Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

  • Thread starter Thread starter sidbrown
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think there’s a HUGE difference in the reason for marriage in each of the churches. Orthodoxy ascribes a WIDER meaning to the term adultery, which ALSO includes the Catholic one (sexual unfaithfulness to one’s spouse) but also adultery of thought (which most people commit about every six minutes, in my opinion… :)) and it also considers it to be any ungodly loyalty that draws people away from the word of God. Economia can, when used with proper discretion, actually bring people CLOSER to God, since, when it is applied to marriage doctrine, there must be confession, repentance, and, ultimately, the person may be saved from the loss of eternal life. I, personally, don’t believe God wants us to reconcile with Satan, and we are instructed to flee from evil. Forgiveness is a completely different story.
The Catholic Church views adultery as being broader than physical unfaithfulness as well. What makes you think it doesn’t? The fact remains that the term used in Scripture refers directly to sexual infidelity, and that’s how the Fathers understood it.

Repentence means walking away from sin, not embracing it. If a couple continue to live in adultery (as Christ calls it), how are they repenting in any way? How is the Church helping by blessing an adulterous relationship?

Peace and God bless!
 
I know what you mean Joseph. I too find the Orthodox way more balanced. But I am talking to a Catholic who has been taught in a way that only he or she has been brought up and since they the Catholics know of no other way I have respect for their approach. Hopefully through much dialogue and contact they will in time see the Eastern approach and understand where we are coming from. But for now I wish to engage in dialogue and contacts so as to better understand them so they can come to better understand the East. I agree with you Joseph that annulments do seemingly put the Church off the hook for responsibility and we the Orthodox tend to engage more in that responsibility. I do support my Church and have come to appreciate it more yet I must try to understand my Catholic brethren and when able try to see where they are coming from. I find the 2 Churches are better in understanding each other than let us say 100 years ago. It will take time and time is on our side. Someday when the 2 Churches will be fully engage in Communion it is my hope that it will be the Eastern Churches teachings and doctrines that will lead the way. Someday I will like to see our teachings and doctrines more acceptable in the West and to make the Catechism of the Catholic Church more complete. We do have a great treasury within our Orthodox Church and it is my dear hope that Catholics will realised how much important it can be for them.
 
I think it is well time to split this thread for those who are more interested in the original topic.

The OP topic has not changed, but the theme has changed to marriage, annulments and remariage.

Please Moderators.
 
The Catholic Church views adultery as being broader than physical unfaithfulness as well. What makes you think it doesn’t??
Yes, it includes adultery of thought, but I’m not aware of it extending to other ungodly loyalties, though…? Does it include all the other sins as listed in the Catholic Catechism (2351 etc.)?
Repentence means walking away from sin, not embracing it. If a couple continue to live in adultery (as Christ calls it), how are they repenting in any way? How is the Church helping by blessing an adulterous relationship?
Essentially, I don’t think they would be repentent, but I think I’m missing your point here…? I’m not sure how the church blesses an adulterous relationship. In reality, we are weak sin repeatedly, even though we have gone to confession and repented.
 
But I think some Orthodox, as you say, don’t want any part of a reunion and they need to do some soul-searching. If it’s the Holy Spirit’s will, our individual pride is moot!
I agree, G. I’ve often said that our churches will be united, even if it is in eternity. Perhaps some Orthodox are more fearful of the conditions of a reunion, than reunion itself. One question of mine has still gone unanswered, even though I have asked it several times on this forum. Orthodox Christians pray for unity every time the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is celebrated (ie. every Sunday) but no one has been able to answer if Catholics are praying for the same thing in their Sunday mass. 🤷
 
Agreed. I think ecumenism isn’t truly happening because all parties aren’t serious, not just one party. When the Pope offered the ordinariates to Anglicans, my rector and bishop laughed about it and they made jokes and never for one solitary second considered, I mean not for one nanosecond, the idea of at least being somewhat open to the notion even remotely. It was laughed off…thanks but no thanks! I felt sad about that and I was disappointed that the “that they all may be one” admonition is so easily ignored!

I hunger for unity and wish we could all have Christian on our “religion” by our screennames. No Catholic, no Orthodox, no Anglican, no Lutheran, just all part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that existed right off the bat. I’m sick of monickers and tribalism! Would that we could all be one! 😦
I agree, G. I’ve often said that our churches will be united, even if it is in eternity. Perhaps some Orthodox are more fearful of the conditions of a reunion, than reunion itself. One question of mine has still gone unanswered, even though I have asked it several times on this forum. Orthodox Christians pray for unity every time the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is celebrated (ie. every Sunday) but no one has been able to answer if Catholics are praying for the same thing in their Sunday mass. 🤷
 
The Catholic Church views adultery as being broader than physical unfaithfulness as well. What makes you think it doesn’t? The fact remains that the term used in Scripture refers directly to sexual infidelity, and that’s how the Fathers understood it.

Repentence means walking away from sin, not embracing it. If a couple continue to live in adultery (as Christ calls it), how are they repenting in any way? How is the Church helping by blessing an adulterous relationship?

Peace and God bless!
Well with this way of thinking. The solution is You could go and murder you X partner. Then go to Confession. Now you are free to marry and not be committing Adultery.
 
Well with this way of thinking. The solution is You could go and murder you X partner. Then go to Confession. Now you are free to marry and not be committing Adultery.
Would that be before or after life imprisonment?😃 And I seriously doubt even the most liberal Orthodox priest would grant a second marriage to such a person under oikonimia. The ancient canons forbid a second marriage to one who murders his wife to marry another. But you were just kidding, I’m sure.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Would that be before or after life imprisonment?😃 And I seriously doubt even the most liberal Orthodox priest would grant a second marriage to such a person under oikonimia. The ancient canons forbid a second marriage to one who murders his wife to marry another. But you were just kidding, I’m sure.

Blessings,
Marduk
You would hope so anyway, then again you see the mochary of Christianity some clergy made around the time of, and especially just after Vatican II. Thank God our current pontiff is working as hard (if not harder) as his predecessor to correct this. Building of course, on what was already done.
 
I never voted on this poll. But here are my opinions:
  1. Orthodox Churches interested in union with the Catholic Church must accept all essential Catholic teaching and beliefs, such as papal infallibility, universal papal supremacy, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Mary, and Purgatory.
I would vote for this, as I understand that these dogmas are fully amenable to Eastern and Oriental theology. I would point out that as an Oriental, I don’t understand “supremacy” to mean “highest, only, and absolute”; I understand it to mean only “highest.”
  1. Orthodox Churches are fully accepted under no pre-conditions and they can continue just as they are now and Catholics and Orthodox can just declare that they are in full Communion with each other without making any changes.
This is a possibility, but I think it goes without saying that they would have to let go of all their misconceptions of the Latin, Oriental, and ACOE Traditions.
  1. The Catholic Church must accept all of the essential Orthodox teachings as they are and conform its belief to that of the Orthodox Churches.
As I understand it, the Catholic Church already accepts the orthodoxy and catholicity of the essential Orthodox teachings. Otherwise, there would not be any Eastern or Oriental Catholics.
  1. The Catholics and the Orthodox will meet halfway. Each one gives in a little bit to the other and the union is obtained by the compromise of meeting halfway.
This is most disagreeable. Unity can only be based on the spiritual fruit of understanding, not compromise.
  1. There should not be a union between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches because they are two different Churches.
:takethat:

Blessings
 
Since the topic has been changed beyond recognition I have lost interest, and so I bid you all God bless and God speed.
 
I never voted on this poll. But here are my opinions:

I would vote for this, as I understand that these dogmas are fully amenable to Eastern and Oriental theology. I would point out that as an Oriental, I don’t understand “supremacy” to mean “highest, only, and absolute”; I understand it to mean only “highest.”
The problem that I see with #1, is that as far as I know, most Orthodox would not go for it. Perhaps #2 would be more acceptable.
 
I lean toward “The Catholic Church must accept all of the essential Orthodox teachings.”

However…this is perhaps not exactly a fully correct way of putting it…

To my knowledge…

All the essential Orthodox teachings of the present are all the essential Catholic teachings of the past…

The elephant in the living room no one here mentions is this:

LITURGY LITURGY LITURGY

Until Catholics and Orthodox are on the same page here…NOTHING can happen.
No union will have ANY HOPE at all without this being the same viewpoint.
This is very far off from happening anytime soon…give yourself at least a few decades, if ever.

the (papal) modern western and ancient (orthodox) eastern views of what it is are fundamentally different in the present time :

If traditionalists (and Orthodox) today are at variance with the Holy See, it is because they are convinced that the modern Popes have done exactly what the Jansenists wanted Pope Pius VI to do on the eve of the French Revolution. But the dilemma of traditionalists is that there is absolutely no appeal against Papal legislation on liturgical matters, as far as the modern Vatican is concerned.37 Indeed Mediator Dei, so often cited by traditionalists, makes it clear that the Pope “alone has the right to permit or establish any liturgical practice, to introduce or approve new rites, or to make any changes in them he considers necessary”.38 The tragedy is that in making this forceful statement with the evident intention of safeguarding our liturgical inheritance, Pius XII set before the Church a Pandora’s box which his successors were tempted to open, and did. Gone forever are the days when one could serenely subscribe to this teaching in the knowledge that the Roman Popes, whatever their failings, always uphold and protect liturgical tradition from the wanton vandalism of would-be reformers. Whereas the traditional rites of the Church had been constructed by apostles and saints, Roman-rite (and Ambrosian-rite) Catholics have today a Mass which is the work of theorists and committees of ‘experts’.

This rigorously conservative attitude on the question of ritual reform is also the constant teaching of the Eastern Churches. The Russian Orthodox theologian George Florovsky makes the same point rather more bluntly when he says that “Christianity is a liturgical religion. The Church is first of all a worshipping community. Worship comes first, doctrine and discipline second”.44 It is the Christians of the East, Uniates and dissidents alike, who have best preserved the classical Catholic approach to worship and who consequently have preserved their litugical traditions intact in modern times. The present liturgical chaos in the Western Church is due in no small part to the emphasis that Latin Christians have always placed on dogma, with the consequent tendency to regard the liturgical texts as a mere locus theologicus, a means to an end, rather than a living source of doctrinal truth. Thus orthodoxia, which originally meant ‘right worship’, gives way to orthopistis ‘right believing’, or orthodidascalia ‘right teaching’.45 When taken to the extreme, this exclusive emphasis on the rational culminates in that heresy which rejects the living components of tradition in favour of the written records of the Early Church, the Bible and Patristic writings, and which we know as Protestantism and full-blown Jansenism. The rejection of the liturgical tradition thus implies a rejection of the Church itself.

In the light of this typically Western aberration one can understand the Orthodox jibe that Protestantism was hatched from the egg that Rome had laid. For according to Timothy Ware,
Code:
"**The Orthodox approach to religion is fundamentally a liturgical approach,** which understands doctrine in the context of divine worship: it is no coincidence that the word ‘Orthodoxy’ should signify alike right belief and right worship, for the two things are inseparable. It has truly been; said of the Byzantines: ‘Dogma with them is not only an intellectual system. Apprehended by the clergy and expounded to the laity, but a field of vision **wherein all things on earth are seen** in their relation to things in heaven, **first and foremost through liturgical celebration**’"46
A similar outlook is by no means absent in the Latin West today, even if it is a minority view. Commenting on Pius XII’s reversal of Prosper of Aquitaine’s dictum, American Benedictine liturgist Dom Aidan Kavanagh notes that:
Code:
"To reverse the maxim, subordinating the standard of worship to the standard of belief, makes a shambles of the dialectic of revelation. **It was a Presence, not faith, which drew Moses to the burning bush, and what happened there was a revelation, not a seminar**. **It was a Presence, not faith, which drew the disciples to Jesus, and what happened there was not an educational program but His revelation to them of Himself** as the long-promised Anointed One, the redeeming because reconciling Messiah-Christos".41
Indeed the radical impulse to destroy the entire liturgical tradition and go back to Eucharists in the manner of the Last Supper is the inevitable consequence of applying the criteria of theological analysis to the sacred liturgy which, as a slowly growing humanly-ordered thing, cannot possibly have “come from the Lord complete and perfect” as Bossuet the elder said of the deposit of faith.
 
Unfortunately, there is ample evidence today that the modern Popes consider themselves the infallible arbiters of disciplinary and liturgical tradition rather than its respectful custodians. John Paul II, for example, has been known to act arbitrarily and inconsistently in contravention of established liturgical law. One famous episode was during his visit to West Germany in 1980 when, in contradiction to the firm Papal policy of not giving Communion in the hand, he administered the Sacrament in this manner to a small boy by way of exception, thus establishing an irrevocable precedent. On another occasion, I am told, the Pope incorrectly knelt during a Papal ceremony in Rome, and when his Master of Ceremonies discreetly directed him to rise, John Paul remained on his knees and retorted pointedly: “II Papa s’inginocchia!” – “the Pope is kneeling!”. With such a subjective attitude towards liturgical tradition, unthinkable in any of the Eastern Churches, it is understandable that the modern Popes and the ultramontanist Curia should view traditionalist rejection of the liturgical reform as incompatible with Catholic orthodoxy which they narrowly understand as right belief and right morals.

From the traditionalist (Orthodox) standpoint, it is an abuse of power for the modern Papacy; however orthodox in its dogmatic teaching, to Command the faithful to accept an anti-traditional liturgy in the name of obedience to the supreme ecclesiastical authority. If the Papacy, in an official document, can reverse a fundamental teaching of orthodox Christianity by totally subordinating the liturgy to the interests of new ‘orientations’, one is forced to conclude that recent Popes, in turning their backs on their own past for whatever noble motives, have placed themselves above Tradition and abused their position as the supreme legislators in disciplinary matters.
For a Catholic to make such an admission is painful, and from the ultramontanist point of view disloyal, not to say actively schismatical.

There is unlikely to be agreement on this question until the Holy Father comes to a deeper understanding of his own action in re-legalizing the traditional Roman liturgy, which logically considered, entirely contradicts his thinking on the post-conciliar reform, which is substantially that of Paul VI and of the episcopal conferences. Yet this contradiction which has created a dynamic tension in the Church must ultimately be resolved, and we may optimistically regard it as a sign of hope for the eventual restoration of the patrimony of which Latin Catholics have been unjustly deprived. In the meantime, as Archbishop Lefebvre remarked shortly after his audience with Pope John Paul II in 1978: "We can at least pray to the Blessed Virgin that when he becomes aware of the enormous difficulties he will meet in the exercise of his power as Pope, he will reconsider his stance and perhaps conclude that he must return to Tradition (and Orthodoxy) ».
 
YES, there needs to be a reunification council. We all need to pray for it to happen.
Amen
I have a quick question for our Orthodox brother and sisters posting on this board: What kind of conditions do you believe need to be met in order to restore the unity between the East and the West, taking into account that the Catholics will not change their view about the papacy and the Orthodox won’t change their view on it either? I’ve heard plenty of Catholics comment on this, saying what they think should happen, but what do you think? Sorry if this is off topic.
Silyosha
In due time the Lord the Holy Spirit will gather the Church from the utter most parts of the earth, this gathering of the Holy Church of GOD won’t happen in one move or one decision and right now we started to see the beginning of it. here is some just for an example:
cnewa.us/default.aspx?ID=3341&pagetypeID=4&sitecode=US&pageno=1

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28841101@N08/3348746799/in/set-72157615079348931/



http://orthodoxmissions.wordpress.com/2011/02/26/latin-america-peoples-in-search-of-orthodoxy/


pravoslavie.ru/english/42683.htm
 
I never voted on this poll. But here are my opinions:

I would vote for this, as I understand that these dogmas are fully amenable to Eastern and Oriental theology. I would point out that as an Oriental, I don’t understand “supremacy” to mean “highest, only, and absolute”; I understand it to mean only “highest.”

This is a possibility, but I think it goes without saying that they would have to let go of all their misconceptions of the Latin, Oriental, and ACOE Traditions.

As I understand it, the Catholic Church already accepts the orthodoxy and catholicity of the essential Orthodox teachings. Otherwise, there would not be any Eastern or Oriental Catholics.

This is most disagreeable. Unity can only be based on the spiritual fruit of understanding, not compromise.

:takethat:

Blessings
IOW, the Orthodox must become EC. say it, why beating around the bush.
 
The problem that I see with #1, is that as far as I know, most Orthodox would not go for it. Perhaps #2 would be more acceptable.
Here let me make it simple and clear, we will not submit to anyone, as the Head of the Holy CHURCH of GOD accept the LORD Himself “ALONE” and as long as the Bishop of Rome is claiming himself to be the Head of the Church of GOD and that he is Infallibile and that he is the rep. of GOD on earth as dogma, there will be no reconciliation, the zoghby intiative would be a good place to start, GOD bless.
 
Here let me make it simple and clear, we will not submit to anyone, as the Head of the Holy CHURCH of GOD accept the LORD Himself “ALONE” and as long as the Bishop of Rome is claiming himself to be the Head of the Church of GOD and that he is Infallibile and that he is the rep. of GOD on earth as dogma, there will be no reconciliation, the zoghby intiative would be a good place to start, GOD bless.
Yep, that’s pretty simple and clear, except you might want to educate yourself just a bit on Catholic doctrine regarding these issues in order to better articulate your objections.
 
Can’t vote, I dont think any of these apply.
I dont remember where I read it or how I learned it, but I was taught that Catholics are in full communion with the Orthodox Church. That in one of John Paul II’s encyclicals, he stated that Orthodox priests are taught and practice the same as Eastern Rite Catholic priests and the Catholic church accepts Orthodox sacraments as valid. I distinctly remember his words: Orthodox are our brothers in Christ. – then it was added, though valid we should not “seek them out”.
However, the Orthodox do not feel the same way about Catholics. I can attend an Orthodox Liturgy but I cannot receive their Communion because their bishop does not permit them to give communion to non-orthodox.
As an Eastern Rite Catholic who lives 3 blocks from an Orthodox church, I had hoped to attend daily mass & receive the Eucharist, but the priest said it was not permitted.
My point here is that we are in union with Orthodox, but they are not in union with us. They do have some valid reasons for it (the Creed differences) and what I think are not so valid (the Pope’s authority) but I am not so wise as to determine on my own who is right. Since I am Catholic I follow the Catholic Church’s teachings and leave such decisions to those who God put in place to make such decisions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top