpose of saying a fact is necessary for all time? Why would they call a fact a teaching? It is surely not the simple explanation of the meaning of a term that is unchangeable but the meaning of the sentence. Nor does that passage explain that man is made in God’s image, rather it explains that *because *man is made in God’s image his life is sacred and this is the reason the penalty for murder is death.
But since you consider the phrase from Gen 9:6 stating “By man his [the murderer’s] blood shall be shed” to be a command, then surely we should* [apply the punishment God saw fit to impose]*, right?
This is not my interpretation, it is the Church’s. That much is clear from 2000 year of Church commentary.
However, all we have to rely on is your connecting some supposed dots regarding “redressing an offense” and “retribution.” I have amply dealt with this issue in previous posts.
Rejecting the plain meaning of words isn’t exactly dealing with the issue. Perhaps these comments will help you connect the dots.

The parts of the Catechism at issue are two consecutive passages: section 2266 on punishment in general and section 2267 on the death penalty. The section on punishment in general reaffirms the traditional formulation of the triple purpose of punishment, and it describes retribution as the first of these purposes. (R. Michael Dunnigan - canon lawyer)

In fact, the Church teaches that retributive justice is punishment’s primary purpose. (Christopher Kaczor, Loyola Marymount Univ)*

*Regarding criminal punishment, retribution is a demand of justice whereby the criminal is compelled to render his proper due in satisfaction of the order violated by his actions. (Black’s Law Dictionary, 1317, 6th Ed 1990)
Unfortunately, the USCCB is not a Magisterial body, so this is irrelevant. But even in that quote, notice that they are not holding retribution to be the primary objective. You use the word “equate” when the document simply says that it is the THIRD objective.
The USCCB is not presenting new doctrine, this document is simply explaining Church teaching, that is, they are telling us what the Church believes. It is true they did not label retribution as the primary objective but we know that much is true because 2266 tells us that; they are simply explaining what retribution means. Finally, the use of the word “third” is not meaningful inasmuch as they simply listed the objectives of punishment without prioritizing them and retribution was the third one on their un-ranked list.
Common sense says that if we are to hold retribution as the primary objective of punishment, then yes, we should track down and kill all murderers. But that’s not what our Church teaches, is it? Ergo, there is some faulty logic leading you to make these claims about retribution.
No, that is the primary objective … but JPII said that the employing capital punishment today causes more problems than is solves so, as a practical matter, we should not use it.
Please write a separate post explaining how the Catechism identifies retribution as the PRIMARY objective!!
I would like to but I am just leaving on a trip and probably won’t be able to get to this until next week.
it’s strange that you see no relevance when someone mentions the criminal’s dignity of soul in relation to the death penalty.
Not what I said. I asked for an explanation of why executing a person for murder is an offense against his dignity.

Ender
 
Ender, I hope you have a nice trip and that it’s for pleasure, not business (or that if it’s business you can work some fun time in). I hope I got this in before you left. Have fun! 🙂
 
I support the death penalty only in the following circumstances:
  • Contract Murder–for both the contractor and contractee
  • Willfull murder of a police offricer, fire fighter, prosecutor, judge in the course of their
    duties or to intimidate
  • Torture murder
  • Mass murder for terroristic purposes
May I please ask what it is about these particular types of murder that leads you to support the death penalty in these cases? Is it because these crimes are particularly heinous (they are particularly heinous IMO)? Why not mass murder without terroristic purposes (I’d also like to know what “terroristic purposes” means to you, as some people would classify all mass murder as terrorist activity)?

What if the people who allegedly commit these crimes and are found guilty in a court of law can be segregated from all innocent people and kept in prison for the rest of their lives with absolutely no possibility of parole? Would you still support the death penalty if that could be achieved?
 
I cannot understand these comments. On the one hand you say we are justified in ignoring the command not to eat pork (which was a dietary law, not part of God’s covenant with man - big difference) and by implication we may also ignore Gen 9:6 … but you are following the teaching of the Church. Given that the Church has historically based her position on capital punishment on that passage in Genesis, how can you say you aren’t ignoring Church teaching?
We are not* ignoring* the command to avoid pork; we have new command from our Lord making these foods clean. The old law also required us to keep holy the sabbath, and the new command from our Church is to observe the Sunday obligation. So the question becomes twofold: how is it that you claim this passage from Genesis to be a command that we must track down and kill all murderers; and, how is it that this (supposed) OT command for death is an absolute?

Also notice that you wrote that the “Church has historically based her position on capital punishment on that passage in Genesis.” What is that position? You seem to think that the Church’s teaching requires the death penalty (you’ve said this in previous posts), unless there is a prudential reason to avoid this command.

This last point I made brings up another question: If this passage from Genesis gives an absolute command, as you claim, then why is it acceptable to put the command aside, even for “prudential” reasons?
This is not my interpretation, it is the Church’s. That much is clear from 2000 year of Church commentary.
Rejecting the plain meaning of words isn’t exactly dealing with the issue. Perhaps these comments will help you connect the dots.

The parts of the Catechism at issue are two consecutive passages: section 2266 on punishment in general and section 2267 on the death penalty. The section on punishment in general reaffirms the traditional formulation of the triple purpose of punishment, and it describes retribution as the first of these purposes. (R. Michael Dunnigan - canon lawyer)

In fact, the Church teaches that retributive justice is punishment’s primary purpose. (Christopher Kaczor, Loyola Marymount Univ)*

*Regarding criminal punishment, retribution is a demand of justice whereby the criminal is compelled to render his proper due in satisfaction of the order violated by his actions. (Black’s Law Dictionary, 1317, 6th Ed 1990)
Excellent… let’s take these quotes. If we do accept that they put retribution at the top of the objectives, you still inject your own ideas by implying that retribution EQUATES with killing the offender. This, too, has been discussed; recall the use of the word “proportionate,” whereas “equal to” is never used in Magisterial documents.
Black’s Law Dictionary states that retribution is “satisfaction of the order violated” but you infer that satisfaction is only obtained through taking the life of the offender.
The USCCB is not presenting new doctrine, this document is simply explaining Church teaching, that is, they are telling us what the Church believes. It is true they did not label retribution as the primary objective but we know that much is true because 2266 tells us that…
Hold on; where exactly in 2266 does it say that retribution is the primary objective? It doesn’t, of course. It says that the primary aim is to “redress the disorder.” Why do you say this is EQUAL to retribution, which is EQUAL to putting the offender to death? This is why I say you are connecting dots that aren’t there. Next time, let’s stick with what the text actually says!
Not what I said. I asked for an explanation of why executing a person for murder is an offense against his dignity.
Well, it comes down to this: do you agree that a murderer’s life has any dignity by virtue of being human? If no, then of course there is no offense against his dignity. If yes, then it’s quite incongruous to say that a human being – even one who has snuffed another life – suddenly loses ALL elements of dignity. If that were true, then a murderer who tries to repent really shouldn’t bother because there is no hope for that person; he is no longer in the image and likeness of God.
If you agree that there is dignity in that person, then to kill that person is still somewhat of an offense to dignity – obviously not as great as the act of murder – because it denies the possibility of future repentance. This is why the Church clearly states that the death penalty can be justified but only as a last resort, contrary to your idea that it is to be the first resort.
 
Some commentary on Genesis 9:6.

Capital Punishment
newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm

A Matter of Justice: A Truly Catholic Look at Capital Punishment
By Mario Derksen
catholicapologetics.info/morality/deathpenalty/punishment.htm

Catholicism & Capital Punishment
AVERY CARDINAL DULLES
catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0461.html

CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
By REV. JOHN F. MCDONALD, L.C.L.
catholicpamphlets.net/pamphlets/CAPITAL%20PUNISHMENT.pdf

Proper transations
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_shall_not_murder

I know, LS, you may have to read them. It’s worth it.
 
Saint (& Pope) Pius V, “The just use of (executions), far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this (Fifth) Commandment which prohibits murder.” “The Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent” (1566).

“Paramount obedience” What do you think that means?

Pope Pius XII: “When it is a question of the execution of a man condemned to death it is then reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned of the benefit of life, in expiation of his fault, when already, by his fault, he has dispossessed himself of the right to live.” 9/14/52.

“He has he dispossessed himself of the right to live.” What do you think that means?

God: “You shall not accept indemnity in place of the life of a murderer who deserves the death penalty; he must be put to death.” Numbers 35:31 (NAB) full context www.usccb.org/nab/bible/numbers/numbers35.htm

“he must be put to death” What do you think it means?
 
I have yet to read all the stuff given by Dudley Sharp, but I especially like the one from Cardinal Dulles. By the way, Dudley, notice that he never says that the DP is mandatory. He is rejecting the modern notion that the DP is never warranted. Every Catholic should agree with him. However, is it not equally wrong to say that the DP is required? That is certainly not supported by the Cardinal’s writings.

From his Catholicism & Capital Punishment: “Giving magisterial authority to the death penalty, Pope Innocent III required disciples of Peter Waldo seeking reconciliation with the Church to accept the proposition: ‘The secular power can, without mortal sin, exercise judgment of blood, provided that it punishes with justice, not out of hatred, with prudence, not precipitation.’”

Notice that the pope stated that a government CAN carry out the death penalty, not that it MUST.
 
Saint (& Pope) Pius V, “The just use of (executions), far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this (Fifth) Commandment which prohibits murder.” “The Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent” (1566).

“Paramount obedience” What do you think that means?
Recall that others in this thread have been quick to dismiss the teachings of Pope John Paul II and our current Catechism, that the DP is not a requirement. So I’m curious as to what weight we should put to this statements you give from these earlier popes? Are Catechisms and popes from different centuries allowed to oppose each other’s teachings, as implied in this thread? Or are we to accept the mind of the Church and how she presents a teaching?
God: “You shall not accept indemnity in place of the life of a murderer who deserves the death penalty; he must be put to death.” Numbers 35:31 (NAB)

“he must be put to death” What do you think it means?
That in itself is proof for capital punishment to be mandatory? May I take other OT commands and describe them as mandatory for us?

Also, a grammatical point can be made on this passage from Numbers. Notice it says “a murderer who deserves the death penalty.” It might have a different meaning if it said “a murderer, who deserves the death penalty.” Notice the comma, which would help your position but isn’t in the translation given. I’m not really hinging my whole position on this – I’m just raising the question. Perhaps an expert in the original Hebrew could speak to this subtle difference, which does affect the interpretation.
 
Also, a grammatical point can be made on this passage from Numbers. Notice it says “a murderer who deserves the death penalty.” It might have a different meaning if it said “a murderer, who deserves the death penalty.” Notice the comma, which would help your position but isn’t in the translation given. I’m not really hinging my whole position on this – I’m just raising the question. Perhaps an expert in the original Hebrew could speak to this subtle difference, which does affect the interpretation.
I noticed that immediately when I read the passage the first time. Without the phrase “who deserves the death penalty” the passage would read: “You shall not accept indemnity in place of the life of a murderer; he must be put to death.” That is a clear, concise statement. So why was the phrase “who deserves the death penalty” made part of the passage? To me it is clear that it is to differentiate between those murderers who deserve the death penalty and those who do not. Ergo, as this is the word of God, it is clear that some murderers deserve the death penalty and some do not (assuming, of course, that the translation is correct). And that supports the current teaching of the Church as reflected in the current CCC.
 
Addendum to (my) above post:

I’m not claiming that this is Church teaching. These are only my thoughts and my opinion on the passage noted. I just wanted to make that clear. I apologize for any confusion.
 
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