Do you support the second amendment?

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

As I said many times before, this inverse correlation is due to a cause and effect that goes the opposite direction from what you imply. Places and times with high crime cause the citizens and lawmakers to call for tighter restrictions on guns. The crime does not follow gun control. Crime leads gun control.

This is conjecture on your part. Also, the crime areas with increased control did not see a drop after they implemented said response.

This is not a controlled experiment where only one thing is varied at a time, so no conclusions about effect or lack of effect can be drawn.

It is an unsupported assumption that anyone who has a tendency to suicide will just as likely try an alternate means if a gun is not available. The depression that brings on suicidal thoughts is sometimes quite acute - coming and going over short periods of time. Suicide delayed (because of the time it takes to rig up a noose, say, versus grab a gun that is already there) is often suicide prevented.

No, I supported my argument sufficiently. Countries without guns often have equal or even higher suicide rates using many other means. There is no evidence that taking guns out of the equation would shift the overall numbers.

Here is your evidence. As for other countries, there are undoubtedly other factors that have a much stronger affect on the suicide rate, such as economic or social oppression, as we see here. That makes it difficult to use statistics from different nations to conclude anything about the correlation of guns and suicide.

What you imagine goes through the mind of a depressed person does not constitute as evidence.

I am not imagining it.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Japan has a LOT of suicides.

 

[Cathoholic]

FiveLinden:

Every house with a gun in it is more dangerous that a house without.

FiveLinden. Do you think the victims in THESE GUN-LESS HOUSES were in havens of safety because they were without protection?

STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE:

Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900

By R.J. Rummel

**Charlottesville, Virginia: **
**Center for National Security Law, **
School of Law, University of Virginia, 1997; and Transaction Publishers, Rutgers University

We owe respect to the living; to the dead we owe only truth
----Voltaire. Oeuvres Vol. I, p. 15n

CONTENTS

Forward (by John Norton Moore)
Figures and Tables
Preface
Acknowledgments

1. Summary and Conclusions [Why Democide? Explanation and Proof]
2. Pre-Twentieth Century Democide
   I. THE MEGAMURDERERS

Introduction to Part I
3. Japan’s Savage Military
4. The Khmer Rouge Hell State
5. Turkey’s Ethnic Purges
6. The Vietnamese War State
7. Poland’s Ethnic Cleansing
8. The Pakistani Cutthroat State
9. Tito’s Slaughterhouse
10. Orwellian North Korea
11. Barbarous Mexico
12. Feudal Russia . . .

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Japan has a LOT of suicides.

As I said, “As for other countries, there are undoubtedly other factors that have a much stronger affect on the suicide rate.” So I guess we agree.

 

[upant]

for those interested in gun stats, this is a good site. he is pro-gun so ymmv

http://extranosalley.com/

 

[JonNC]

Guns also don’t cause more suicides, they are just an option people taking that route select.

And typically it is males, more so than females, that use guns for suicide.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

If we made guns more expensive to obtain, we’d see fewer poor folks with fewer guns.

You would have less law-abiding poor people get a firearm.

Yes. Yes you would. But the reduction in legal supply reduces all supply over time because these firearms MUST enter the market, initially, through legal means.

Colt and S&W can’t sell on the street corner sans background checks, I’m sure you agree.

Combine a permit system with a buyback program and you’ll suck the guns out of the hands of the impoverished with blazing speed because they all eventually need the money desperately at some point.

 

[upant]

But the reduction in legal supply reduces all supply over time because these firearms MUST enter the market, initially, through legal means.

then how do you account for austrailia have more guns now than before its ban? so many illegal in fact that they just tried an amnesty to get 250,000 illegal guns off the street and only got 50k.

so much for the source drying up. it is an island with very good port security. how would that work here?

do you expect the outside usa gun manufacturers to quit making guns because we ban them? worked for drugs.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

then how do you account for austrailia have more guns now than before its ban?

There has been a steady rise in gun imports from 1999 to the present, so that they are now importing more than before the ban. But at the same time, the number of Australian households owning guns has been steadily declining. This suggests that the majority of the gun imports are by people who already have guns.

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

With respect, I am wondering if there is an element of idolatry in the attitudes of some to the constitution of the US, the second amendment, and guns themselves.

I have never even considered that aspect before. You know the way I’ve seen Gun owners act with their guns, that is an absolute truth.

 

[Cathoholic]

Don’t fall for the suicide canard.

You don’t disarm good law abiding citizens because other people commit suicide.

You “help” those in despair. But not by “hurting” others.

If “waiting periods” were an end-all and be-all against suicide, we wouldn’t see gun suicides where they have typically had “INFINITE” waiting periods (like up until recently, Washington D.C. was).

You cannot design an accurate study concerning people who were HARMED by being FORCED to “wait” such as the institutionalized anti-Constitutional Government law breaking in Washington D.C. was, so the gun-grabbers just ignore this problem.

There are “waiting periods” in Chicago too. But I am sure they have plenty of gun suicides.

“Waiting periods” are just another way to implement incrimentalized gun control over law-abiding citizens.

Then the gun-grabbers will say something like . . . “Well, the reason there are so many gun deaths in Chicago is Indiana’s fault. So we need MORE GUN CONTROL. We need to federalize these (failed) policies, so Indiana is forced to do likewise as Chicago.”

That’s what they often will say.

And speaking of Chicago, there are plenty of police officer suicides too.

High Police Suicide Rate Inspires Video Urging Officers To Get Help: WATCH

By Alisa Hauser | September 29, 2017 2:28pm | Updated on October 2, 2017 8:30am

CHICAGO — A new video offers a glimpse into the stresses facing Chicago police officers — and urges them to call for help if they’re feeling overwhelmed.

Posted on Thursday night to the Chicago Police Department Facebook page, the video has been viewed more than 9,200 times and is getting widely shared. . . .

. . . . the Police Department stating the rate of suicide on the force is drastically higher than the national average for police. . . .
. . . . According to the Justice Department report, the Police Department rate officially is 22.7 suicides per 100,000 department members. The Fraternal Order of Police shared figures used in the report saying the Police Department’s suicide rate from 2013 to 2015 was 29.4 per 100,000. . . .

High Police Suicide Rate Inspires Video Urging Officers To Get Help: WATCH

Stresses include lack of public support, police shootings, family pressures and seeing violence to kids.

www.dnainfo.com

Gun-grabbers will use this to (sometimes) say police should be disarmed too.

And police who need help may be concerned that if word gets out by their seeking help, they might LOSE their own gun rights further exacerbating the problem in the name of “helping”.

 

[Cathoholic]

Now I am not pretending to know what the answer is to this problem (and I acknowledge it is a problem).

But I DO know what the answer ISN’T.

I DO know that the answer ISN’T to proverbially beat up people without suicidal issues, without criminal records, without violent histories.

But gun-grabbers impose this anyway.

WHY?

Because of arrogance. Because they think they think they know what everybody else needs better than the people themselves.

For example, listen to the Hollywood people or the journalists “preach” about morals and then look at their personal lives for instance. (They are blind to their own hypocrisy)

And not merely because of arrogance but also because something that goes hand-in-hand with their conceit . . . ELITISM.

“We want to impose this upon YOU.” YOU need MY help because YOU are NOT ENLIGHTENED like ME.

We see this with gun-grabbers who surround themselves with armed guards sometimes at the very talks they are out stumping for more gun-control at.

Satan was the first elitist I think. The angels were told to serve “lowly” human nature. Some almost certainly said, “I will NOT serve!”

They thought themselves too far ABOVE human nature to “serve” human nature.

.

HEBREWS 1:14 14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?

.

The fallen angels were (in my opinion) the first . . . ELITISTS.

.

This ELITISM of the demons, again in my opinion, came from their arrogance (their pride).

Gun-grabbers always think they know more about what is better for you than YOU.

I suppose I am exaggerating but before you know it . . . .

. . . . . these elitists will be telling you, that you are not allowed to buy sugared soft drinks of 16 oz. or larger. Or they will me mandating that restaurants not be allowed to offer table salt to their patrons. Or threatening nuns in Florida or chefs in San Antonio for feeding the poor.

OK. I’m probably just embellishing here. They would NEVER do that! Right?

Their “gun solutions” are all about telling YOU what to do and about their implementation of incremental gun-control.

 

[Cathoholic]

JoshuaIsLord from post 1371 (with parenthetical addition mine for context):

.

You know the way I’ve seen Gun owners act with their guns, that is an absolute truth (they are worshiping the Constitution or committing “idolatry” with the Constitution).

.

Just WHICH “gun owners” are you accusing of “idolatry” JoshuaIsLord?

Are you talking against our police?
Are you making accusations against our military?
Are you indicting people who guard politicians?
Are you “the accuser” of criminals here?
Or do you just mean “law-abiding citizens”?

Is it “all of them”?

WHAT are you talking about?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Don’t fall for the suicide canard.

You don’t disarm good law abiding citizens because other people commit suicide.

Why not? It’s not as if you can easily separate the “good law abiding citizens” from the people who are going to commit suicide. That is like saying you don’t force people to wear seat belts if they are not going to get into an accident. Or you don’t require vaccinations for kids that are not going to get sick.

I DO know that the answer ISN’T to proverbially beat up people without suicidal issues, without criminal records, without violent histories.

Being denied a gun is not “beating up” on them.

 

[upant]

the number of Australian households owning guns has been steadily declining.

how is this monitored? in a country where many did not turn in their guns during the ban, how many of these people will admit to owning a gun?

even here in the states many will not admit to gun ownership because of political realities.

can you provide a link showing the data

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

Just WHICH “gun owners” are you accusing of “idolatry” JoshuaIsLord?Are you talking against our police?Are you making accusations against our military?Are you indicting people who guard politicians?Are you “the accuser” of criminals here?Or do you just mean “law-abiding citizens”?
Is it “all of them”?WHAT are you talking about?

Let me give you a real life example:

There is this one guy at our Parish. We occasionally visit him and his wife. The very first thing he wants to show me, is his latest and greatest Gun he just purchased. There is this gleam in his eyes that he is holding something holy. There is no gleam in his eye when he takes the Eucharist. ( yes, I am an EMHC and a Lector ) .

Do you get my point now about Idolatry? If it had not been for that person’s post pointing it out, I would have never connected the dots. Now if the first thing he wanted to show me was pictures of his grand kids, then that would be a different matter altogether.

Don’t get me wrong, I have guns too. But I don’t get all glassy eyed over them. I take them out to hunt only. My guns serve a purpose and only during hunting season. I don’t parade them about.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

the number of Australian households owning guns has been steadily declining.

how is this monitored? in a country where many did not turn in their guns during the ban, how many of these people will admit to owning a gun?

even here in the states many will not admit to gun ownership because of political realities.

can you provide a link showing the data

There is this from the University of Sydney.

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

There is this from the University of Sydney.

But although Australia hasn’t seen a public mass shooting since 1996, we have no shortage of firearm-related crime. Gun owners who know each other well – be they family members or gang members – have always been the ones to kill each other most frequently.

I would almost say “let them kill each other off.” if the criminals/family are whacking each other.

Then there’s the killer already in the room. About 80% of gun deaths in Australia have nothing to do with crime. Instead, they’re suicides and unintentional shootings.

Would’ve been nice if they broke this out into it’s component parts.

In the years that followed, gun-buying climbed steadily to new heights. By 2015, the arms trade had broken all previous records. Last financial year Australia imported 104,000 firearms.

The million guns destroyed after Port Arthur have been replaced with 1,026,000 new ones. And the surge only shows upward momentum.

No disrespect but what do you expect from a continent that was originally a Penal Colony…The gene pool is less than to be desired…

 

[Vonsalza]

then how do you account for austrailia have more guns now than before its ban?

Simple. The population of the country has increased. Per capita ownership is still a quarter lower than before Port Arthur.

Also, it’s obviously not a full “ban” on firearms, is it? Please stop labeling it as such.

so many illegal in fact that they just tried an amnesty to get 250,000 illegal guns off the street and only got 50k.

50k illegal guns off the street? Rejoice!

so much for the source drying up. it is an island with very good port security. how would that work here?

This is only your lack of education speaking, respectfully. Guns are not completely banned in Australia.

From an article written by an Aussie “gun nut” (a name I’ve used for myself as well) -
“It’s actually not that hard to own a gun. But you do have to have a genuine reason. You have to be a member of a target shooting club or a hunter and you have to prove it.”

do you expect the outside usa gun manufacturers to quit making guns because we ban them? worked for drugs.

I think we agree that a vial of crack is probably easier to hide than an AK-47, wouldn’t you think?
Additionally, drugs are reminiscent of the Chicago-Indiana problem: it’s too easy to get around the laws, since drugs can be produced anywhere.

Not so for a gun manufacturer. Basement-made “pipe guns” [read: eventual bombs] notwithstanding.

 

[Cathoholic]

JoshuaIsLord from post 1371 (with parenthetical addition mine and now bold mine for context):

.

You know the way I’ve seen Gun owners act with their guns, that is an absolute truth (“Gun owners” are worshiping the Constitution or committing “idolatry” with the Constitution).

.
Cathoholic’s response in post 1373 . . .

.

Just WHICH “gun owners” are you accusing of “idolatry” JoshuaIsLord?

Are you talking against our police?
Are you making accusations against our military?
Are you indicting people who guard politicians?
Are you “the accuser” of criminals here?
Or do you just mean “law-abiding citizens”?
Is it “all of them”?
WHAT are you talking about?

.

JoshuaIsLord In post 1377 (emphasis mine) . . . .

.

There is this one guy at our Parish. We occasionally visit him and his wife. The very first thing he wants to show me, is his latest and greatest Gun he just purchased. There is this gleam in his eyes that he is holding something holy. There is no gleam in his eye when he takes the Eucharist. ( yes, I am an EMHC and a Lector ) .
Do you get my point now about Idolatry?

.

No I don’t.

How many people at your parish have you judged to not have enough “gleam” so that YOU KNOW their interior disposition?

Is it just this one gun owner?

Or is it gun owners in particular?

How do you know your “gleam” judgment as an extraordinary minister of the Eucharist reveals someone’s interior life?

How long have you had that “gift” of being able to judge people’s souls and call them out on their “idolatry”?

WHY would God tell us only HE can judge souls (I agree God can give you information and insight into souls just like He did with St. Padre Pio and now you apparently)?

WHY paint “gun owners” in a bigoted manner when you could have just said “this one guy at our Parish” in the first place?

Are you prejudging “ALL” gun owners based upon YOUR judgment of the “gleam” or “lack of gleam” in this ONE parishioner, or do you see that in the streets among other gun owners too?

I agree it is appropriate to judge “actions” but to be able to peer into their soul concerning “idolatry” or not all based upon a “gleam” is . . . well . . . positively Divine!

.

JEREMIAH 11:20a But, O Lord of hosts, who judges righteously, who tests the heart and the mind . . .

.

ROMANS 2:1 1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.