Do you support the second amendment?

[phil19034]

These were not federal governments; British: monarch; colonies: not even a pot to boil water in.

Maran atha!

Angel

You have totally missed the point. Yes, I know that the British are not a federation and do not have a “federal” government. But they have a central government and had a provincial system during the colonial years. Each province had a local legislature, even though they didn’t have true home rule.

 

[JonNC]

jcrichton:

Your first point is the reason why I’m still on this thread–hoping that some will understand that there is a need to stop the distribution of guns that go missing from all sources

I fear there is too much money to be made in the arms business to ever win this one. Death and violence is good for business.

Then start with where the greatest amount of death and violence is: arms in the hands of governments.
Over 300,000,00 firearms are in private hands. A tiny fraction are used in violence by private citizens.
Your accusation has no merit.

 

[Vonsalza]

pnewton:

jcrichton:

Your first point is the reason why I’m still on this thread–hoping that some will understand that there is a need to stop the distribution of guns that go missing from all sources

I fear there is too much money to be made in the arms business to ever win this one. Death and violence is good for business.

Then start with where the greatest amount of death and violence is: arms in the hands of governments.
Over 300,000,00 firearms are in private hands. A tiny fraction are used in violence by private citizens.
Your accusation has no merit.

Oh, I think an unbiased assessment of the money made by the civilian arms industry in the US versus other countries and a simultaneous assessment of the gun crime and homicide rates of those same countries gives it plenty of merit.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Manufactured at home, stolen, imported illegally into the country, a straw purchase, or a sale from another criminal.

 

[starshiptrooper]

The difference is that every abortion is a murder. Not every use of a gun is inherently wrong. Sometimes use of the weapon is virtuous, and even a moral duty.

 

[JonNC]

Oh, I think an unbiased assessment of the money made by the civilian arms industry in the US versus other countries and a simultaneous assessment of the gun crime and homicide rates of those same countries gives it plenty of merit.

Only if one has evidence that arms manufacturers and dealers are intentionally promoting violence, selling arms illegally, and the like.
That has been alleged countless times on this thread without evidence or proof provided.

Gun ownership is a good thing. Making a profit is a good thing. Gun crime is not. Stop the criminal, not the law abiding

 

[pnewton]

Your accusation has no merit.

In the end, I no longer care how much “merit” gun enthusiasts give anything. I can only hope that we will eventually become more civilized, one person at a time to eventually overcome the pressure from the arms industry and those that love their unlimited and unrestricted guns.

The difference is that every abortion is a murder. Not every use of a gun is inherently wrong. Sometimes use of the weapon is virtuous, and even a moral duty.

That is a difference, but it is not a difference that has anything to do with the logic of taking not action because one cannot be guaranteed of saving every life. In the end, if I could save even a dozen lives and make every gun owner wait one more day before getting their new gun, I would, even though guns are not inherently evil. It is not exactly like they are a Sacrament.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Good people will also have access to those weapons, and they will not be made a criminal by an arbitrary law that the real bad guys do not follow. Neither will they be inconvenienced in exercise of their right to defend themselves, their loved ones, and their property.

I suggest you take up your quarrel with God, since He created humans with free will and therefore gave them the ability to choose moral evil.

When somebody commits evil with a gun, those who defend gun rights are no more responsible for that individual’s actions than God who gave that person the gift of free will is for their actions.

 

[starshiptrooper]

It matters because all abortions are evil and must be opposed. The use of a gun is not intrinsically wrong. The actions are in 2 different categories and need to be evaluated accordingly.

You might save a dozen lives but you might also cost an innocent person dearly. Except in the latter case that will be the result of the laws you put in place. Laws which made a good person choose between being lawful and protecting their rights. That will be on your conscience.

 

[pnewton]

Except in the latter case that will be the result of the laws you put in place. Laws which made a good person choose between being lawful and protecting their rights. That will be on your conscience.

In convenience versus life? My conscience is fine, but then our Holy Father preaches we need to be consistently pro-life, not just when it is easy. In the end, I can only hope the number of civilized people in the country grow and eventually we will enact reasonable protection for all, including those who want to own guns legally.

 

[jcrichton]

Remember Orwell’s “Big Brother?” When the US adopted the monitoring the citizenry through cameras posted in the various districts… many people complained about the infringement upon their liberties… who it was unconstitutional and some other mumbo jumbo. Yet, the US did not become N. Korea, where thinking about mixing jelly and jam can get a person killed (yeah, poetic licensing, that’s what that’s called).

As a matter of fact public and private cameras have aided in solving crimes–I would dare even say, they have become a tool for crime prevention.

Yet, I digress; as I’m quite apolitical and pedestrian I could only come up with ideas to revamp the gun control laws and give them the right teeth and crunch power.

But that would be a different thread–benefiting only if policos formulate and bring them into effect.

But I can assure you that you will not be required to surrender your guns.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[SuperLuigi]

That’s one reason for the #2A

 

[JonNC]

In the end, I no longer care how much “merit” gun enthusiasts give anything. I can only hope that we will eventually become more civilized, one person at a time to eventually overcome the pressure from the arms industry and those that love their unlimited and unrestricted guns.

Then start where the greatest source of armed violence: governments around the world. The violence isn’t coming from the rancher who owns a couple of semi-automatics and a couple of revolvers.
The main source of violence isn’t even the street gang in South Chicago. It is from governments, usually the socialist authoritarian types.
Let’s get the UN to try to disarm them. If you want to end the violence, go after the violence.

Or is targeting civilian gun owners the real target for unspoken reasons.

 

[jcrichton]

I know you are going to hate this, but it is easy.

Those that do not return to Yahweh God’s morality, will never give up greed–just look at our fine public and private sector citizenry–they not only do not want to give up their office but they make sure that enough pork greases the pockets of the influential so not even when it is proven that they broke the law means quite much–the good ole boy network at play. Talk about double taxation without representation!

Hence, greed should be made not cost effective. Here’s an example: poachers and their industry continue to rain death and destruction upon wildlife and eco systems… they are met with the staunch ‘don’t do it again’ slap of the wrist. (could get the numbers on how profitable the industry is, sorry) Until it becomes extremely difficult to profit from poaching, the battle is lost.

It is the same for illegal drugs and guns. Bandages and slap on the wrist will not compel the greedy to give up the easy money. Our government representatives that collect from several sources do not have the incentive to terminate or even control these problems.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

i believe what will work is prosecutors stop dropping the gun charge and have mandatory penalties; but, only because it removes the element performing the crime

Do you see the elephant?

It’s all the criminals fault–ship them all to the moon and we will have a great nation under… wait, can’t say God anymore… well, a great nation!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Exactly!

…and the romantics run to stock pile weapons every time they hear tinkle bell shout, ‘the feds are coming, the feds are coming!’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Jon, so if you believe that freedom is not a license, why are you against holding the manufacturers, distributors and vendors of a product whose main function is to end lives?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[starshiptrooper]

Because some lives deserve to be ended.

 

[jcrichton]

Phil, the point is that a monarch rules from totalitarianism (N. Korea) answerable only to self; the federal government does not only have to answer to its constituency but they have a division of power that works together to hold the confederacy as a unit. What the colonists foresaw was the threat of a totalitarian power and the threat of its leaders seeking to make themselves into that power.

We do not have that today. It would be such a fantastic erosion of governance for this to take place in the US again, that the odds are astronomical… as that warning about the sun expiring in billions of years or that contract that scientologist are said to have to sign (two-billion year contract).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[SuperLuigi]

The death knell of a democratic society in general is when the population figures out they can vote themselves benefits.