Not with certainty, we do not. You say we do not use those means, but discounting human error is not really fair. We will never have anything but fallible (and dishonest) humans to work prisons. More to the point, we do not have the possibility to keep the most dangerous criminals from killing inside prison, and* from *inside prison.This country certainly has the means to keep criminals in jail, thus the death penalty should not be of practical need. The fact that this country doesn’t properly use those means is a different angle to the discussion.
It seems to me there is a difference between God’s forgiveness that would allow a person to go to heaven, and, say, my forgiveness of some wrong-doer, which does not have the power to grant that person go to heaven. Maybe it is not a sin not to forgive that person. Maybe it is optional. I’m no moral theologian. I don’t know what that pastor meant by we MUST forgive even the unrepentant. Perhaps he only meant if we were truly Christian we would do so.The next time you go to confession ask if your repentance is necessary for absolution. If you admit to a sin but don’t repent of it do you believe your sin will be forgiven? It won’t happen because repentance is a requirement for forgiveness as is penance. If our sins were automatically forgiven we would have no need of confession, but that is not the case.
In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness. (JPII, Dives in Misericordia)
CCC 1847****"God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
Ender
The first is the teaching of Jesus. The second is decidedly **not **what Jesus taught. James 4:7 says the opposite.Turn the other cheek. Resist not evil.
Since, as you state, prisons are run by fallible humans, then why would JPII even bother to mention that in modern society the need for capital punishment is rare to nonexistent?Not with certainty, we do not. You say we do not use those means, but discounting human error is not really fair. We will never have anything but fallible (and dishonest) humans to work prisons. More to the point, we do not have the possibility to keep the most dangerous criminals from killing inside prison, and* from *inside prison.
I have tried to find where there was some consultation from those who actually have worked inside with these guys, but have never found any. As far as I know, it came from CNN. The question I want to know, is what do Catholics who work inside with these really nasty people thing. My opinion is that it is not realistic to think that we can safely incarcerate the worst of the worst.Since, as you state, prisons are run by fallible humans, then why would JPII even bother to mention that in modern society the need for capital punishment is rare to nonexistent?
have the worst of the worst even escaped from a maximum security prison?I have tried to find where there was some consultation from those who actually have worked inside with these guys, but have never found any. As far as I know, it came from CNN. The question I want to know, is what do Catholics who work inside with these really nasty people thing. My opinion is that it is not realistic to think that we can safely incarcerate the worst of the worst.
Some of them don’t need to escape. After reading this story ask yourself how protected Californians should feel when the authorities are so worried about this particular inmate that they won’t even charge him for his involvement with 20 killings because that would mean removing him from his cell - in a maximum security prison. On the other hand, why would they bother trying him for new murders when he’s already serving life?have the worst of the worst even escaped from a maximum security prison?
This.The church prefers methods of incarceration that enable someone to obtain God’s forgiveness. If someone is killed, then they can’t seek forgiveness anymore. Its a new year. Lets change our minds to be in tune with the mind of Christ, not playing some tune by Schoenberg.
Yes, from The Conally Unit a few years back, seven escaped. They killed a policeman near Dallas in durring a robbery to get guns and ammo. But a criminal does not need to escape prison to still be a danger. He can kill inside the prison, and order killings outside.have the worst of the worst even escaped from a maximum security prison?
can he do these things in solitary confinement?Yes, from The Conally Unit a few years back, seven escaped. They killed a policeman near Dallas in durring a robbery to get guns and ammo. But a criminal does not need to escape prison to still be a danger. He can kill inside the prison, and order killings outside.
Clearly - did you not read the article I referenced just yesterday?can he do these things in solitary confinement?
The person in the article was sentenced to 26 years for murder but after his involvement in six stabbings was finally moved to Pelican Bay and total isolation.if he is a danger to people inside the prison then disconnect him from all people with the exception of the police.
No, it didn’t, inasmuch as he ordered a gang war that resulted in the death of 20 people.that would remove him as a threat to society.
First, at least in this case, this individual is still a threat to society despite receiving the harshest (prison) sentence available - total isolation. Second, and more significantly, protection is only a secondary objective of punishment. The case for capital punishment rests on whether it is necessary to achieve the primary objective, not a secondary one.again if you can convince me that someone will be a danger to society inside of prison then you have a legit case for the death penalty.
Yes, he can. Nuestra Familia ran rackets and had people killed from inside Pelican Bay, in California.can he do these things in solitary confinement?
what you are explaining could rather mean a reform of the jail system rather than just killing him. It takes a long time for all The things to happen in order to execute the person. So even with the death sentence would not prevent this guy for a time to do what you say he doesYes, he can. Nuestra Familia ran rackets and had people killed from inside Pelican Bay, in California.
Perhaps if they could be 100% cut-off from even family, we repeal the Eighth Amendment and we give prison officers carte blanche, then we might could make it happen. Carte blanche would have to include allowing them to die in hunger strike and suicide attempts.
Here locally we has the Texas Syndicate order the killing of members of Tangos using a cell phone, purchased from a corrupt guard. We requested a prearranged tune dedicated to a code word person at a local radio station so that this war could be initiated statewide.
I don’t think most people realize how tough and creative some of these intense criminals are.
Interesting, that is not what Cardinal Dulles had to sayThe church prefers methods of incarceration that enable someone to obtain God’s forgiveness. If someone is killed, then they can’t seek forgiveness anymore. Its a new year. Lets change our minds to be in tune with the mind of Christ, not playing some tune by Schoenberg.
A prime example is Timothy McVeigh. He was baptized a Catholic, but never practiced his faith. While on death row, though, he had a reversion. He requested (and recieved) the Sacrament of Reconcillion several times while on death row, and again, just prior to his execution.Capital punishment does not reintegrate the criminal into society; rather, it cuts off any possible rehabilitation. The sentence of death, however, can and sometimes does move the condemned person to repentance and conversion. There is a large body of Christian literature on the value of prayers and pastoral ministry for convicts on death row or on the scaffold. In cases where the criminal seems incapable of being reintegrated into human society, the death penalty may be a way of achieving the criminal’s reconciliation with God.
Purgation is easier to accomplish in this life than in the next, so Capital Punishment can aid a person’s journey to eternal life, which really should be our ultimate considerationBy consenting to the punishment of death, the wrongdoer is placed in a position to expiate his evil deeds and escape punishment in the next life.
Those sentenced to death have always been imprisoned prior to execution. I am focusing on what has changed in the teaching of the Church, which has not only supported the death penalty, but had an implemented a death penalty. The change seems to focus on this idea we can safely incarcerate prisoners. I have no idea where this comes from other than it just being commonly accepted. My opinion is that it is not true.So even with the death sentence would not prevent this guy for a time to do what you say he does
I think you’ve fallen for the falsified stories of the Spanish Inquisition that are given by our secular media. The Church herself has never implemented the death penalty!Those sentenced to death have always been imprisoned prior to execution. I am focusing on what has changed in the teaching of the Church, which has not only supported the death penalty, but had an implemented a death penalty.