Do you support the death penalty?

[Ender]

It is astonishing to me that punishment is held aloft above mercy and forgiveness.

It is an individual responsibility to forgive; it is the states responsibility to punish crime. It is an obligation of the state, not an option to be selectively administered.

God will forgive the sin of murder.

You don’t appear to recognize that forgiveness does not mean that punishment is eliminated.

The Old Testament, however, shows us how normal it is to undergo reparative punishment after forgiveness. God, after describing himself as “a God merciful and gracious … forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin”, adds: “yet not without punishing” (JPII)

We should do the same, otherwise we are not being as God-like as we can be.

Fine, but let’s at least understand what that means:

*God’s fatherly love does not rule out punishment, even if the latter must always be understood as part of a merciful justice that re-establishes the violated order for the sake of man’s own good (JPII)

*So if God forgives - yet punishes - surely we should do the same. The individual should forgive, the state must punish.

I’ve asked this before (not to you) and received no response so I am going to ask again. What about Cain? Surely he shed the blood of Abel, yet God put a mark upon him to protect him from being executed. If whoever sheds the blood of man shall have his blood shed why didn’t God allow that to happen to Cain? Shouldn’t Cain have been punished? Wouldn’t that have been justice? We know for a fact that Cain was guilty of murder, yet God spared him!

I have acknowledged that there are exceptions and that specific circumstances can alter the consequences. The reason I don’t give any consideration to the example of Cain in this context is that the Church doesn’t. She has not used this story in determining or explaining her position on capital punishment and it seems reasonable to assume that she doesn’t consider it relevant to that discussion.

Ender

 

[Ender]

I agree with Holly. And I don’t believe that this makes the Church less moral than secular societies which disavow such action. It actually makes the Church more moral because it extols the virtues of mercy and forgiveness - virtues taught to us by Jesus.

I think you misunderstand the point being made. I do not for a moment believe that the Church teaches via 2267 or anywhere else that people may be executed to provide security for others. What is implied by 2267 is that retribution alone is not sufficient and that retribution only in combination with the inability to provide security in any other way suffices to justify capital punishment. That some have come to believe that the Church sanctions executions simply for security purposes shows how badly 2267 has misled people on this subject.

If we don’t need to take the God-given life of a human being we shouldn’t. I’m amazed that people exist who believe we should.

You misstate the situation. No one is calling for the taking of life where it isn’t necessary … what we disagree about is what constitutes necessity. That it may not be necessary to afford security says nothing about whether it is necessary to meet the obligations of justice.

Mercy to the guilty is God-like, not cruelty to anyone.

This is also incorrect. Mercy is not something that should be granted unconditionally.

*In no passage of the Gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence towards evil, towards scandals, towards injury or insult. In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness. *(JPII)

Ender

 

[billsnaer]

I agree that the absence of the death penalty can constitute a failure to protect innocent human life. I think perhaps we have been talking past each other (and probably my fault).

LittleSoldier: Yes, we probably are not as far apart in our viewpoints as it first appeared. I have fully expressed everything I have to say on this subject, so now is a good time for me to withdraw from the discussion.
Thanks for your courteous exchanges. All best wishes for a Happy Christmas and a rewarding New Year!
Bill

 

[Yerusalyim]

In principle I support the death penalty…however, how it’s carried out in the US is biased against the poor.

 

[Ender]

In principle I support the death penalty…however, how it’s carried out in the US is biased against the poor.

Assuming your claim is correct, it would nonetheless seem the real question is whether those who are sentenced to death deserve that punishment, not whether other equally deserving scoundrels are spared. I would prefer that all who deserve such punishment receive it but I am not in favor of increasing the number of improper sentences simply because some who should receive capital sentences don’t. Assume that only half those who ought to receive the death penalty actually receive that sentence. Where is the argument that we are better off getting all such sentences wrong rather than getting half of them right?

Ender

 

[LittleSoldier]

I think you misunderstand the point being made. I do not for a moment believe that the Church teaches via 2267 or anywhere else that people may be executed to provide security for others. What is implied by 2267 is that retribution alone is not sufficient and that retribution only in combination with the inability to provide security in any other way suffices to justify capital punishment. That some have come to believe that the Church sanctions executions simply for security purposes shows how badly 2267 has misled people on this subject.

I get a feeling that you have somehow managed to transmogrify the words of the CCC into some bizarre sort of mathematical equation which you feel must equate on both sides of the equal sign. You’ve taken the spirit of the law away and substituted some sort of mangled letter. You appear to have forgotten about Jesus’ message of forgiveness and love. I wonder why that is so. I find it very sad.

You misstate the situation. No one is calling for the taking of life where it isn’t necessary … what we disagree about is what constitutes necessity. That it may not be necessary to afford security says nothing about whether it is necessary to meet the obligations of justice.

It’s very simple. If it is not necessary in order to protect the innocent, no life should be taken. The legal obligations of justice can be met by lifetime imprisonment, which is a substantial punishment in and of itself. And when the prisoner dies God is there to provide perfect justice using whatever means He wishes, but always with the power of omniscience and His love.

This is also incorrect. Mercy is not something that should be granted unconditionally.

Oh no, absolutely mercy is something that should be granted unconditionally! In every single case, always and forever!

In no passage of the Gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence towards evil, towards scandals, towards injury or insult. In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness.

Ender

Who said anything about forgiveness (or mercy as its source) meaning indulgence towards evil, scandal, injury, or insult (and did you write all that yourself or is this a quote with no acknowledgement given to the author?). Do you know what forgiveness is? What real forgiveness is? “Forgive them, Father, for they do not know what they are doing.” THAT is what forgiveness means - no demands for satisfaction or compensation for injury or satisfaction for insult. Forgiveness depending on any of those things is sorry forgiveness indeed. Forgiveness comes from the heart, from love, from obedience to God, from a desire to be as God-like as possible, from the second Great Commandment of the Christ. Forgiveness comes from love which comes from God.

Without it you, I, and every single human being ever born (with perhaps the exception of Mary) would be damned to hell and deservedly so. Most crimes don’t show up on police ledgers or are presented in courtrooms; most crimes are just plain ugly sins which hurt others (and ourselves) and bring more evil into the world.

Your attempt in a another post to obliterate the significance of Cain shows how you pick and choose Scripture passages, using only those who fit your needs. The Church put the bible together; ergo, the story of Cain is of immense importance to the Church (even if of no importance to you).

I am withdrawing from this thread as I do not wish to dwell on such unhappy topics when the celebration of the birth of the Messiah draws near and for reasons of charity. I will give you a Christmas present, Ender - a wish for love, peace, and forgiveness to you and yours for the following year. :christmastree1:

 

[LittleSoldier]

I am following the excellent example of Bill and withdrawing from this thread. This should be a time of joy and expectation of glory - not a time to be wallowing in such unhappy ideas as are being thrown around.

I pray that everyone has a peaceful, joyous Christmas! May the Lord’s love shine through us all, may we be beacons of His love, may we forgive all who have hurt us, and may we all become closer to Jesus as we celebrate His becoming God-incarnate, son of Mary, father, brother, and Messiah to us all.

You are all in my prayers and I ask that you pray for me.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!! :christmastree1::snowing:

:grouphug: :harp: :heaven:

 

[dudleysharp]

The belief that 2267 allows executions to achieve security makes the Church less moral than secular societies which disavow such action. This was the reason I challenged Holly’s statement.

Ender

This is a major problem for the Church, switching from a moral position which was supportive of the death penalty for 2000 years, to a utilitarian position, defense of society.

However, what the Church also failed to realize is that “defense of society” also favors more executions. With both moral and utilitrian positions supporting more executions, the Church should be, as well.

The Death Penalty: Saving Innocent Lives

Innocence

Of all human endeavors that put innocents at risk, is there one with a better record of sparing innocent lives than the US death penalty? Unlikely.

1. “The Death Penalty: More Protection for Innocents”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/05/the-death-penalty-more-protection-for-innocents.aspx
2. Opponents in capital punishment have blood on their hands, Dennis Prager, 11/29/05, townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2005/11/29/opponents_in_capital_punishment_have_blood_on_their_hands
3. “A Death Penalty Red Herring: The Inanity and Hypocrisy of Perfection”, Lester Jackson Ph.D.,
   tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=102909A

The false innocence claims by anti death penalty activists are both blatant and legendary. Some examples:

1. “The Innocent Executed: Deception & Death Penalty Opponents”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/10/08/the-innocent-executed-deception–death-penalty-opponents–draft.aspx
2. The 130 (now 139) death row “innocents” scam
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/03/04/fact-checking-issues-on-innocence-and-the-death-penalty.aspx
3. “Exoneration Inflation: Justice Scalia’s Concurrence in Kansas v. March”, by Ward Campbell, Supervising Deputy Attorney General, California Department of Justice, p 49, The Journal of the
   Institute for the Advancement of Criminal Justice, Issue 2, Summer 2008,
   cjlf.org/files/CampbellExonerationInflation2008.pdf
4. “The innocence tactic: Unreliable studies and disinformation”, reports By United States Congress, Senate, 107th Congress, 2d Session, Calender no 731, Report 107-315. The Innocence Protection Act of 2002, (iv) The innocence tactic: Unreliable studies and disinformation, p 65-69, alturl.com/6j7oc
5. “The Innocent and the Shammed”, Joshua Marquis, Published in New York Times, 1/26/2006
   coastda.blogspot.com/2006/01/innocent-and-shammed-nyt-oped.html
6. “Troy Davis & The Innocent Frauds of the anti death penalty lobby”, prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2011/11/troy-davis-innocent-frauds-of-anti.html
7. “The Myth Of Innocence”, Joshua Marquis, published in the Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology - 3/31/2005, Northwestern University School of Law, Chicago, Illinois
   joshmarquis.blogspot.com/2005/03/myth-of-innocence.html

Deterrence

Of course the death penalty deters.

All prospects of a negative outcome deter some. It is a truism. The death penalty, the most severe of criminal sanctions, is the least likely of all criminal sanctions to violate that truism.

1. 28 recent studies finding for deterrence, Criminal Justice Legal Foundation
   cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPDeterrence.htm
2. “Deterrence & the Death Penalty: A Reply to Radelet and Lacock”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/02/deterrence-and-the-death-penalty-a-reply-to-radelet-and-lacock.aspx
3. “Death Penalty, Deterrence & Murder Rates: Let’s be clear”
   prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/03/death-penalty-deterrence-murder-rates.html
4. This is out of date, but corrects a number of the misconceptions about deterrence.
   “Death Penalty and Deterrence”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2006/03/20/the-death-penalty-as-a-deterrent–confirmed–seven-recent-studies-updated-61204.aspx
5. “The Death Penalty: More Protection for Innocents”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/05/the-death-penalty-more-protection-for-innocents.aspx

 

[dudleysharp]

The only possible way that I can think of that the death penalty would be justified is if there is absolutely no other possible way of keeping society safe from the violent criminal. This is incredibly rare in today’s world.

No, it is extremely common. You, as the Church, never investigated reality, on this point.

Likely, 28,000 additonal innocents have been murdered by unjust aggressors who had murdered, before, just since 1973, in the US, by murderers we allowed to murder, again - recidivist murderers.

Likely, 100,000 innocents have been murdered, also since 1973, in the US, by unjust aggressors, under the government “supervison” of parole, probation or other early released

1. a) “Prisons and the Education of Terrorists”, Ian M. Cuthbertson, WORLD POLICY JOURNAL, FALL 2004

“The use of prisons as a means of recruiting new members into terrorist organizations while providing advanced training to existing members is hardly a new phenomenon. FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS (my emphasis) , European countries have been beset by a variety of nationalist and leftist terrorist groups, some of them highly sophisticated organizations with large rosters of combat and support personnel.”

" . . . terrorist groups were able to retain a large degree of cohesion within the prison setting, which they discovered to be a favorable environment for training members in new skills and planning future operations."

“Al-Qaeda and its network of associated organizations has taken full advantage of the relatively lax practices in European, and even some American, prisons. The pool of potential recruits is vast.”

In 10/2003 , " . . . John Pistole, the FBI’s executive assistant director of counterterrorism/counterintelligence, called U.S. correctional institutions a “viable venue for radicalization and recruitment” for al-Qaeda. Harley Lappin, the director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, sees the bloated prison population of disgruntled and violent inmates as being ‘particularly vulnerable to recruitment by terrorists.’ "

b) “Hell in the heart of paradise”
“The Bali bombers were allowed to preach to the prison population, radicalising scores of impressionable young Muslims, as well as fund and organise subsequent attacks from their cells.”
4:40PM Monday November 23, 2009 Source: AAP , tvnz.co.nz/travel-news/hell-i…radise-3174543

c) Anwar al Awlaki, a spiritual leader at two mosques where three 9/11 hijackers worshipped, a native-born U.S. citizen who left the United States in 2002, was arrested in 2006 with a small group of suspected al-Qaida militants in the capital San’a. He was released more than a year later after signing a pledge he will not break the law or leave the country. He is now missing and encourages violence against Americans from his website, Awlaki used his site to declare support for the Somali terrorist group, al-Shabaab and celebrated the acts of US Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, who murdered 13 and wounding 29 in a shooting spree. al Awlaki called upon other Muslim’s to duplicate those acts. “Radical imam praises alleged Fort Hood shooter”, Associated Press, 11/9/09, 6:19 pm ET news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091109/…t_hood_muslims

UPDATE: “New Evidence Suggests Radical Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Was an Overlooked Key Player in 9/11 Plot”, foxnews.com/politics/2011…key-player-11/

UPDATE: al-Awlaki killed in a CIA drone strike - nor more a living threat.

d) " . . . Today’s prison inmates are willing to pay up to $10,000 for a smartphone that can allow them to run a drug ring, stalk their prey—and maybe even escape."

" . . . Parchman Mississippi State Penitentiary . . . shocked everyone when it blocked more than 216,000 texts and 600 phone calls in a (SINGLE MONTH) from within the prison walls."

In the first 9 months of 2011, California seized 11,400 cellphones from criminals behind bars.

"Smartphones Are the New Prison Contraband, Daily Beast, 10/16/11
thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/16/smartphones-in-prison-new-contraband-allows-inmates-to-make-money.htm

e) 16 al Quaeda Escape in Jailbreak in Iraq
theage.com.au/world/alqae…0924-g4no.html

f) 23 escape from Yemen prison, 13 are al Quaeda
globalsecurity.org/securi…k_in_yemen.htm

g) Governor commutes 108 year sentence: Offender later murders 4 policemen, while on bond for two child rapes
google.com/hostednews/ap/…OLEwwD9CACTHG0

h) Repeat sex offender,“cripple” serving life, overpowers guards, escapes
blog.taragana.com/law/2009/11…ongoing-17934/

i) Officials “embarrassed” by Texas death row inmate escape, Houston Chronicle, November 06, 2005
policeone.com/corrections…inmate-escape/

“. . . Thompson claimed he had an appointment with his lawyer and was taken to a meeting room. However, the visitor was not Thompson’s attorney.” “After the visitor left, Thompson removed his handcuffs and his bright orange prison jumpsuit and got out of a prisoner’s booth that should have been locked. He then left wearing a dark blue shirt, khaki pants and white tennis shoes, carrying a fake identification badge and claiming to work for the Texas Attorney General’s office.” “This was 100 percent human error; that’s the most frustrating thing about it.” “There were multiple failures.” Trial jurors and victim’s relatives were terrified.

j) the Holy See could find these types of cases every day, seemingly, forever, if she looked. It seems likely that hundreds or thousands of innocents die, everyday, because of the irresponsibility of prison systems allowing unjust aggressors to harm and murder, again, in contradiction of the curious ignorance within EV and 2267.

 

[Ender]

The legal obligations of justice can be met by lifetime imprisonment, which is a substantial punishment in and of itself.

This is a reasonable assertion and if true would argue against capital punishment. Beyond asserting it, however, there needs to be some argument to support the claim and so far no one has tried to support this position.

Oh no, absolutely mercy is something that should be granted unconditionally! In every single case, always and forever!

This is probably a common perspective, but it doesn’t appear to be true. At least it doesn’t appear to be what the Church teaches and I suspect comes from a mistaken belief that mercy trumps justice, which is not the case. At a minimum, mercy is not appropriate for those who will not repent of their sins, but beyond that is the confusion of mercy with clemency.

CCC 1847*"God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults.*

*God’s mercy delivers from sin those who repent. But such as are not capable of repenting, cling immovably to sin, and are not delivered by the Divine mercy. *(Aquinas)

“Forgive them, Father, for they do not know what they are doing.” THAT is what forgiveness means - no demands for satisfaction or compensation for injury or satisfaction for insult.

CCC 1864There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.

There is one demand: forgiveness is offered to those who repent.

Your attempt in a another post to obliterate the significance of Cain shows how you pick and choose Scripture passages, using only those who fit your needs.

I do not pick and choose Scripture passage; I pick and choose from Church documents. I have nowhere provided my personal interpretation of any passage in the Bible. What I have done is to provide the Church’s interpretation of certain passages and nowhere in anything I have read does the Church refer to the story of Cain in the context of capital punishment.

The Church put the bible together; ergo, the story of Cain is of immense importance to the Church (even if of no importance to you).

Context please. The story is significant, but not in this context.

Ender

 

[PeterGStanley]

Many innocent people have been executed with capital punishment over the history of mankind but whats a few sacrificial lambs to satisfy peoples need for extreme justice and as Christians we know the ultimate fate of these people - is that not enough. If one innocent person is saved by not supporting then it is worth it.

Or are you going to tell me it never happens? The court system is not about the truth or justice , right or wrong but what can be proved in the court of law and is flawed when it comes to the death penalty because the truth my never surface.

 

[LittleSoldier]

This is a reasonable assertion and if true would argue against capital punishment. Beyond asserting it, however, there needs to be some argument to support the claim and so far no one has tried to support this position.

Well, I tried to leave but I will not let anyone mischaracterize my position. Not even on Christmas.

I have tried to support this claim, the Church is supporting this claim, and others have also supported it. For some reason you don’t seem to see the obvious.

This is probably a common perspective, but it doesn’t appear to be true. At least it doesn’t appear to be what the Church teaches and I suspect comes from a mistaken belief that mercy trumps justice, which is not the case. At a minimum, mercy is not appropriate for those who will not repent of their sins, but beyond that is the confusion of mercy with clemency.

I am speaking of the mercy of God; the mercy that Jesus taught us. Aren’t we supposed to do what Jesus told us to do? Aren’t we supposed to be perfect? For the second time you have introduced a straw man. Please stop mischaracterizing my position! Geez! Sorry, but it’s starting to really irritate me.

CCC 1847*“God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us.”*To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults.**And? Where did I say anything else?

*God’s mercy delivers from sin those who repent. But such as are not capable of repenting, cling immovably to sin, and are not delivered by the Divine mercy. *

(Aquinas)And? Where did I say anything else?

CCC 1864There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.

There is one demand: forgiveness is offered to those who repent.And? Where did I say anything else? Of course God does not forgive one sin and that sin is a sin against the Holy Spirit. That is basic Church teaching. But that is for God. We, as people, do not have the power to send other people to damnation. We are to forgive always, everywhere, every time, without fail and that is for the good of our own souls. Is it not?

I do not pick and choose Scripture passage; I pick and choose from Church documents. I have nowhere provided my personal interpretation of any passage in the Bible. What I have done is to provide the Church’s interpretation of certain passages and nowhere in anything I have read does the Church refer to the story of Cain in the context of capital punishment.
Context please. The story is significant, but not in this context.

Ender

Thank you for adding “I have read.” And the bible is not a Church document? Please. As above, you show that you pick and choose which Scripture you decide supports your view and ignore the rest. God did not allow Cain to be executed. It is significant AND IN THIS CONTEXT because it shows that it is not always true that one who sheds the blood of man shall have his blood shed by man.

Dude, you use so many fonts, italics, sizes, and such that I have to clean up your posts. Every time. You don’t need to take my font out. I do it myself. I gave up on this one. Please.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Many innocent people have been executed with capital punishment over the history of mankind but whats a few sacrificial lambs to satisfy peoples need for extreme justice and as Christians we know the ultimate fate of these people - is that not enough. If one innocent person is saved by not supporting then it is worth it.

Or are you going to tell me it never happens? The court system is not about the truth or justice , right or wrong but what can be proved in the court of law and is flawed when it comes to the death penalty because the truth my never surface.

I agree, Peter. You’re absolutely correct about the court system, at least in the US. It is definitely flawed and people innocent of the crimes for which they have been found guilty die because the truth never surfaces - at least on earth. Jesus was certainly innocent yet He was executed and in an especially heinous way.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Addendum to Post #740: After wading through the fonts, italics, and rest of the stuff in the post to which I responded I discovered that the poster does indeed, as he claims, not provide his own personal interpretation to Scripture. There is an error in that the bible is certainly a Church document - it is also the Word of God.

So - I apologize and edit my post to state that the poster picks and chooses Church documents except for the only Church document that is accepted totally as the Word of God - the bible. The quotes from the CCC do represent Church teaching but Aquinas is not the Magisterium (in fact, he’s not even alive on earth!) and his opinion does not represent Church teaching unless it agrees with Church teaching. On its own, it cannot.

As for Church teaching regarding Cain I have had only enough time for a very cursory search but I found the following with no difficulty:

“For when the Lord said, ‘Cursed is the earth which has opened to receive the blood of your brother,’ and ‘groaning and trembling shall there be on the earth,’ Cain said, ‘If you cast me out today from the earth, then from your face shall I be hid, and groaning and trembling shall I lie upon the earth, and every one that finds me shall slay me.’ It is in answer to this that the Lord says, ‘Whosoever slays Cain will discharge seven vengeances.’ Cain supposed that he would be an easy prey to every one, because of there being no safety for him in the earth (for the earth was cursed for his sake), and of his being deprived of the succour of God, Who was angry with him for the murder, and so of there being no help for him either from earth or from heaven. Therefore he said, ;It shall come to pass that every one that finds me shall slay me.’ Scripture proves his error in the words, “Not so;” i.e. you shall not be slain. For to men suffering punishment, death is a gain, because it brings relief from their pain. But your life shall be prolonged, that your punishment may be made commensurate with your sins.”

newadvent.org/fathers/3202260.htm
(bolding added by this poster for emphasis)

It appears to correlate with what I said about life in prison with no possibility of parole being an adequate sentence.

God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful. If it were not for the sacrifice of the Christ, God-Incarnate, justice would dictate that we would all be damned for eternity. We say the *Kyrie *during Mass (at least I hope so). “Lord have mercy; Christ have mercy; Lord have mercy.” Is is not Church teaching that we say these words? I believe it is Church teaching and Church authority that tells us to say these prayers and we SHOULD ask for God’s mercy because we surely need it. We all share in the guilt of the Christ’s murder as He died for our sins, every last one of us. Shouldn’t justice then dictate that we be damned? If not for the mercy of God I’m very afraid we would be.

 

[TarkanAttila]

If I recall correctly, the death penalty is approved of as a last resort. But the need for such a last resort is so rare that it should be practically non-existent. The only way I could see the death penalty being justified is if somehow a criminal manages to escape - not be released, escape - a maximum security prison and immediately murders someone upon his escape - possibly many people, even in his attempt to escape.

But if a prison can keep him from harming others and himself, we need no death penalty.

 

[Catholic4Christ]

Death Penalty… Can’t say I’m a fan. I’m not well-versed enough in individual cases of the death penalty to know for sure how ‘effective’ it is. However, from a purely non-legal standpoint, I don’t think it’s a very good thing for Christians to be doing or supporting.

I do believe that there are crimes/sins that make people worthy of death. This is why Jesus died - to forgive the sins of many by paying the price of death.

HOWEVER, the fact that someone is deserving of death does NOT give other people the right sentence the criminal to death. When a confirmed rapist or a murderer receives the death penalty, I admit that I have trouble feeling much sorrow for that person. But I really think that we need to be consistently life-oriented in our country. Throw him or her in lockup for the rest of his or her life. It’s probably much better than they deserve. If they get struck by lightning or hit by a meteor, no one expects us to mourn them. But we shouldn’t defile ourselves by teaching that killing is wrong by killing.

That’s just my 2 cents, anyways.

 

[dudleysharp]

Many innocent people have been executed with capital punishment . . . snip Or are you going to tell me it never happens? The court system is not about the truth or justice , right or wrong but what can be proved in the court of law and is flawed when it comes to the death penalty because the truth my never surface.

Peter, as reviewed in posts 736 & 737, above, you, as the Church, reverses the reality.

The evidence is conclusive, that today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal, that the executions of unjust aggressors is the most effective method of defending both society and the innocent person, because only executions can render inoffensive the known violent offenders and, both the expiation of executions and the wrongdoers acceptance of sanction may enhance the opportunity of redemption, as described by St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, the CCC and Romano Amerio. The cases of absolute suppression of violent offenders ‘today … are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’ unless through execution.

 

[PeterGStanley]

Answer the question about the innocent people who get caught up in the system that are not guilty and are executed. Or I assume you don’t believe this happens and the system is flawless.
Not to mention a poor person get some new lawyer with no experience ( public defender ) who goes against someone who will take a high profile who only cares about their conviction rate and promoting their career.
The longer they are in the system the more detached and desensitised they become from the defendant and true justice. You have to learn to lie with a strait face as a lawyer.I’ve seen lawyers and crown prosecutors tell outright lies in court knowingly to win the case.

Go to court and see its not about right or wrong , truth and Justice and even if the system was perfect I still wouldn’t agree. I’m not a sheep I don’t follow just because someone says its all-right even the church in this case if they agreeded with capital punishment. I have my value system through my faith that says it not right and if yours says different then so be it.But I’ll always be there to say its wrong and I guess you telling me I’m wrong.So lets agree to disagree.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Answer the question about the innocent people who get caught up in the system that are not guilty and are executed. Or I assume you don’t believe this happens and the system is flawless.
Not to mention a poor person get some new lawyer with no experience ( public defender ) who goes against someone who will take a high profile who only cares about their conviction rate and promoting their career.
The longer they are in the system the more detached and desensitised they become from the defendant and true justice. You have to learn to lie with a strait face as a lawyer.I’ve seen lawyers and crown prosecutors tell outright lies in court knowingly to win the case.

Go to court and see its not about right or wrong , truth and Justice and even if the system was perfect I still wouldn’t agree. I’m not a sheep I don’t follow just because someone says its all-right even the church in this case if they agreeded with capital punishment. I have my value system through my faith that says it not right and if yours says different then so be it.But I’ll always be there to say its wrong and I guess you telling me I’m wrong.So lets agree to disagree.

I just wanted to say that I believe you are right and I’m happy to know you will always be there to say it’s wrong. We certainly have the capability to keep dangerous people imprisoned where they can not only lose the ability to hurt the innocent public but can’t hurt prison staff members or other prisoners.

Your points about the court system are well taken. I’m not familiar with the judicial system in Canada but I know the death penalty does not exist there and no person will be extradited to the US if he/she will be charged with a crime with the death penalty as a possible result. From what little I have seen and read of about the court system in the US, it’s almost like a three-ring circus and causes immense pain not only for the defendant, who is supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but for his family and loved ones, and the family and loved ones of the victim. There are so many unethical attorneys who have that straight face as they lie. Witnesses perjure themselves and few are charged with that crime.

It’s not good enough when a person’s life is at stake. I believe that the death penalty has its place but only if it is the only possible way to protect the innocent.

I pray that God gives you continued strength to uphold what you believe is correct.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I have been doing some research and ran across the following article. It has been condensed because of space constraints. The author has presented twelve reasons to not support the death penalty. I don’t agree with everything the author states but I think the reasons given are well thought-out, provocative, and definitely on topic (I have focused on Church teaching through most of this thread but as that teaching is crystal-clear to me I am now including secular reasons for why the death penalty is used inappropriately).

1. The death penalty expresses the absolute power of the state; abolition of this penalty is a much-needed limit on governmental power.
2. An execution sometimes amounts to state-assisted suicide.
3. There is no way to remedy the occasional mistake that results in execution of the innocent.
4. Some people are executed despite strong mitigating circumstances.
5. There is economic and racial discrimination in application of the death penalty.
6. The death penalty gives criminals publicity they do not deserve, gives them psychological power over victims’ families, and prevents reparation.
7. It violates the religious and ethical convictions of many citizens.
8. Executions are premeditated killings in which society actually imitates the killer.
9. There is no good way to kill someone; all of the methods are appalling.
10. Executions have a corrupting effect on the public.
11. The death penalty encourages self-righteousness and a tendency to overlook one’s own complicity in violence.
12. If we abolish the death penalty in the United States, we can be more effective in defending political and religious prisoners who face it abroad.

meehanreports.com/dozen.html

Information regarding each reason are provided in the article (link is above), along with references, some of which I will be using to back up my claims.

I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas. I’m always happy to celebrate the birth of the Messiah - even though He was tortured and put to death for our sins. We all share in the blame for His execution.