Do you support the death penalty?

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My point is that you narrowly say that retribution must be “it” because it is the only thing that speaks to the past event, but I read the “disorder” clause a bit more broadly. So it’s a tad over the top to say that the Church directly teaches that retribution is the primary objective of capital punishment.
I’m travelling now and don’t have access to all of my notes so I’ll have to come back to this point, but I think I can show that it is retribution that is the primary objective. In any event I think it is safe to say that defense against future crimes cannot be the primary objective as this does nothing whatever to redress anything at all. At a minimum we should be able to agree that 2267 ignores the primary objective of punishment - whatever we finally decide that means.

Ender
 
I’m just replying something off the top of my head, and I didn’t read all of the responses, just in case this has already been said.

Maybe death penalty should be allowed IF 1) the person’s guilt is TOTALLY beyond doubt AND 2) it is impossible to lock the person up for life.

I am of the opinion that both of those must be true for the death penalty to be given to this person. However, someone might say, well, you weren’t at the trial so you don’t know the evidence…blah blah blah. Yeah, that might be a good point, to which I have no response. However, as for my 2nd point, I must ask this, totally out of ignorance - I honestly just don’t know - is it really that hard just to give someone a life sentence which can’t be retracted (unless proven innocent)? Correct me if I’m wrong - the church supports the death penalty but basically only as a last resort - if nothing else can protect society from the person. So why is it that so many people are on death row? Are all of these people honestly so harmful to society, even locked up, that they must be killed? Yeah, not everyone’s Catholic, so not everyone will have the same view. But still, the question of why the person can’t just be given a life prison sentence for is really what has me kind of confused.
 
But still, the question of why the person can’t just be given a life prison sentence for is really what has me kind of confused.
I’ve asked myself this quite a few times and it’s really because there will always be a possibility that a prison can’t contain such a person. There’s also the possibility of corruption within the justice system as well as the bad mix it makes when it tries to find legal loopholes.
 
I’m travelling now and don’t have access to all of my notes so I’ll have to come back to this point, but I think I can show that it is retribution that is the primary objective. In any event I think it is safe to say that defense against future crimes cannot be the primary objective as this does nothing whatever to redress anything at all. At a minimum we should be able to agree that 2267 ignores the primary objective of punishment - whatever we finally decide that means.
I didn’t mean that defense against future crimes was a primary objective. The primary objective is to heal the disorders caused by the crime. We differ in how we interpret “disorders.” It need not be referring to a purely past-tense event; it refers to the damage caused by that event.
 
I voted NO, but only as a general answer. I think there is no reason to use the DP on garden variety murderers that can be securely imprisoned. But I also don’t think there was any moral problem with the execution of Osama Bin Laden since imprisoning the man would have almost certainly lead to violent attempts to free him by his fanatical followers.

But I think cases like OBL are exceedingly rare. Perhaps some mafia cases and cartel leaders who have committed organized killing campaigns.

But there was never any real reason to execute guys like John Wayne Gaycie.
 
i have not taken the time to read all of the posts in this thread, but i thought i would add here that capital punishment, at least in the united states (and likely elsewhere), is extremely expensive to society.

outside of the question of right and wrong when sentencing a person to death is the question of how much it costs the state (the country) to prosecute a person under the death penalty, given all the legal hurdles involved. far cheaper and arguably more humane (not to mention safer, given the fact that quite a few people get executed who are not even guilty of the crimes they are accused of) is life imprisonment. finally, there is the fact that criminologists can learn from some death penalty-type criminals facts about their lives an upbringings, etc which can help law enforcement with criminal profiling (such as profiling of serial killers and serial rapists, terrorists, etc).
 
I think there is no reason to use the DP on garden variety murderers that can be securely imprisoned. …
This is the perception of capital punishment that I reject. It is a common perception but what I think it shows is just how completely we have lost any sense of the heinousness of murder. The reason the Church has supported the use of capital punishment is explained in Gen 9:6 - because the victim was made in the image of God. We have come a long way from that understanding to the believing that there are “garden variety murderers.”
But there was never any real reason to execute guys like John Wayne Gaycie.
I suspect it is true that Gaycie, unlike a lot of others, could be safely imprisoned without risk to other prisoners, guards, or society at large. He is also a serial killer who committed appalling crimes. Why are we so concerned about protecting ourselves and so indifferent about applying the punishment appropriate to his crimes? I doubt that most people even know how many people he killed. Worse, it doesn’t even matter. Five? Ten? Twenty? What difference does it make? We’ll just lock him up to protect ourselves from him and all be happy … all, perhaps, except for those like myself who believe that the punishment needs to be commensurate with the severity of the crime, and that prison alone does not rise to that level.

Ender
 
This is the perception of capital punishment that I reject. It is a common perception but what I think it shows is just how completely we have lost any sense of the heinousness of murder. The reason the Church has supported the use of capital punishment is explained in Gen 9:6 - because the victim was made in the image of God. We have come a long way from that understanding to the believing that there are “garden variety murderers.”
Are you sure you want to defend the notion that we must use the Old Testament as our guide for how to mete out punishment?
 
anyone reading this thread who supports the death penalty ought to visit the website www.innocenceproject.org and read about some of the people who have been put to death or nearly put to death for things they didn’t even do! the fact that innocents are murdered by the state with any frequency at all ought to be grounds enough for abolishing the death penalty in my opinion, outside of the facts that the death penalty has been proved ineffective in deterring criminals and outrageously expensive in american society given the long and drawn out trials involved in capital cases.
 
Are you sure you want to defend the notion that we must use the Old Testament as our guide for how to mete out punishment?
I’m sure I want to use the Church as the guide and it is the Church that points to Gen 9:6, not me. With all the focus given to CCC 2267 it seems that most people are unaware of CCC 2260. I am curious to know how you would satisfy both of those sections. (Nor is 2260 the only reference to Gen 9:6. That is the passage the Church has always referred to as the basis for her position on capital punishment - along with Rm 13:1-4.) I am, though, struck by your implication that there is something wrong with using the Old Testament as a moral guide. The Church certainly has no such reservations.

Ender
 
Troy Davis has been executed. I guess the Capital Punishment supporters are celebrating now.
No celebration.

The just execution of a murderer is a sad event and I always am thinking about the innocent murder vicitm and the crimes against them.

Sad, indeed.

Justice was served, which is a good, but no cause for celebration, but reflection.
 
Are you sure you want to defend the notion that we must use the Old Testament as our guide for how to mete out punishment?
Jesus did.

Jesus never rejected the death penalty.

In fact, he reinforced its use.

God/Jesus: ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother must certainly be put to death.’ Matthew 15:4

This is a New Testament command, which references several of the same from the OT.

and the Genesis passage is for all peoples and all times:

The biblical foundation for the death penalty is found in Genesis 9:5-6 and is based, specifically, upon “shedding blood”.

2260: “For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning… Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.” “This teaching remains necessary for all time.”

and

Jesus: “So Pilate said to (Jesus), “Do you not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you and I have power to crucify you?” Jesus answered (him), “You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above.” John 19:10-11

Jesus: Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.” The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” (Jesus) replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Luke 23: 39-43

It is not the nature of our deaths, but the state of salvation at the time of death which is most important.

Jesus: “You have heard the ancients were told, ˜YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER” and “Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court”. But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, “Raca”, shall be guilty before the supreme court and whoever shall say, “You fool”, shall be guilty enough to go into fiery hell.” Matthew 5:17-22.

Fiery hell is a considerable more severe sanction than any earthly death.

The Holy Spirit: God, through the power and justice of the Holy Spirit, executed both Ananias and his wife, Saphira. Their crime? Lying to the Holy Spirit – to God – through Peter. Acts 5:1-11.

No trial, no appeals, just death on the spot.

God: “You shall not accept indemnity in place of the life of a murderer who deserves the death penalty; he must be put to death.” Numbers 35:31 (NAB) full context usccb.org/nab/bible/numbers/numbers35.htm

For murder, there is no mitigation from a death sentence.
 
anyone reading this thread who supports the death penalty ought to visit the website www.innocenceproject.org and read about some of the people who have been put to death or nearly put to death for things they didn’t even do!
whitecrayon:

I would ask that you fact check the innocence claims.

Anti death penalty deceptions, regarding “innocents” are a standard and well known component of their startegy, as has been revealed over decades.

Troy Davis: Worldwide anti death penalty deceptions, rightly, failed

“Smoke and mirrors” - that is what the federal judge called Davis’ innocence claims, after he held the innocence evidentiary hearing ordered by the US Supreme Court.

And that is precisely what the save Troy Davis campaign is, as easily seen by anoyone who wishes to fact check.

Innocence Deceptions and the Anti Death Penalty Movement
Dudley Sharp, sharpjfa@aol.com

The false innocence claims by anti death penalty activists are a legendary part of their strategy.
  1. a) Troy Davis: Misleading anti death penalty campaign
    homicidesurvivors.com/2011/09/18/troy-davis-misleading-anti-death-penalty-campaign.aspx
    b) Cop Killer is media’s latest baby seal
    wnd.com/?pageId=347317
  2. “The Innocent Executed: Deception & Death Penalty Opponents”
    homicidesurvivors.com/2009/10/08/the-innocent-executed-deception–death-penalty-opponents–draft.aspx
  3. The 130 (now 138) death row “innocents” scam
    homicidesurvivors.com/2009/03/04/fact-checking-issues-on-innocence-and-the-death-penalty.aspx
  4. Sister Helen Prejean & the death penalty: A Critical Review"
    homicidesurvivors.com/2009/05/04/sister-helen-prejean–the-death-penalty-a-critical-review.aspx
  5. “At the Death House Door” Can Rev. Carroll Pickett be trusted?"
    homicidesurvivors.com/2009/01/30/fact-checking-is-very-welcome.aspx
  6. “Cameron Todd Willingham: Another Media Meltdown”, A Collection of Articles
    homicidesurvivors.com/categories/Cameron%20Todd%20Willingham.aspx
 
capital punishment, at least in the united states (and likely elsewhere), is extremely expensive to society.
True.

But there is no reason that it should be more expensive than LWOP.

Death Penalty: Saving Costs over LWOP?
Dudley Sharp, contact info below

Can any jurisdiction have a responsible death penalty protocol whereby the costs are similar or less expensive than life without parole cases?

Of course.

Virginia has executed 65% of those sent to death row in 5-7 years after sentencing, because of strict timelines for thorough appeals, a process validated through both state and federal courts.

It is crucial to check the claims and methodology of the death penalty cost studies. Often they are either very deceptive or inaccurate, just as some studies which compare the costs of the death penalty vs life without parole.

Instead of an apples to apples comparison, we often find a kangaroos to apples comparison.
  1. “Death Penalty Cost Studies: Saving Costs over LWOP”
    homicidesurvivors.com/2010/03/21/death-penalty-cost-studies-saving-costs-over-lwop.aspx
  2. “Duke (North Carolina) Death Penalty Cost Study: Let’s be honest”
    prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/06/duke-north-carolina-death-penalty-cost.html
    (NOTE: A 2009 study, by one of these authors, found that by ending the death penalty NC might save $11 million , or about 1 penny ever third day/person. I have not read it, yet, but based upon this professors prior study, reviewed here, the death penalty likely saves money.)
  3. Cost Savings: The Death Penalty
    homicidesurvivors.com/2009/05/07/cost-savings-the-death-penalty.aspx
  4. See 4th comment down within comments:
The California Death Penalty Fraud:

Posted by dudleysharp on August 19, 2010 at 4:35 AM | Report this comment

Rebuttal to ACLU:
and A Rebuttal to “Cut This: The Death Penalty”(1)
Death Penalty vs Life Costs in California
eastbayexpress.com/ebx/are-capital-punishments-financial-costs-worth-it/Content?oid=2003765

More cost reviews upon request.

What are the costs of not having the death penalty?

“The Death Penalty: More Protection for Innocents”
homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/05/the-death-penalty-more-protection-for-innocents.aspx

27 recent studies finding for deterrence, Criminal Justice Legal Foundation
cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPDeterrence.html

“Deterrence and the Death Penalty: A Reply to Radelet and Lacock”
homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/02/deterrence-and-the-death-penalty-a-reply-to-radelet-and-lacock.aspx

“Death Penalty, Deterrence & Murder Rates: Let’s be clear”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/03/death-penalty-deterrence-murder-rates.html

A Death Penalty Red Herring: The Inanity and Hypocrisy of Perfection, Lester Jackson Ph.D.,
tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=102909A

What is the cost of not seeking justice?

ETHICAL/RELIGIOUS SUPPORT FOR THE DEATH PENALTY

“Death Penalty Support: Religious and Secular Scholars”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/07/death-penalty-support-modern-catholic.html

“Death Penalty Polls: Support Remains Very High - 80%”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/07/death-penalty-polls-support-remains.html
 
I’m opposed (though many Brits are in favour according to some polls depending on how the question is phrased, but would often be reluctant to decide matters of life and death on a jury I suspect). Before England abolished hanging for murder in 1967 it was worse than the present US system: the penalty was mandatory unless the Home Secretary advised the Queen to commute, and convicts were hanged after a few months (God knows how many innocents were hanged).

Apart from being opposed in principle, I think the fallibility of human justice is the most persuasive argument against. I’m willing to accept it may have been necessary in earlier societies due to a lack of resources etc., or in Lord of the Flies desert island situations, but agree with the official Catholic line that we now have imprisonment - if necessary life without parole - as an alternative.
 
{QUOTE]Similarly, Alabama officials noted that their life without parole inmates commit 50% fewer disciplinary offenses per capita than all other types of inmates combined. [68] {/QUOTE]

Similarly, all people note that executed murderers commit infinitely fewer disciplinary offenses per capita than all other types of inmates combined.

Of all human endeavors that put innocents at risk, is there one with a better record of sparing innocent lives than the US death penalty? Unlikely.
  1. “The Death Penalty: More Protection for Innocents”
    homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/05/the-death-penalty-more-protection-for-innocents.aspx
  2. Opponents in capital punishment have blood on their hands, Dennis Prager, 11/29/05, townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2005/11/29/opponents_in_capital_punishment_have_blood_on_their_hands
  3. “A Death Penalty Red Herring: The Inanity and Hypocrisy of Perfection”, Lester Jackson Ph.D.,
    tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=102909A
 
No no no no and NO. I do not under any circumstances support the killing of a born human being. 2 wrongs do not make a right. Juries can be wrong. Christ taught against an eye for eye for revenge but instead taught us to turn the other cheek. For those who are faithful Catholics they have CCC teaching them the Church supports the death penalty in only very rare if not non existent cases. That alone I would think should be enough for any faithful Catholic to not support the death penalty as a general rule. With what the law of the land should be regarding abortion on the otherhand, though I know many like to blur the definitions, there are definitions of embryo, a fetus, and a baby. There’s the question to wrestle with in a secular society of plural beliefs as to what the law of the land should be concerning the rights of the unborn vs the rights and privacy of the woman concerning her own body and faith beliefs. Things like ensoulment and personhood rights can also come into play. So a democratic society attempts to come up with a law of the land regarding that very polarizing issue. The result may not satisfy everyone. That’s part of what it means to live in a democracy. In the US there has been Roe as that law for nearly 4 decades now. In any case the OP was correct. The 2 are “way different” cases.
 
Apart from being opposed in principle, I think the fallibility of human justice is the most persuasive argument against.
I think a lot of people feel exactly this way - which is why the anti-death penalty folks make such a deal of implying that scads of innocent people have been executed. The fact that this isn’t true really doesn’t matter if people believe it or are made uneasy by the possibility that it may be true.

As I’ve pointed out before, however, not executing the guilty does not protect the innocent, rather it increases the number of inocent who will die as a result of that decision. If your concern is for the innocent then you should support more executions, not fewer.

Ender
 
No celebration.

The just execution of a murderer is a sad event and I always am thinking about the innocent murder vicitm and the crimes against them.
How do you know he was guilty? Even Pope Benedikt XVI was among those who called upon the courts to grant Davis a new trial. Most people doubt that which is the problem with Capital Punishment: make a mistake and you kill an innocent person.
Justice was served.
No. Murder doesn’t justify murder and if he was innocent, what is the justification?
Jesus never rejected the death penalty.

In fact, he reinforced its use.
I bet you can justify EVERYTHING with twisting the Bible. I bet slave owners in the 19th century and conservatives who were against equal rights for black people in the 20th century(and even today) quoted the Bible to justify that too.:rolleyes:
 
For those who are faithful Catholics they have CCC teaching them the Church supports the death penalty in only very rare if not non existent cases (to defend society). That alone I would think should be enough for any faithful Catholic to not support the death penalty as a general rule. .
That is a criminological issue which can be factually assesed.

Had EV been properly thought through (3,4), it would have concluded that innocents were better protected with the death penalty and, therefore, it is a greater defender of society and, as such EV would have not created the errors which were then wrongly put into the Catechism.

2267 "Today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender ‘today … are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’ John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae 56).

The Catechism and EV are, hereby, using the secular standard of penal security as a means to outweigh justice, balance, redress, reformation, expiation and prior Church teachings. 2267 cannot stand.

This is such a poorly considered prudential judgement as to negate its “prudential” moniker.

Let’s look at “the means at the State’s disposal”.

All villages, towns, cities, states, territories, countries and broad government unions have widely varying degrees of police protections and prison security. Murderers escape, harm and murder in prison and are given such leeway as to murder and/or harm, again, because of “mercy” to the murderer, leniency and irresponsibility to murderers, who are released or otherwise given the opportunity to cause catastrophic losses to the innocent when such innocents are harmed and murdered by unjust aggressors. (4)

Incarcerated prisoners plan murders, escapes and all types of criminal activity, using proxies or cell phones in directing free world criminal activities. All of this is well known by all, with the apparent exception of the authors of the Catechism. (4)

Some countries are so idiotic, reckless and callous as to allow terrorists to sign pledges that they will not harm again and then they are released, bound only by their word, a worthless pledge resulting in more innocent blood. (4)

It has always been so.

The Catechism, as does EV, avoids the many realities whereby the unjust aggressor has too many opportunities to harm again. The authors of the Catechism appear to have no grasp of reality? (4)

The only known method of rendering a criminal “unable to inflict harm” is execution. “Unable to inflict harm” (2265) has the same meaning as “impossible to do harm”.

In addition, there exists the clear conflict between (1) this unprecedented and unjustified restriction on the death penalty and (2) “Preserving the common good requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm” found earlier in this same Catechism.

Which is it? Is the Church going to require “rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm” or is the Church going to require that we do everything but render the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm?

Has a prudential judgement ever been placed in a Catechism, before? If not, the current one would seem to make the reasons clear and would denounce any possible repeat of that error.

footnotes to follow
 
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