Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

[ddarko]

Uh, the Orthodox Church’s position on Birth Control:

First of all, which church? The Old Calendarists, the New Calendarists, the Serbians, THe Ecumenical patriarchate, the Orthodox Church of Greece?

Second, the DAMITTED CONSENSUS OF THE ORTHODOX is that contraception IS NOT NORMAL OR IDEAL FOR ANY ORTHODOX BELIEVER.

However, they do leave the decision making to the individual with the guidance of a spiritual adviser.

Also, the Orthodox Cannot obtain a marriage annulment the way a Roman Catholic can, because the sacramental theology of marriage is slightly different.

In the Roman Catholic church the sacrament is administered by the individuals with the Church’s minister as a witness.

Therefore, any defect in sacramental form or matter or intent rests in the individuals being married: If someone was forced to appear against their will, the marriage was not Valid because there is a defect of intent. Hence, they can get an annulment.

In eastern theology however, which is also Catholic theology, the PRIEST administers the sacrament to the individuals, who basically don’t say a word the entire service. They are literally joined together by the Priest, acting on behalf of the Bishop who is the Ikon, or image of Christ.

THEREFORE, how can there be room for an anullment in eastern theology? The defect would have to lie in The PRIESTS intention, or form, or matter, because it is the PRIEST who confers the sacrament.

Therefore, the Orthodox church, implicitly acknowledges this by allowing divorce according to the words of Christ: “Marital unfaithfulness.” and Pauls words: “But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.”

THink about it.

First, Separation and Divorce are two different things. You are mixing the two in the case of Paul

Secondly, from the way you described marriage in the Orthodox church, it really isn’t a marriage. A priest can’t simply “marry” two people together without their consent. If consent is implied, then we are back to the same position as the Roman Catholics.

In short, lets not try to wiggle around here. The problem for the Orthodox is simple. Christ gave no exception for marriage. Given that the Orthodox are practicing this same marriage Christ referred to, then Orthodox can under NO situation grant Divorce. It would be a disobeying of Christ’s words. Btw, this itself should make you question the validity of the Orthodox church.

Now please understand, I used to be a very big “fan” of the Orthodox church. But when I realized your position on Birth Control and marriage, I can’t simply help but group you in with the protestant denominations. Sure, you have all these similarities. But so do Sedevacantists. So playing the similarity card is not good enough.

In short, if there is to be a communion, Orthodox can keep there liturgy, but they MUST change there stance on Divorce and Birth Control. Having a spiritual advisor say it’s ok does not mean I have the right to use contraception. Similarly, having my sins forgiven does not mean I can divorce my spouse. I am sorry but if you take a moment to think about what your church is doing, it should become evident to you that it is NOT the true church by just these two problems alone.

God Bless

 

[ciero]

Thank GOD your not in charge of the church!!!

 

[ddarko]

Thank GOD your not in charge of the church!!!

I would appreciate it if you see the problem rather than trying to get on the popular bandwagon of “Lets all get together”.

While getting together is nice, there is really no point in doing so if it does not make logical sense. In this case, for the Orthodox and Roman Catholics to get together without any change in their teachings makes Christianity it-self a joke. Two church’s can’t hold opposite positions (like with Divorce and Birth Control) and then claim they are both true.

So in short, address my arguments. I am glad that I am not in charge of the church as well. But as a Roman Catholic, it is my duty to defend the truth and not give in to some emotional need to unite. Plus, why on earth would you even care if I was in charge? Your conversion to the truth should be personal. Why are you relying on your leaders to make a call? I would think you would readily see what a joke it is if a protestant person said ‘‘I am going to wait to convert to Catholicism till my Pastor gives me the go ahead’’.

God Bless

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

Nobody is mentioning how difficult it can be to obtain an Orthodox divorce. They’re not handed out like candy canes.

 

[Gregory_I]

Listen here,

    I was presenting their perspective, not saying I advocate it.

I am against artificial birthcontrol and divorce.

Plus why is a gung-ho Latin coming in here and demolishing legitimate Catholic spiritualities?

 

[countertenor]

Because some Latins think the the only legitimate spirituality is theirs.

 

[Gregory_I]

I smell heresy…

 

[sidbrown]

Nobody is mentioning how difficult it can be to obtain an Orthodox divorce. They’re not handed out like candy canes.

This would be a difference then with Catholic annulments. Most people who apply for the annulment in the USA, get it approved.

 

[sidbrown]

I would like to see the Orthodox accept the indissolubility of marriage (no divorce) and correct it’s teachings on birth control.

What percent of Catholics today in the USA follow the teaching of the Catholic Church on birth control? Why are the Muslims becoming stronger in Europe, if not the fact that they are having large families whereas Catholics are not. I read that Benjamin Franklin, who was not a Catholic, had seventeen brothers and sisters. Now at the local Catholic Church here, most families are quite a bit smaller than that. What would be the reason as to why Catholics are having smaller families in the USA and Europe today, whereas Benjamin Franklin, who was not a Catholic, had seventeen brothers and sisters? How many Catholics do you know who have seventeen brothers and sisters?

 

[Seamus_L]

I don’t know why this topic is so popular with some people. It’s not about to happen anytime soon, so why worry about it. I think it’s pretty obvious that the Orthodox are very strongly against it, and I respect there position for seeing proposed union as being nothing more than a “we agree to disagree, but will still call ourselves one church” proposal.

 

[Triciacat]

Second, yes, sin can be forgiven by God, BUT that does not mean you can get divorced??? What on earth does that even mean? Can I kill someone too? I mean, God is going to forgive me right? Maybe I should put an upper-bound on that, two kills allowed per life time

Glory To Jesus Christ!

I was making a direct quote. Had I written the sentence myself, I might have written that an important distinction is that when Christ teaches that marriage may not be dissolved that does not mean that He is stating that it DOES NOT occur. Free will is required. “The “not separate” is a divine request, as is “do not kill”. But man is free and can dissolve his marriage and kill his fellow man. In both cases he commits grievous sin.” (N. Matsoukas, Dogmatic and Symbolic Theology, Thessalonica, 1988.)

 

[ddarko]

What percent of Catholics today in the USA follow the teaching of the Catholic Church on birth control? Why are the Muslims becoming stronger in Europe, if not the fact that they are having large families whereas Catholics are not. I read that Benjamin Franklin, who was not a Catholic, had seventeen brothers and sisters. Now at the local Catholic Church here, most families are quite a bit smaller than that. What would be the reason as to why Catholics are having smaller families in the USA and Europe today, whereas Benjamin Franklin, who was not a Catholic, had seventeen brothers and sisters? How many Catholics do you know who have seventeen brothers and sisters?

Ok this shows the biggest confusion even among Roman Catholics. What happens in the lives of the faithful and church’s teachings can UNFORTUNATELY differ. The church’s teachings are INFALLIBLE. But the church’s members are FALLIBLE in following them.

So yes, unfortunately in the Western Catholics, divorce, premarital and extra marital sex, pornography, prostitution, same sex marriage, abortion are rampant. IT DOES NOT MEAN THESE THINGS ARE OK NOW!!! It also CLEARLY does not mean that they are CATHOLIC CHURCH teachings now.

Just because most Catholics do it, DOES NOT make it the official Catholic teaching.

This is where you are going wrong my friend.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

Glory To Jesus Christ!

I was making a direct quote. Had I written the sentence myself, I might have written that an important distinction is that when Christ teaches that marriage may not be dissolved that does not mean that He is stating that it DOES NOT occur. Free will is required. “The “not separate” is a divine request, as is “do not kill”. But man is free and can dissolve his marriage and kill his fellow man. In both cases he commits grievous sin.” (N. Matsoukas, Dogmatic and Symbolic Theology, Thessalonica, 1988.)

About Jesus’s statements, NO. What are you really trying to say? Marriage is indissoluble but it occurs? How does that even make any logical sense? It’s like saying two true propositions can’t contradict each other but it occurs… and as you might readily admit in that case, it is absurd. Therefore so is what you are saying.

Now just as the teachings of the church are AGAINST murder, so should it be against Divorce. Free will here just means that every one can sin. But that doesn’t mean they can change the way things are by sinning. What you are saying is equivalent to saying, marriage is indissoluble but because I can divorce using my free will In short, you are reducing a super natural bond of the sacrament to something under your control. What going to be next? ''I am not eternal because I can find a way through science to destroy it"? I really don’t know why you don’t see that what you are saying is logically impossible to hold even as an Orthodox.

Also, giving an upper-bound on the number of times you can divorce is a joke. What next? Do you want to give an upperbound on the number of kills? the number of thefts? the number of times you can have sex with the same sex? How about a cap on the number of abortions? Like honestly, where does it stop?

So I really don’t know where you are trying to go with this. Sins are forgiven, but that in no way means your church should put an upperbound on the number of times and let it happen.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

Listen here,

    I was presenting their perspective, not saying I advocate it.

I am against artificial birthcontrol and divorce.

Plus why is a gung-ho Latin coming in here and demolishing legitimate Catholic spiritualities?

Hey,

I am not here to demolish other spiritualities. I am simply pointing out whats wrong.

What do you think I would do if I met a Sedevecantist? They share almost 99% of the Roman Catholic teachings. All that means is that they should easily be able to identify the errors in their thinking.

Same goes for the Orthodox. Their similarity with the Roman Church does not mean they can agree to disagree on conflicting issues like Divorce and Birth Control. One is right and the other is wrong.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

Because some Latins think the the only legitimate spirituality is theirs.

If your church does allow Divorce and Birth Control, needless to state the nature of your church’s spirituality anymore.

Those are grave sins and it would further mean that your church is leading the faithful astray.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

I smell heresy…

Yes, a supposedly “true” church saying it’s ok to Divorce (refusing to accept Christ’s direct words) and practice Birth Control, and leading the faithful astray is quiet a heresy indeed.

God Bless

 

[Triciacat]

About Jesus’s statements, NO. What are you really trying to say? Marriage is indissoluble but it occurs? How does that even make any logical sense? It’s like saying two true propositions can’t contradict each other but it occurs… and as you might readily admit in that case, it is absurd. Therefore so is what you are saying.

Now just as the teachings of the church are AGAINST murder, so should it be against Divorce. Free will here just means that every one can sin. But that doesn’t mean they can change the way things are by sinning. What you are saying is equivalent to saying, marriage is indissoluble but because I can divorce using my free will In short, you are reducing a super natural bond of the sacrament to something under your control. What going to be next? ''I am not eternal because I can find a way through science to destroy it"? I really don’t know why you don’t see that what you are saying is logically impossible to hold even as an Orthodox.

Also, giving an upper-bound on the number of times you can divorce is a joke. What next? Do you want to give an upperbound on the number of kills? the number of thefts? the number of times you can have sex with the same sex? How about a cap on the number of abortions? Like honestly, where does it stop?

So I really don’t know where you are trying to go with this. Sins are forgiven, but that in no way means your church should put an upperbound on the number of times and let it happen.

God Bless

Unfortunately, I don’t feel I can explain this any better than how I have already. Perhaps this page will assist you:

orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/athenagoras_remarriage.htm

Yours in Christ,
Triciacat

 

[ddarko]

Unfortunately, I don’t feel I can explain this any better than how I have already. Perhaps this page will assist you:

orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/athenagoras_remarriage.htm

Yours in Christ,
Triciacat

I understood you very clearly. And as I said before, you are making this overly complicated.

Bottom line is this, the Roman Catholic granting of the sacrament of marriage and the Orthodox might be different. But it is irrelevant to this matter here.

If we are talking about the same sacrament that Christ established as marriage, then your church is going against his words. Simple as that. Or are you trying to say the ‘‘marriage’’ in your church is not really a marriage to being with ?

The real absurdity of the web page you present is that at the end it says

“The Church has been faithful throughout the centuries to the principle referred to by Paul, that a second marriage is an aberration of the Christian statute. In this sense the orthodox doctrine confirms not only the “indissolubility” of marriage, but also its uniqueness. Every true marriage can be uniquely the “only” one.”

Is this a joke? Orthodox allow remarriage.

Also, just because I am fallen, doesn’t mean I can do anything. This is rather elementary. Is the Orthodox church willing to give an allowance on the kill count for it’s members? No right? Doesn’t that even sound absurd? So the same holds for marriage. If someone divorces, he has committed a sin. If he remarries it’s even worse.

I really don’t see much of a defense on that web page except trying to somehow make it look legit by mixing it with truths.

God Bless

 

[Triciacat]

Or are you trying to say the ‘‘marriage’’ in your church is not really a marriage to being with ?

The link I posted explains what constitutes an Orthodox marriage.

Regards,
Triciacat

 

[ddarko]

The link I posted explains what constitutes an Orthodox marriage.

Regards,
Triciacat

Thanks. That it does. But it is irrelevant to this discussion unless you are trying to say ‘‘what we orthodox practice is not marriage as Christ instituted anyway’’. In that case, well, anything goes

God Bless