Do you support the second amendment?

[Thom18]

How are criminals going to obtain them through legal means? It’s already illegal for felons to own firearms. If they get them anyways, it’s because they got them illegally, or existing laws weren’t enforced. A dozen new laws won’t help.

 

[vsedriver]

I don’t care how many of your buddies you enroll in your AR-15 toting militia, you’re not going to do anything about the Abrams Main Battle Tank they plop in the mouth of your neighborhood.

how well did they work in Iraq and Afghanistan? And if the population rises up against the government, who is going to make those tanks?

In any case, 99% of the people who own guns don’t go out and massacre people. For that matter, cars and trucks are much more dangerous and if someone still wants to commit mass murder and guns are totally illegal they’ll still have a weapon to mow down large numbers of people.

 

[phil19034]

I’ll admit, this is a part of your culture I simply don’t understand. I’ve heard all the arguments, and I still thank God I am not American and that it doesn’t concern me as an internal matter. My opinion is that if you are comfortable with semi automatic weaponry being so freely available, you kind of have to live with the consequences of that. Makes no sense to me.

That’s understandable because most Europeans and Canadians didn’t have a war of independence by rebelling against their former nation.

Regardless of what people might think today, the founders strongly believed that power should reside with the people. In America, the people are the state, we are the sovereign. In Europe the “state” is an institution, like the Queen of England. The English Crown is the Sovereign of the United Kingdom. British citizens are subjects of the Queen.

But in America, We the People are the Sovereign. Americans are subjected to no one. The Federal Govt is actually subject to us. NOTE: not us as individuals, but we as a collective people.

That concept is 100% foreign to Europeans, and extremely misunderstood by American Liberals who want America to become a unitary state like most of Europe.

In England, you bow before the Queen because she is the sovereign. But in America, we bow to no one because we are the sovereign.

Point is: our founders, esp the Anti-Federalist ones like Thomas Jefferson, wanted the power in the hands of States and not the Federal Govt and wanted to allow the people the power to fight the Federal Govt if it ever became too powerful. Because again, guys like Thomas Jefferson wanted the power in the hands of the people and states and he feared the Federal Govt (even though he became the 3rd President).

To understand more, read the American Federalist Papers.

***Unfortunately today, there apparently is a “sovereign citizens movement” of anarchist, libertarians which has been used to make our sovereignty seem like an anarchist term.

I know reading this will not answer all your questions, but I pray it helps a little.

God Bless

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

po18guy:

The question above all questions: Is freedom now too dangerous for our society?

With the escalation of technology, we do need to stop from time to time to evaluate what everyone should have access too. Makes me think of the Fermi paradox…

The Aussies have but limitations in place that limit the ownership of these sorts of weapons. Has tyranny broken out in Australia, in your opinion? Are they an oppressed people living in a police state straight-out of Orwell? Of course not.

Not today, but who knows what can happen in 20 or 200 years.

An argument, I’m sure you can agree, we can make about anything in order to say anything.

When you take away rights, you don’t just take them away from your generation, you take them away for future generations to come.

So the American people are no longer able to roll back the effective ban on fully automatic weapons? Democracy has ended?

Again, of course not.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

I don’t care how many of your buddies you enroll in your AR-15 toting militia, you’re not going to do anything about the Abrams Main Battle Tank they plop in the mouth of your neighborhood.

how well did they work in Iraq and Afghanistan? And if the population rises up against the government, who is going to make those tanks?

There are so many already made that we’re literally burying them when we leave a base in the middle east. But in any rate, they can be made elsewhere. How many current governments occupy the globe that received shipments of fine Colt and S&W products in their infancy?

In any case, 99% of the people who own guns don’t go out and massacre people. For that matter, cars and trucks are much more dangerous and if someone still wants to commit mass murder and guns are totally illegal they’ll still have a weapon to mow down large numbers of people.

As I agreed earlier, the determined, murderous random vector is a question to which there isn’t an answer.

But that said, When crime is more difficult to commit, less of it gets committed. Lots of data out there to support it.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

The Aussies have but limitations in place that limit the ownership of these sorts of weapons. Has tyranny broken out in Australia, in your opinion? Are they an oppressed people living in a police state straight-out of Orwell? Of course not.

Alternatively, is America a war zone because of the second amendment?

No, but I’m not trying to paint it as such. If I am, please provide the post where I did so and I’ll make amends for it.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

Vonsalza:

po18guy:

The question above all questions: Is freedom now too dangerous for our society?

With the escalation of technology, we do need to stop from time to time to evaluate what everyone should have access too. Makes me think of the Fermi paradox…

The Aussies have but limitations in place that limit the ownership of these sorts of weapons. Has tyranny broken out in Australia, in your opinion? Are they an oppressed people living in a police state straight-out of Orwell? Of course not.

Not today, but who knows what can happen in 20 or 200 years.

An argument, I’m sure you can agree, we can make about anything in order to say anything.

When you take away rights, you don’t just take them away from your generation, you take them away for future generations to come.

So the American people are no longer able to roll back the effective ban on fully automatic weapons? Democracy has ended?

Again, of course not.

I’m not following. Fully automatic weapons in the US are outlawed.

Don’t get me wrong… I don’t own a gun and I used to be for gun control. But I now understand the argument about protecting themselves from the govt, communist revolt, or civil war.

If America breaks out into civil war again, it most likely will not be state vs state, but rather a communist revolt.

If the communists one day come for Christians, I feel they should be able to protect themselves.

 

[Thom18]

I’m not suggesting that you did, I’m merely offering an alternative perspective.

 

[Thom18]

They aren’t “outlawed”, just very difficult and relatively expensive to acquire. It takes a long time to finish the process, too.

The Vegas shooter, I hear, illegally modified his weapons to make them automatic. They were sold as semi-automatic rifles.

 

[JonNC]

Yup, and as already said, bombs can be easily made, and guns can easily be purchased off of the dark net and black market. It’s all just a click away!

So, Eric Holder is still in business?

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

phil19034:

Vonsalza:

po18guy:

The question above all questions: Is freedom now too dangerous for our society?

With the escalation of technology, we do need to stop from time to time to evaluate what everyone should have access too. Makes me think of the Fermi paradox…

The Aussies have but limitations in place that limit the ownership of these sorts of weapons. Has tyranny broken out in Australia, in your opinion? Are they an oppressed people living in a police state straight-out of Orwell? Of course not.

Not today, but who knows what can happen in 20 or 200 years.

An argument, I’m sure you can agree, we can make about anything in order to say anything.

When you take away rights, you don’t just take them away from your generation, you take them away for future generations to come.

So the American people are no longer able to roll back the effective ban on fully automatic weapons? Democracy has ended?

Again, of course not.

I’m not following. Fully automatic weapons in the US are outlawed.

Ok. Lets stay there for a sec.

The current attitude is that if we makes sales of certain firearms more restrictive, then some sort of key right will be lost or some supreme tyranny will break loose.

Once upon a time in the US, fully auto firearms were purchasable. The American people then lost this “freedom” (for the most part).

When that happened, did all the horrendous things I’m hearing conservatives doom-say materialize? If not, why would they expect them to do so with a return to something resembling the assault weapons ban that we already had on the books once-upon-a-time?

I’m not seeing the justification for “Well THIS is the line we just can’t cross!”

 

[phil19034]

I see the magnitude of injury and death by one person had immense potential to be reduced, A gun is manufactured for one purpose, killing. It’s made to kill. But where it’s function is limited, yes , people will find other means. Our conversation here in Australia has been about damage control. Limiting the damage able to be done. This also includes bans and permits on martial arts weapons, certain knives, chemicals activity. Etc.

But again… In Nice, 86 people were killed and 458 wounded by a crazed man in his truck. Again, any tool can be used by evil to kill and wound lots of people.

2016 Nice truck attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Vonsalza]

They aren’t “outlawed”, just very difficult and relatively expensive to acquire. It takes a long time to finish the process, too.

The Vegas shooter, I hear, illegally modified his weapons to make them automatic. They were sold as semi-automatic rifles.

I think his work-around was a modified stock/lower receiver that skirted the technicality on what presently defines a fully automatic weapon. Store bought if I hear correctly. No metallurgy or lathing involved I THINK.

Bump stocks. That’s what he used.

I’ve got $5 that says they’re going to get banned and that there will not be a “grandfather” provision for previous purchases. Owners will continue to hold it at their own peril.
BTW, that bet is just with my brother.

 

[starshiptrooper]

I already explained that. My understanding of the law is that my 1st and 2nd Amendment rights are far more extensive than the rights that Australians enjoy.

Income tax is relevant. The more money your government takes from you, the less free you are in choosing how your money is spent.

 

[Crusaderbear]

I believe in the 2nd amendment, but believe it must have more safeguards to keep weapons out of the hands of those bent on destruction of others. That I feel is a mental health issue FIRST, and a gun control issue SECOND.

 

[Thom18]

The point of abortion is to kill an unborn child. The point of euthanasia is to kill the patient. Alternatively, the point of the second amendment isn’t to have mass shootings. It’s in place to preserve the lives of the people who exercise it. Trying to turn the gun rights issue into a pro-life one is intellectually dishonest. That’s like me saying being “pro-choice” ends as soon as someone wants to own a gun.

 

[Thom18]

How am I being “religiously dishonest”?

 

[thatcatholicguy]

I support the 2nd amendment, but I think something else needs to be done that hasn’t been done for these crimes to diminish. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to look at what Australia did in the wake of the 1996 Port Arthur Massacre regarding gun control. It can’t hurt.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Supporting mandatory confiscation.

Supporting the 2nd Amendment.

Pick one and only one.

 

[upant]

you had 14 mass killings in the 20 years before and 14 mass killings in the 20 years since. i don’t think it matters how you die.

some links to read

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...e/news-story/629fb6190e3fc2e7966edd3c181a8a16

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2015/11/10/australias-secret-gun-problem-exposed/