Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

[Ghosty]

Theology of marriage is not something that I have studied that much. It is my understanding that Latin marriages are eternal in the sense that they can not be broken asunder, except in the case of death appearntly. I have been told by Orthodox that marriage is eternal in Orthodox theology, and I think that is a reasonable suggestion. Perhaps the life of a marriage in the hereafter will be vastly different (“we will live as the angels”, such as perhaps continuing in a spiritual state of marriage and not a physical one? I do not know). Only the first marriage is eternal, as the second and third marriages are not Holy Mysteries, but merely allowances for human weakness.

Unfortunately Christ contradicts the notion of “Heavenly marriage”. He says in Luke 20:

27]
There came to him some Sadducees, those who say that there is no resurrection,

28] and they asked him a question, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies, having a wife but no children, the man must take the wife and raise up children for his brother.
29] Now there were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and died without children;
30] and the second
31] and the third took her, and likewise all seven left no children and died.
32] Afterward the woman also died.
33] In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the woman be? For the seven had her as wife.”
34]
And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage;

35] but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,
36] for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

It would seem that the notion that marriage is eternal is a tradition of men, not a Divine teaching.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Mojo674]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I believe union will come, but Number 1 is a RIDICULOUS Statement. I am Byzantine Catholic and have been for life. When I had questions about the Immaculate Conception I asked one of my older friends who is a priest. He has his Sacred Theology Doctorate and was the Dean of the Byzantine Catholic Seminary in Pittsburgh for many years. He told me although we are “technically bound” by the Roman Catholic Immaculate Conception, we basically follow that she was purified and whatever needed to be done WAS done when she said “Yes” to God. Even in our Byzantine Catholic Church Books all of our Kontakions, Troparions, and other hymns express the Theotokos and her purity in the ORTHODOX view. We must understand that Roman Catholics cannot just force upon Orthodox their teachings because even us Byzantines are Mystical we go on Tradition and our Canon Code is rock solid yet small. So I am sad to say that I am disgusted at this poll because it talks more about submission to the Romans than union with the East. I Pain because of the Great Schism my Grandparents on my fathers side and so on were all Russian Orthodox and they came over here to the United States. We cannot bash their teachings because some Roman Catholics do not understand that the Eastern Catholic Churches are 97% alike to the Orthodox on the matters of everything. We must learn that we both of different traditions but neither are harmful we both arrive at the same idea. I technically do not have to believe in Purgatory but many Romans fail to understand that even the Orthodox believe in an intermediary stage we just don’t place a name on it or define it because that is LEGALISM. Sorry for the harsh words I respect all of the my Roman friends but I dislike it when they believe they are experts on the Eastern Churches when they haven’t even been to one. If you are in the East and truly are mystical you will feel the pain of the Great Schism as if it happened yesterday, many Romans fail to see or feel that way. Just as the Roman Catholics hurt from the Reformation, we Easterners are dying and crying for Unity with Our Brothers and Sisters In Christ.

May God Grant You Many Happy Years!

 

[JackQ]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I believe union will come, but Number 1 is a RIDICULOUS Statement. I am Byzantine Catholic and have been for life. When I had questions about the Immaculate Conception I asked one of my older friends who is a priest. He has his Sacred Theology Doctorate and was the Dean of the Byzantine Catholic Seminary in Pittsburgh for many years. He told me although we are “technically bound” by the Roman Catholic Immaculate Conception, we basically follow that she was purified and whatever needed to be done WAS done when she said “Yes” to God. Even in our Byzantine Catholic Church Books all of our Kontakions, Troparions, and other hymns express the Theotokos and her purity in the ORTHODOX view. We must understand that Roman Catholics cannot just force upon Orthodox their teachings because even us Byzantines are Mystical we go on Tradition and our Canon Code is rock solid yet small. So I am sad to say that I am disgusted at this poll because it talks more about submission to the Romans than union with the East. I Pain because of the Great Schism my Grandparents on my fathers side and so on were all Russian Orthodox and they came over here to the United States. We cannot bash their teachings because some Roman Catholics do not understand that the Eastern Catholic Churches are 97% alike to the Orthodox on the matters of everything. We must learn that we both of different traditions but neither are harmful we both arrive at the same idea. I technically do not have to believe in Purgatory but many Romans fail to understand that even the Orthodox believe in an intermediary stage we just don’t place a name on it or define it because that is LEGALISM. Sorry for the harsh words I respect all of the my Roman friends but I dislike it when they believe they are experts on the Eastern Churches when they haven’t even been to one. If you are in the East and truly are mystical you will feel the pain of the Great Schism as if it happened yesterday, many Romans fail to see or feel that way. Just as the Roman Catholics hurt from the Reformation, we Easterners are dying and crying for Unity with Our Brothers and Sisters In Christ.

May God Grant You Many Happy Years!

Is it unity with the Orthodox that you desire? I wish the same. But I must say that the Orthodox have even a lower opinion of you than they do of us Roman Catholics. They refer to you as Uniates, and consider you traitors to your heritage. It is the Orthodox who agitate against the establishment of an Eastern Catholic Patriarchate in the Ukraine. When Catholic bishops meet with Orthodox bishops, the Orthodox will walk out if Eastern Catholic bishops are present. I am of the firm belief that we Roman Catholics should not disrespect the Eastern Catholics in order to curry favor with the Orthodox. For heaven’s sake, please don’t disrespect yourselves.

 

[pipper]

I have a question. All along we have been disscussing Union, but shouldn’t we be discussing REunion?

After all we were one already until the great schism,so it would be reunion or restoration of union.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Formosus,

-Mardukm
I read in one of your posts on this thread that the Coptic Orthodox explain that divorce is allowed because one of the spouses as suffered spiritual death. Perhaps in many of the way that the modern EO allows for ecclesial divorce, this reason could not be used. But I think you could find ways to use this same justification for a good deal of the canons allowing divorce in the EO church. Either way, if the EO is not following the patristic tradition faithfully on this point then they should modify their canons and that perhaps that could work as a grounds for reunification on the issue of marriage/divorce among all the apostolic churches.

I agree. If the EO permissions for divorce and remarriage are merely ecclesiastical laws, then it wouldn’t seem to be such a drastic change. As I understand it, the canons for divorce and remarriage in some of the EO Churches were only established in the mid-20th century.

Blessings

 

[sidbrown]

St. Epiphanius actually made no allowance for remarriage after divorce that I can see.!

The following passage shows that St. Epiphanius did allow Christians to remarry after divorce:
“He who cannot keep continence after the death of his first wife, or who has separated from his wife for a valid motive, as fornication, adultery, or another misdeed, if he takes another wife, or if the wife takes another husband, the divine word does not condemn him nor exclude him from the Church or the life; but she tolerates it rather on account of his weakness. Not that this man can keep two wives in his home, the first one still hanging around him. But if he is actually separated from his first wife, he may take another according to the law, if this be his desire.(Panarion, heresy 59, PG 41:1025).
Also see the following references for this:
Divorce and remarriage: religious and psychological perspectives
By William P. Roberts p. 20
books.google.com/books?id=0GEcSJNUiOMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Divorce+and+remarriage+Roberts&hl=en&ei=LaL4TP34IoGC8gaM7szrCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[sidbrown]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I believe union will come, but Number 1 is a RIDICULOUS Statement. I am Byzantine Catholic and have been for life. When I had questions about the Immaculate Conception I asked one of my older friends who is a priest. He has his Sacred Theology Doctorate and was the Dean of the Byzantine Catholic Seminary in Pittsburgh for many years. He told me although we are “technically bound” by the Roman Catholic Immaculate Conception, we basically follow that she was purified and whatever needed to be done WAS done when she said “Yes” to God. Even in our Byzantine Catholic Church Books all of our Kontakions, Troparions, and other hymns express the Theotokos and her purity in the ORTHODOX view. We must understand that Roman Catholics cannot just force upon Orthodox their teachings because even us Byzantines are Mystical we go on Tradition and our Canon Code is rock solid yet small. So I am sad to say that I am disgusted at this poll because it talks more about submission to the Romans than union with the East. I Pain because of the Great Schism my Grandparents on my fathers side and so on were all Russian Orthodox and they came over here to the United States. We cannot bash their teachings because some Roman Catholics do not understand that the Eastern Catholic Churches are 97% alike to the Orthodox on the matters of everything. We must learn that we both of different traditions but neither are harmful we both arrive at the same idea. I technically do not have to believe in Purgatory but many Romans fail to understand that even the Orthodox believe in an intermediary stage we just don’t place a name on it or define it because that is LEGALISM. Sorry for the harsh words I respect all of the my Roman friends but I dislike it when they believe they are experts on the Eastern Churches when they haven’t even been to one. If you are in the East and truly are mystical you will feel the pain of the Great Schism as if it happened yesterday, many Romans fail to see or feel that way. Just as the Roman Catholics hurt from the Reformation, we Easterners are dying and crying for Unity with Our Brothers and Sisters In Christ.

May God Grant You Many Happy Years!

Yes, the way to reunion will be difficult. 1000 years of separation is a long time.

 

[mardukm]

Dear sister Triciacat,

Yes, doctrine concerning fornication is divine law. I agree! I understand the differences between fornication and adultery, but surely you realize that it is the interpretations of fornication that account for doctrinal differences! I would prefer to limit that discussion for another thread. Thanks to everyone for kindly providing the Catholic explanation in posts recently on this thread. It has been a great educational experience. I have read Jimmy Akin’s account of Matthew 5:32 and can appreciate the Catholic interpretation of this gospel.

Wow! It’s rare that a non-Catholic actually acknowledges the Catholic interpretation. Thank you.

I think what many people don’t understand, Mardukum, is that an Orthodox marriage is spiritual, and not primarily a means for procreation. It is a function of the married couple’s journey towards completeness in Christ. In 1 Cor. 7…

I guess you did not know this, but the Catholic Church recognizes the use of the “Pauline privilege.” A prior marriage between a believer and unbeliever may be dissolved if the separation is not the fault of the believer, and the believer wishes to marry another believer.

Clearly, Paul is distinguishing between godly and ungodly situations…God calls upon us to “judge not, that ye not be judged.” God does not call upon us to judge the godliness of a “marital” situation! That is for Him alone! We must exercise extreme caution when using pure logic in a delicate circumstances. The absence of this in certain situations is what I have always found distubing about Catholic doctrine.

I guess the Catholic position has alwasy been that it is better to care for the soul than the body - it is better to work for eternal reward, than temporal satisfaction. Judge it as you may.

I am sorry that that you see the administering of kindness and mercy in certain painful situations by the Orthodox church as wrong. Remaining single after a divorce can be a higher calling, but, unfortunately other sins may enter into the situation should the church insist a person remain single, and cause a person to forfeit eternal life. Also unfortunate is that the spirit of the Pharisees often comes into play and and we judge and demand sacrifice from others and not ourselves instead of bestowing kindness and mercy, as Jesus did for us, as is the case when the church demands that divorced people not remarry.

Some may view allowing a person to sin in adultery and risking eternal damnation as not “bestowing kindness and mercy” in the least. I am not at this point supporting either position, but you should be aware of how the other side may look at the situation.

Economia is, therefore, a bishop’s discretionary power to dispense with the ordinary church discipline, or the strict application of the ordinary rules or canon of the Church as their provisions do not always precisely cover every situation that might arise.

I don’t quite follow that rationale since the indissolubility of marriage is a divine law, not merely “ordinary church discipline.”

Such dispensations are made with a view towards putting the spirit before the letter and helping the cause of the salvation of souls. Not that the Orthodox church gives a “get-out-of-jail-free” card! This, in my opinion, seems more prevalent in the Catholic church…in Orthodoxy, a person has confession, admits the sin, asks the forgiveness of God, and has the inclusion of special prayers in the remarriage ceremony. We must trust that our church, under the Holy Spirit, is guiding our leaders in a holy fashion. A difficult task at times, indeed. Our earthly marriage does not last into eternity as does our spiritual marriage to Christ, it is this latter marriage that is of paramount importance and must be considered if our earthly marriage is drawing us away from the word of God and eternal life.

As stated before, I can (not necessarily do, I’m always on the fence on this issue) accept the principle that the Church with the power of the keys can remit the eternal and temporal punishment of the sin of adultery, and therefore allow a second marriage while the other spouse is still alive (I can accept a third only if the other spouse is dead). But I would only accept such second marriages for persons who were not at fault for the separation. This is the standard of the COC. I think the EO are more liberal and would permit a second marriage even for the adulterer, if the adulterer confesses. Nor do I accept the rationale often given that a second marriage while the other spouse is still alive is allowed according to St. Paul’s exhortation “it is better to marry than be given to lust.” St. Paul clearly stated this only in reference to first marriages, or if the other spouse is dead. There is absolutely no scriptural warrant to permit second marriages while the other spouse is alive.

Thanks again to everyone for their posts on this thread. This will be my last one on this topic and I will now move on to other things…as I haven’t yet had my first marriage ceremony!

Your posts have been very kind and thoughtful.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Mojo674]

Is it unity with the Orthodox that you desire? I wish the same. But I must say that the Orthodox have even a lower opinion of you than they do of us Roman Catholics. They refer to you as Uniates, and consider you traitors to your heritage. It is the Orthodox who agitate against the establishment of an Eastern Catholic Patriarchate in the Ukraine. When Catholic bishops meet with Orthodox bishops, the Orthodox will walk out if Eastern Catholic bishops are present. I am of the firm belief that we Roman Catholics should not disrespect the Eastern Catholics in order to curry favor with the Orthodox. For heaven’s sake, please don’t disrespect yourselves.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I understand that many Roman Catholics wish for unity. I am sorry for my “harsh” response but everything I speak of is true. The Orthodox should not be submissive to the Romans just as the Romans would never be submissive to the Orthodox. I also understand Jack about when the Orthodox would not see us, and they called us traitors. BUT through the years we have regained conversation with them, and present day we often will come to agreement and welcome each other more than the Orthodox do with the Romans. They understand that we are their brothers and have not betrayed them now. On top of this Uniates is a Roman word for us Eastern Catholics, it has never been used by an Orthodox. I would never disrespect my faith, and with all do respect I believe you are taking these Orthodox comments and events when the union was still fresh. Today is a different age, one in which us Byzantines and Easterners have constant contact with our brethren, and that 97% helps us incredibly. I respect your view, and your information but times have changed Jack.

God Grant You Many Happy and Blessed Years!

 

[Gregory_I]

Which ecumenical council or general roman or eastern council established that the Eastern Orthodox Church and the ROman Catholic CHurch are not members , one of another?

I believe none did.

Are we really different churches then?

Or Just feuding family?

 

[dvdjs]

“Let me make a somewhat dramatic statement: for some reason, I suspect that we do not desire real unity enough. If we wanted unity very much, we would have got it already. We are not ready to sacrifice a great lot for the sake of real unity between Christians from all sides and without excluding anyone. All of us, Christians, do not want it enough,” concluded [Patriarch Lubomyr].

sainteliaschurch.blogspot.com/2010/12/stop-blaming-greek-catholics.html

 

[DavidKays]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I believe union will come, but Number 1 is a RIDICULOUS Statement. I am Byzantine Catholic and have been for life. When I had questions about the Immaculate Conception I asked one of my older friends who is a priest. He has his Sacred Theology Doctorate and was the Dean of the Byzantine Catholic Seminary in Pittsburgh for many years. He told me although we are “technically bound” by the Roman Catholic Immaculate Conception, we basically follow that she was purified and whatever needed to be done WAS done when she said “Yes” to God. Even in our Byzantine Catholic Church Books all of our Kontakions, Troparions, and other hymns express the Theotokos and her purity in the ORTHODOX view. We must understand that Roman Catholics cannot just force upon Orthodox their teachings because even us Byzantines are Mystical we go on Tradition and our Canon Code is rock solid yet small. So I am sad to say that I am disgusted at this poll because it talks more about submission to the Romans than union with the East. I Pain because of the Great Schism my Grandparents on my fathers side and so on were all Russian Orthodox and they came over here to the United States. We cannot bash their teachings because some Roman Catholics do not understand that the Eastern Catholic Churches are 97% alike to the Orthodox on the matters of everything. We must learn that we both of different traditions but neither are harmful we both arrive at the same idea. I technically do not have to believe in Purgatory but many Romans fail to understand that even the Orthodox believe in an intermediary stage we just don’t place a name on it or define it because that is LEGALISM. Sorry for the harsh words I respect all of the my Roman friends but I dislike it when they believe they are experts on the Eastern Churches when they haven’t even been to one. If you are in the East and truly are mystical you will feel the pain of the Great Schism as if it happened yesterday, many Romans fail to see or feel that way. Just as the Roman Catholics hurt from the Reformation, we Easterners are dying and crying for Unity with Our Brothers and Sisters In Christ.

May God Grant You Many Happy Years!

Hi Mojo! I am a Greek Orthodox christian and I welcome your words. I do not think you have been harsh at all. If you like to know, your concerns are very important and will give us Orthodox the willingness to work for unity. I honestly believe that unity will come but it will be God’s doing and not ours. I believe none of the mistakes from the past will prevent God from uniting His Church. His timetable is different from ours and He will have His day. Neither the sins of Israel prevented the coming of Our Lord and neither the sins of the past will stop God from uniting His Church. It will come. I liken our Church as to a triangle. In the beginning we the East and the West were more like the bottom of the triangle. The distance at the bottom shows how far apart we were geographically. We could not speak each others language and we hardly had any contact with each other so there was hardly any intercommunions. But look at the triangle and you will see each side one on the left and one on the right converging closer to a common point. This is the timetable of God. He has been bringing up 2 independant Churches so that when they have matured enough He will bring them together as does the left and right sides of the triangle converge together at the top. It was always in the plan of God to bring up these 2 independantly of each other so that when He decides He will bring them both together. Just like a husband and wife are brought up independantly before they come together the Lord was doing the same with the West ( Catholic ) and the East. Just as the man and woman can have different ways so then East and West has also different respective teachings. God will bring both together in His own Time and neither you or I or anyone can stop Him. Neither our sins of the past nor the sins that each Church has done to each other will prevent the Lord in accomplishing His Work. As the scripture has said " This was God’s doing, and it was marvelous in our eyes! " We are now in the beginning stages of the fullfillment of God’s work in establishing unity. The process has begun and will reach fullfillment in accordance to the timetable of God and not to our timetable.

 

[JackQ]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I understand that many Roman Catholics wish for unity. I am sorry for my “harsh” response but everything I speak of is true. The Orthodox should not be submissive to the Romans just as the Romans would never be submissive to the Orthodox. I also understand Jack about when the Orthodox would not see us, and they called us traitors. BUT through the years we have regained conversation with them, and present day we often will come to agreement and welcome each other more than the Orthodox do with the Romans. They understand that we are their brothers and have not betrayed them now. On top of this Uniates is a Roman word for us Eastern Catholics, it has never been used by an Orthodox. I would never disrespect my faith, and with all do respect I believe you are taking these Orthodox comments and events when the union was still fresh. Today is a different age, one in which us Byzantines and Easterners have constant contact with our brethren, and that 97% helps us incredibly. I respect your view, and your information but times have changed Jack.

God Grant You Many Happy and Blessed Years!

I wish I thought you were right. You’ve been talking to different Orthodox Christians than I have.

 

[shaky]

Dear brother Formosus,

I agree. If the EO permissions for divorce and remarriage are merely ecclesiastical laws, then it wouldn’t seem to be such a drastic change. As I understand it, the canons for divorce and remarriage in some of the EO Churches were only established in the mid-20th century.

Blessings

It would be drastic. You can’t expect all divorced and remarried in the EO to Seperate.
What evidence do you have that the canons of the EO was the mid 20th century?

 

[JackQ]

Which ecumenical council or general roman or eastern council established that the Eastern Orthodox Church and the ROman Catholic CHurch are not members , one of another?

I believe none did.

Are we really different churches then?

Or Just feuding family?

The bishop of Rome, as the successor of Peter, is the rock on which the Church is built. Those who refuse communion with Peter separate themselves from the Church that Christ founded. Now I, for one, think we should make it as easy as we possibly can for those Christians separated from Peter to re-establish communion if that is their desire. But we shouldn’t indulge in the flattery of suggesting that they are part of the Church when they openly choose not to be.

 

[Triciacat]

Dear sister Triciacat,

I am not at this point supporting either position, but you should be aware of how the other side may look at the situation.

(I’m always aware of the Catholic interpretation. I’m merely POSTING the Orthodox one! )

 

[Ghosty]

The following passage shows that St. Epiphanius did allow Christians to remarry after divorce:
“He who cannot keep continence after the death of his first wife, or who has separated from his wife for a valid motive, as fornication, adultery, or another misdeed, if he takes another wife, or if the wife takes another husband, the divine word does not condemn him nor exclude him from the Church or the life; but she tolerates it rather on account of his weakness. Not that this man can keep two wives in his home, the first one still hanging around him. But if he is actually separated from his first wife, he may take another according to the law, if this be his desire.(Panarion, heresy 59, PG 41:1025).
Also see the following references for this:
Divorce and remarriage: religious and psychological perspectives
By William P. Roberts p. 20
books.google.com/books?id=0GEcSJNUiOMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Divorce+and+remarriage+Roberts&hl=en&ei=LaL4TP34IoGC8gaM7szrCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

That’s just the same quote you posted before, the one that I said seems odd in that it contradicts what he says elsewhere in the Panarion. Regardless, I have no problem with divorce and remarriage after adultery (“some other misdeed” is too vague); I said earlier that the prohibition on remarriage after adultery is an ecclesial, not Divine, prohibition. What’s more, Epiphanius seems to be the minority in this opinion; if you check out the other thread you’ll see that even St. Basil didn’t support such a practice.

Peace and God bless!

 

[sidbrown]

That’s just the same quote you posted before, the one that I said seems odd in that it contradicts what he says elsewhere in the Panarion. Regardless, I have no problem with divorce and remarriage after adultery (“some other misdeed” is too vague); I said earlier that the prohibition on remarriage after adultery is an ecclesial, not Divine, prohibition. What’s more, Epiphanius seems to be the minority in this opinion; if you check out the other thread you’ll see that even St. Basil didn’t support such a practice.

Peace and God bless!

Several sources have quoted St. Epiphanius on this. Further, St. Asterius, Bishop of Amasea, in his fifth homily on Matthew xix, writes: “I praise the husband who flys from the designing wife, who cuts asunder the bond by which he is bound to the asp or the viper. Also, Theodoret, Bishop of Antioch, admitted divorce for adultery.
And, according to His Holiness Alexius, who was patriarch of Constantinople in the beginning of the eleventh century: “No clergyman is to be condemned for giving the benediction at the marriage of a divorced woman, when the man’s conduct was the cause of the divorce.”
According to the Council of Rome, 826 AD, under Pope Eugenius II: Nulli liceat excepta causa fornicationis adhibitam uxorem relinquere, et deinde aliam copulare….
In other words, does this not say that there is an exception made for the case of fornication?

 

[Ghosty]

Several sources have quoted St. Epiphanius on this. Further, St. Asterius, Bishop of Amasea, in his fifth homily on Matthew xix, writes: “I praise the husband who flys from the designing wife, who cuts asunder the bond by which he is bound to the asp or the viper. Also, Theodoret, Bishop of Antioch, admitted divorce for adultery.
And, according to His Holiness Alexius, who was patriarch of Constantinople in the beginning of the eleventh century: “No clergyman is to be condemned for giving the benediction at the marriage of a divorced woman, when the man’s conduct was the cause of the divorce.”
According to the Council of Rome, 826 AD, under Pope Eugenius II: Nulli liceat excepta causa fornicationis adhibitam uxorem relinquere, et deinde aliam copulare….
In other words, does this not say that there is an exception made for the case of fornication?

Did you read my post?

 

[sidbrown]

Did you read my post?

The source I quoted disagrees with you on St. Basil, at least in the case of the man. It is true though, that he did not allow the remarriage of the woman.