Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

[hazcompat]

It doesn’t really sound the same to me (although I may of course be misremembering Ryan’s position).

Essentially you’re saying that for an Orthodox who converts to Catholicism there’s no downside, right?

What would they(Orthodox) convert from? We need the Holy Spirit to plainly show us Truth in Jesus Christ in a Simplicity which translates time and circumstance so all involved concur. The particulars can be excruciatingly Hammered out as seems to be our nature.

peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

Essentially you’re saying that for an Orthodox who converts to Catholicism there’s no downside, right?

“but not the dogma of papal infallibility-the Orthodox simply reject it.”

Thats his position I picked up on, quoted out of his statement. Which I do see as the larger issue especially in relation to “Papal” infallibility V-I and V-II. Infallibilty I’m sure we all can agree has always existed in the Apostolic Churchs. Of course this may be an assumption on my part? Maybe we do not even agree here?

However, I’d be interested in hearing what that downside was, yes. I’m inclined to believe no change has occured in the Eastern Rite churchs. Though prehaps I am wrong?

Peace.

 

[Peter_J]

What would they(Orthodox) convert from?

What would they convert from? I’m not sure if you mean this as a rhetorical question, but if you don’t my answer would be: Orthodoxy.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What would they(Orthodox) convert from? We need the Holy Spirit to plainly show us Truth in Jesus Christ in a Simplicity which translates time and circumstance so all involved concur. The particulars can be excruciatingly Hammered out as seems to be our nature.

peace

“excruciatingly Hammered out as seems to be our nature.” lol, yes that seems to be the pattern doesn’t it.

Believe it or not though I have seen progress over the years here. This issue I mention though, this one is the most difficult.

Peace

 

[Peter_J]

I find that the easy conversion idea, or whatever we want to call it, is fairly common among Catholics and Orthodox alike. Taking the liberty of quoting myself,
Peter J:

J Michael:

Peter J:

I’ve spoken with an RC priest. *He said “it should be easy for you.”

Frankly I can’t *believe *how many people will say that to someone who’s thinking of leaving Orthodoxy for Catholicism, or vice versa.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I would never consider becoming Orthodox; but I’m saying it could never be an “easy” thing for me to do, as it would mean leaving Catholicism.

How difficult can it be to go to confession and recite the Profession of Faith?

I think you may have just proven my point.

• orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42901.msg721102.html#msg721102

 

[hazcompat]

What would they convert from? I’m not sure if you mean this as a rhetorical question, but if you don’t my answer would be: Orthodoxy.

Respectfully, then we see the situation differently. There is one church, those who perceive themselves as separate and distinct are in reality ONE. Unity does not mean uniformity. There can be no unity outside of the Truth of Jesus Christ. Our Orthodox brethren are being asked to reject the truth for the sake of unity. Would you? What I am saying is the Holy Spirit can open the eyes of our minds to perceive the Truth. Justice and Mercy embrace. Our Lord has entrusted a mission to us involving the world.

peace

 

[Peter_J]

Respectfully, then we see the situation differently. There is one church, those who perceive themselves as separate and distinct are in reality ONE. Unity does not mean uniformity. There can be no unity outside of the Truth of Jesus Christ. Our Orthodox brethren are being asked to reject the truth for the sake of unity.

I think most Catholics would say that Orthodox are being asked, not to reject the truth, but to accept the *real *truth.

 

[Peter_J]

Would you?

I don’t know if anyone can answer this kind of hypothetical with certainly. However, I have given this some thought over the years, and I believe that if I were a cradle Orthodox, I probably would *not *swim the Tiber. Fortunately, being a cradle Catholic, I’ve never had to decide – though, of course, that means I *am *faced with the question of whether to swim the Bosphorus.

 

[hazcompat]

I think most Catholics would say that Orthodox are being asked, not asked to reject the truth, but to accept the *real *truth.

I thought we call it the fullness of truth?

peace

 

[RyanBlack]

I think most Catholics would say that Orthodox are being asked, not asked to reject the truth, but to accept the *real *truth.

And, of course, when Catholics are asked, for the sake of unity, to set aside the filioque, purgatory, the Assumption, and the Immaculate Conceptions as dogmas, rather than accept them simply as acceptable theolougomena, and reject papal infallibility and papal supremacy entirely, they see it as rejection of the truth, but I suppose most Orthodox would say that they would be accepting the “real” truth. So, there we are. As long as we beat each other over the head with triumphalistic claims, we can forget any chance of unity. Both sides are at fault for the state of schism. Both sides share in the responsibility for the scandal that has been created. It is only through humility and that reconciliation will ever happen.

 

[Hesychios]

I thought we call it the fullness of truth?

peace

If you are referring to Orthodox belief that would be correct.

 

[Peter_J]

It was asked earlier, “What would they(Orthodox) convert from?” when they convert to Catholicism.

The flip side of this question hasn’t been posted, but it seems it should be for the sake of completeness. That question would be: when Catholics convert to Orthodoxy, what do they convert to?

Also, here’s something I was just thinking, which seems rather appropriate for this thread: I’ve noticed that many Catholics have, simultaneously, very high *and *very low opinions of Orthodox, and vice versa. I think the opinions that Catholics and Orthodox have of Protestants and Anglicans are much simpler and easier to understand: they’re bad.

 

[Peter_J]

And, of course, when Catholics are asked, for the sake of unity, to set aside the filioque, purgatory, the Assumption, and the Immaculate Conceptions as dogmas, rather than accept them simply as acceptable theolougomena, and reject papal infallibility and papal supremacy entirely, they see it as rejection of the truth, but I suppose most Orthodox would say that they would be accepting the “real” truth. So, there we are. As long as we beat each other over the head with triumphalistic claims, we can forget any chance of unity. Both sides are at fault for the state of schism. Both sides share in the responsibility for the scandal that has been created. It is only through humility and that reconciliation will ever happen.

This isn’t really a response to your post, but I just want say that I like Fr. Robert Hart’s term for Orthodoxy and Catholicism: “the Two One True Churches”.

Against the backdrop of current news that highlights the “realignment” within the Anglican Communion-those other Anglicans who don’t always share our convictions-the following was in an e-mail from a long time friend:

“The only two churches that have enough past to be taken seriously in the future do not show the slightest interest in any such realignment.”

This friend long ago became a member of the Orthodox Church, and his sentence is about those exclusive and unique (?) institutions we may call the Two One True Churches.

• from The Odd Couple

 

[hazcompat]

If you are referring to Orthodox belief that would be correct.

and if i am referring to the western church, that would be correct. the Truth cannot be dilute(omnipotent). Come Holy Spirit.

peace

 

[Peter_J]

If you are referring to Orthodox belief that would be correct.

That’s not the way I took it, but don’t go by me b/c I’m quite puzzled at this point, excepting that I’m pretty sure there’s some kind of joke going on there.

His original statement that I was responding to said “Our Orthodox brethren are being asked to reject the truth for the sake of unity.”

 

[Hesychios]

and if i am referring to the western church, that would be correct. the Truth cannot be dilute(omnipotent). Come Holy Spirit.

peace

I think perhaps (I don’t really know, but it seems to me) that your comment “the Truth cannot be dilute” is a knee jerk reaction after discussing religion with Protestants, who definitely reject true doctrine shared by Western Catholics and Orthodox Eastern Catholics alike (perhaps I am wrong about that). I know Orthodox Christian Faith is anything but dilute.

I think we can agree that Orthodox belief and Western Catholic belief are not the same, and those who say it is are deceiving themselves. Am I right about that? Can we agree?

I have not discussed this with you before but I assume we can also agree that the Western Catholic belief is evolved and has developed over time, it has more dogmas than the Orthodox Eastern Catholic belief.

I think (at least I assume) that you will agree with me that the Western Catholic church governs itself in a very sophisticated highly developed manner, more sophisticated and more developed than the Orthodox church, and that this form of governance has evolved and developed over time, and that the underpinning and justification of this developed form of governance is one of several dogmas which is not shared by the Orthodox Eastern Catholics. Can you agree with me about that?

I can agree to disagree with you on which church has the fullness of Truth, you are entitled to your opinion as well as I, and I think we can agree on what some of the differences are.

It was asked earlier, “What would they(Orthodox) convert from?” when they convert to Catholicism.

I take it that they would add to the number of dogmas they would be expected to assent to. Denying any of that particular subset of dogmas would expose them to anathema.

The flip side of this question hasn’t been posted, but it seems it should be for the sake of completeness. That question would be: when Catholics convert to Orthodoxy, what do they convert to?

I take it that they would subtract from the number of dogmas they would be expected to assent to.

 

[Hesychios]

His original statement that I was responding to said “Our Orthodox brethren are being asked to reject the truth for the sake of unity.”

That was a rhetorical device. I am sure he doesn’t believe that himself but it is true that when Western Catholics expect Orthodox to join them in one church while the Western church still teaches errors that Orthodox are being asked to accept errors, as if it doesn’t matter. Most Western Catholics have a hard time grasping that.

It would be just like insisting the RC merge with the Lutheran churches, without expecting the Lutherans to change their beliefs. Is that a compromise RC are willing to make for the sake of unity?

 

[GaryTaylor]

And, of course, when Catholics are asked, for the sake of unity, to set aside the filioque, purgatory, the Assumption, and the Immaculate Conceptions as dogmas, rather than accept them simply as acceptable theolougomena, and reject papal infallibility and papal supremacy entirely, they see it as rejection of the truth, but I suppose most Orthodox would say that they would be accepting the “real” truth. So, there we are. As long as we beat each other over the head with triumphalistic claims, we can forget any chance of unity. Both sides are at fault for the state of schism. Both sides share in the responsibility for the scandal that has been created. It is only through humility and that reconciliation will ever happen.

Well said, and more in line with my present state of mind.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I have given this some thought over the years, and I believe that if I were a cradle Orthodox, I probably would *not *swim the Tiber. Fortunately, being a cradle Catholic, I’ve never had to decide – though, of course, that means I *am *faced with the question of whether to swim the Bosphorus.

Well its honest, and too here reside’s many of the exiting issues all around the board. I would assume its very easy to become subjected to learned behavior in either situation. So to step outside and see objectively becomes imperative. Easier said than done.

 

[hazcompat]

From the pastoral constitution on the Church in the modern world of the Second Vatican Council
All human activity is to find its purification in the paschal mystery

Holy Scripture, with which the experience of the ages is in agreement, teaches the human family that human progress, though it is a great blessing for man, brings with it a great temptation. When the scale of values is disturbed and evil becomes mixed with good, individuals and groups consider only their own interests, not those of others.

The result is that the world is not yet a home of true brotherhood, while the increased power of mankind already threatens to destroy the human race itself.

If it is asked how this unhappy state of affairs can be set right, Christians state their belief that all human activity, in daily jeopardy through pride and inordinate self-love, is to find its purification and its perfection in the cross and resurrection of Christ.

Man, redeemed by Christ and made a new creation in the Holy Spirit, can and must love the very things created by God. For he receives them from God, and sees and reveres them as coming from the hand of God.

As he gives thanks for them to his Benefactor, and uses and enjoys them in a spirit of poverty and freedom, he enters into true possession of the world, as one having nothing and possessing all things. For all things are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

The Word of God, through whom all things were made, himself became man and lived in the world of men. As perfect man he has entered into the history of the world, taking it up into himself and bringing it into unity as its head. He reveals to us that God is love, and at the same time teaches us that the fundamental law of human perfection, and therefore of the transformation of the world, is the new commandment of love.

He assures those who have faith in God’s love that the way of love is open to all men, and that the effort to restore universal brotherhood is not in vain. At the same time he warns us that this love is not to be sought after only in great things but also, and above all, in the ordinary circumstances of life.

He suffered death for us all, sinners as we are, and by his example he teaches us that we also have to carry that cross which the flesh and the world lay on the shoulders of those who strive for peace and justice.

Constituted as the Lord by his resurrection, Christ, to whom all power in heaven and on earth has been given, is still at work in the hearts of men through the power of his Spirit. Not only does he awaken in them a longing for the world to come, but by that very fact he also inspires, purifies and strengthens those generous desires by which the human family seeks to make its own life more human and to achieve the same goal for the whole world.

The gifts of the Spirit are manifold. He calls some to bear open witness to the longing for a dwelling place in heaven, and to keep this fresh in the minds of all mankind; he calls others to dedicate themselves to the service of men here on earth, preparing by this ministry the material for the kingdom of heaven.

Yet he makes all free, so that, by denying their love of self and taking up all earth’s resources into the life of man, all may reach out to the future, when humanity itself will become an offering acceptable to God.

peace