Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

  • Thread starter Thread starter sidbrown
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Michael already said it. Our unity is maintained through and in the shared Apostolic Faith. The Roman Church has it backwards because it attempts to establish unity based on submission to the pope because of the Apostolic origins of the see.

For not from his [the pope’s] Apostolic Confession does he glorify his Throne, but from his Apostolic Throne seeks to establish his dignity, and from his dignity, his Confession. The truth is the other way. - 1848 Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs
We are united because the bishops of the world hold each other accountable to maintain fidelity to the Faith that has been handed to them. The formula for unity with the Roman Catholic Church is for the pope and bishops in union with him to confess the same faith we confess, the same faith that we once held in common.
I thought you were talking about something else. Or maybe you aren’t. Is it your position that Catholic-Orthodox Unity will come about when the Catholic bishops are in sufficient agreement with the Orthodox bishops? If so, wouldn’t that really amount to conversion to Orthodoxy on the part of the Catholic bishops, including the Pope? Would this require renunciation of the doctrine of papal infallibility, for example? Finally, if the answer to these questions are yes, then what is the point of the unity talks that take place between the two Churches? Why don’t the Orthodox simply tell us to convert to Orthodoxy, and leave it at that?
 
AMEN AMEN AMEN!! Maybe someday the pope will “get it”…I’m still holding out hope! 😃
As an Orthodox Christian in communion with Rome, as you self-identify, what do you see that the Pope is not getting when it comes to these issues? The post you were responding to seemed to be saying that it is the Pope that should conform to the rest of the bishops. Do you not believe in papal infallibility as expressed by Vatican I?
 
Why don’t the Orthodox simply tell us to convert to Orthodoxy, and leave it at that?
Plenty do. It is Rome that sees all kinds of options in these talks (which, if I’m not mistaken, are mostly initiated by Rome).
 
Come to the cathedral, sing the hymns and prayers … listen to the sermon … meet the bishop.
I just told you.

Believe rightly, teach rightly, and share communion with other bishops who do likewise. That has worked for 2000 years.
It is what you consider “rightly” that I’m trying to discern. But I think you gave a fairly clear answer in your other post.
 
I came across this recently, it is composed in the form of a letter (to fellow Orthodox). The author was the well respected Father Seraphim (Rose) and although I did not originally expect to post it on CAF it might be appropriate to explore the Orthodox mindset on a thread such as this which has as it’s stated purpose a discussion of possible unity with the Orthodox and what that might entail …
THE PROPER VIEW OF NON-ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS
I firmly believe that this is indeed what Orthodoxy teaches about our attitude towards non-Orthodox Christians:
  1. Orthodoxy is the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of mankind, and therefore we should guard with our life the purity of its teaching and our own faithfulness to it. In the Orthodox Church alone is grace given through the sacraments (most other churches don’t even claim to have the sacraments in any serious sense). The Orthodox Church alone is the Body of Christ, and if salvation is difficult enough within the Orthodox Church, how much more difficult must it be outside the Church!
  1. However, it is not for us to define the state of those who are outside the Orthodox Church. If God wishes to grant salvation to some who are Christians in the best way they know, but without ever knowing the Orthodox Church – that is up to Him, not us. But when He does this, it is outside the normal way that He established for salvation – which is the Church, as part of the Body of Christ. I myself can accept the experience of Protestants being “born-again” in Christ; I have met people who have changed their lives entirely through meeting Christ, and I cannot deny their experience just because they are not Orthodox. I call these people “subjective” or “beginning” Christians. But until they are united to the Orthodox Church they cannot have the fullness of Christianity, they cannot be objectively Christian as belonging to the Body of Christ and receiving the grace of the sacraments. I think this is why there are so many sects among them- they begin the Christian life with a genuine conversion to Christ, but they cannot continue the Christian life in the right way until they are united to the Orthodox Church, and they therefore substitute their own opinions and subjective experiences for the Church’s teaching and sacraments.
About those Christians who are outside the Orthodox Church, therefore, I would say: they do not yet have the full truth. Perhaps it just hasn’t been revealed to them yet, or perhaps it is our fault for not living and teaching the Orthodox Faith in a way they can understand. With such people we cannot be one in the Faith, but there is no reason why we should regard them as totally estranged or as equal to pagans (although we should not be hostile to pagans either- they also haven’t yet seen the truth!). It is true that many of the non-Orthodox hymns contain a teaching or at least an emphasis that is wrong- especially the idea that when one is “saved” he does not need to do anything more because Christ has done it all. This idea prevents people from seeing the truth of Orthodoxy which emphasizes the idea of struggling for one’s salvation even after Christ has given it to us, as St. Paul says: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” [Philippians 2:12] But almost all of the religious Christmas carols are all right, and they are sung by Orthodox Christians in America (some of them even in the strictest monasteries!).
The word “heretic” is indeed used too frequently nowadays. It has a definitive meaning and function, to distinguish new teachings from Orthodox teaching; but few of the non-Orthodox Christians today are consciously “heretics,” and it really does no good to call them that. Among Western converts to Orthodoxy there is indeed a temptation to speak too freely of “heresy” and “heretics,” and to make the errors of the non-Orthodox an excuse for a certain pharisaic smugness about our own Orthodoxy. Even when it is worded in a theologically correct manner, this attitude is spiritually wrong and helps to drive away from the Orthodox Church many who would otherwise be attracted to it.
In the end, we should view the non-Orthodox as people to whom Orthodoxy has not yet been revealed, as people who are potentially Orthodox (if only we ourselves would give them a better example!). There is no reason why we cannot call them Christians and be on good terms with them, recognizing that at least we have our faith in Christ in common, and live in peace especially with our own families. A harsh, polemical attitude is called for only when the non-Orthodox are trying to take away our flocks or change our teaching.
Father Seraphim
 
Plenty do. It is Rome that sees all kinds of options in these talks (which, if I’m not mistaken, are mostly initiated by Rome).
But the Orthodox bishops keep coming back for talks. What are they hoping to accomplish?
 
I came across this recently, it is composed in the form of a letter (to fellow Orthodox). The author was the well respected Father Seraphim (Rose) and although I did not originally expect to post it on CAF it might be appropriate to explore the Orthodox mindset on a thread such as this which has as it’s stated purpose a discussion of possible unity with the Orthodox and what that might entail …
That’s very interesting. I would be interested in what he had to say specifically about Catholicism. As far as any reunification, however, I suspect he would say that the only way available is conversion to Orthodoxy for all Christians.
 
But the Orthodox bishops keep coming back for talks. What are they hoping to accomplish?
Ya got me. I’m not a bishop. I wouldn’t bother with such talks if I were one. I personally see the path to reunion as clearly as Hesychios has put it: Rome comes back to orthodoxy. That’s the only option, because the opposite will not happen.
 
Ya got me. I’m not a bishop. I wouldn’t bother with such talks if I were one. I personally see the path to reunion as clearly as Hesychios has put it: Rome comes back to orthodoxy. That’s the only option, because the opposite will not happen.
I don’t think the Rome comes back to Orthodoxy scenario is going to take place either. The only way I can think of to make it work would be if we rolled the clock back to 1 second before Cardinal Humbert placed the excommunication papers on the altar, and see where we are. The problem is, Catholics and Orthodox see different things when we look at the first millennium. The matter of Photius is probably the most glaring example of that.

Another possibility would be that all of the apostolic churches simply reunite, without any preconditions. If insufferable disputes emerge, they could be dealt with at ecumenical councils. If we could keep from strangling each other it might work, against all intuition to the contrary. It just seems we should try something. Christ wants us all to be one, and I don’t think just sitting back on triumphalist rhetoric is going to get it when the cosmic curtain drops and we are asked what we did to heal the divisions among ourselves.
 
I don’t think the Rome comes back to Orthodoxy scenario is going to take place either.
I don’t think it is, either.
Another possibility would be that all of the apostolic churches simply reunite, without any preconditions.
:confused:

Wow. That definitely won’t happen, either.
If insufferable disputes emerge, they could be dealt with at ecumenical councils.
If Rome respected ecumenical councils, we wouldn’t be in this situation.
Christ wants us all to be one, and I don’t think just sitting back on triumphalist rhetoric is going to get it when the cosmic curtain drops and we are asked what we did to heal the divisions among ourselves.
I don’t see a lot of triumphalist rhetoric going on. Just a lot of different interpretations of history.
 
Hi all,

I really enjoy reading this thread and all of your wonderful contributions. I personally think that the Eastern Catholic churches represent some form of how reunion should take place. What I mean by that is many of the things which the Latins teach… as towards the filioque, the immaculate conception, assumption – are all based off of the Latin language and the concepts of St. Augustine.

I do not see how St. Augustine could be incorrect in all of his views, for as St. Justin Martyr said we all have the *spermatikos logos *inside of us. We can not be wrong about everything. I feel that the differences too between original sin, and ancestral sin are simply due to cultural context and language barriers. One side says we inherit the guilt of original sin, which is removed from us at baptism. The other side says that we all experiences the consequences of sin, without the guilt. To me, the Latins have equally valid ways of reaching the same conclusions as the Orthodox – they simply go about it quite differently.

What Michael said of the non-Orthodox, which would include Catholics stands quite true. The Orthodox have a very similar way of understanding those outside the Church, as the Catholic Catechism does… although we do not have a theology on those outside of the Church. We have simply reached a similar conclusion… *for we can know where the Church is, but we can not say where the Church is not. *

I’ve met a Catholic before on here, who told me that the Pope will not try to run the governing structure of Orthodox churches should they reunite. He would only assist in a similar manner to other Popes in the past, by preaching ex cathedra on matters of doctrine. This is not to say that, he can’t come to a consensus with the other Patriarchs before making such a pronouncement… as it was said that before the Assumption was proclaimed, Pope Pius met with several bishops about it.

God bless!
 
I hope everyone reads this post!!! Very well said. It’s thinking like this that might just bring the EOC and the CC back together, for which we should all want and pray. 👍
Hi all,

I really enjoy reading this thread and all of your wonderful contributions. I personally think that the Eastern Catholic churches represent some form of how reunion should take place. What I mean by that is many of the things which the Latins teach… as towards the filioque, the immaculate conception, assumption – are all based off of the Latin language and the concepts of St. Augustine.

I do not see how St. Augustine could be incorrect in all of his views, for as St. Justin Martyr said we all have the *spermatikos logos *inside of us. We can not be wrong about everything. I feel that the differences too between original sin, and ancestral sin are simply due to cultural context and language barriers. One side says we inherit the guilt of original sin, which is removed from us at baptism. The other side says that we all experiences the consequences of sin, without the guilt. To me, the Latins have equally valid ways of reaching the same conclusions as the Orthodox – they simply go about it quite differently.

What Michael said of the non-Orthodox, which would include Catholics stands quite true. The Orthodox have a very similar way of understanding those outside the Church, as the Catholic Catechism does… although we do not have a theology on those outside of the Church. We have simply reached a similar conclusion… *for we can know where the Church is, but we can not say where the Church is not. *

I’ve met a Catholic before on here, who told me that the Pope will not try to run the governing structure of Orthodox churches should they reunite. He would only assist in a similar manner to other Popes in the past, by preaching ex cathedra on matters of doctrine. This is not to say that, he can’t come to a consensus with the other Patriarchs before making such a pronouncement… as it was said that before the Assumption was proclaimed, Pope Pius met with several bishops about it.

God bless!
 
I hope everyone reads this post!!! Very well said. It’s thinking like this that might just bring the EOC and the CC back together, for which we should all want and pray. 👍
Pray tell…Why would we Easterners subscribe to the teaching of Augustine? He has nothing to do with us and his teachings especially that of Original sin is quite opposed to the Eastern teaching.

I believe St. Mark of Ephesus is who we should look to when it comes to reunion issues. 😃

Wake up Latins!! Think before you spout off this nonsense! 😃
 
I thought you were talking about something else. Or maybe you aren’t. Is it your position that Catholic-Orthodox Unity will come about when the Catholic bishops are in sufficient agreement with the Orthodox bishops?
Yes.
If so, wouldn’t that really amount to conversion to Orthodoxy on the part of the Catholic bishops, including the Pope?
Of course.
Would this require renunciation of the doctrine of papal infallibility, for example?
Since it is a dogma declared many centuries after the schism then yes, it would need to be renounced. Rome must return to the same Faith we held in common for almost a millennium.
Finally, if the answer to these questions are yes, then what is the point of the unity talks that take place between the two Churches?
To demonstrate brotherly love, to maybe cooperate on issues of mutual interest and to try and achieve unity of faith.
Why don’t the Orthodox simply tell us to convert to Orthodoxy, and leave it at that?
That is the message.
 
Ciero, so I am spouting off nonsense? :rolleyes: Okedoke…

AveChriste, who made those comments with which I agreed, is considering the EOC, not the CC, and I agree with what he said below; he seems very open minded, something you are not, but feel free to spout off anyway; if we all continue to think like you, I guess it will always be the “easterners” vs the westerners:
  • I feel that the differences too between original sin, and ancestral sin are simply due to cultural context and language barriers. One side says we inherit the guilt of original sin, which is removed from us at baptism. The other side says that we all experiences the consequences of sin, without the guilt. To me, the Latins have equally valid ways of reaching the same conclusions as the Orthodox – they simply go about it quite differently.
Pray tell…Why would we Easterners subscribe to the teaching of Augustine? He has nothing to do with us and his teachings especially that of Original sin is quite opposed to the Eastern teaching.

I believe St. Mark of Ephesus is who we should look to when it comes to reunion issues. 😃

Wake up Latins!! Think before you spout off this nonsense! 😃
 
Ciero, so I am spouting off nonsense? :rolleyes: Okedoke…

AveChriste, who made those comments with which I agreed, is considering the EOC, not the CC, and I agree with what he said below; he seems very open minded, something you are not, but feel free to spout off anyway; if we all continue to think like you, I guess it will always be the “easterners” vs the westerners:
  • I feel that the differences too between original sin, and ancestral sin are simply due to cultural context and language barriers. One side says we inherit the guilt of original sin, which is removed from us at baptism. The other side says that we all experiences the consequences of sin, without the guilt. To me, the Latins have equally valid ways of reaching the same conclusions as the Orthodox – they simply go about it quite differently.
As usual its the Latin way or the highway! More nonsense. 🤷
 
Hello Ave,

Hmmm… where to start ? :hmmm:
I personally think that the Eastern Catholic churches represent some form of how reunion should take place.
I at one time had thought the same.

However, this is not a form the early church had taken, it is quite a new thing. The Unia is not a replication of the early church, it is actually a new model, a modification of the highly centralized Latin church (which is also a new thing in it’s extreme centralization).
… What I mean by that is many of the things which the Latins teach… as towards the filioque, the immaculate conception, assumption – are all based off of the Latin language and the concepts of St. Augustine.
True, for starters, and St Augustine is highly respected in Orthodox circles too. But St Augustine was a good man and a seminal thinker who was open to correction. His presence as an author and bishop was not a problem in his lifetime.

It is a complex of thinking that involves a string of individuals (many probably unknown and nameless to us today), that stretches from Augustine through the Council of Orange and saint Anselm (among many others) that mark out a line of thought which departs by degree from the Orthodoxy of the early church.
I do not see how St. Augustine could be incorrect in all of his views, for as St. Justin Martyr said we all have the *spermatikos logos *inside of us. We can not be wrong about everything.
The same can be said of many others as well 😉

Augustine believed in double-Predestination, and the Catholic church never adopted it. But John Calvin read him and taught it.

Saint Augustine was not a Pope, nor a prophet, and he was not infallible. But he was a popular Latin author and he had a lot of influence in western thought, which led to other ideas over time which tend to keep us from understanding each other today.
I feel that the differences too between original sin, and ancestral sin are simply due to cultural context and language barriers.
I feel a bit differently.

Cultural context and language barriers can interfere with us understanding one another and communicating with one another, which can make it difficult for new ideas to spread. Which is probably why Saint Augustine’s new idea of the damnation of infants did not spread easily into the east. It was still a new opinion, a new explanation for an already ancient practice of baptism by immersion.
I’ve met a Catholic before on here, who told me that the Pope will not try to run the governing structure of Orthodox churches should they reunite. He would only assist in a similar manner to other Popes in the past, by preaching ex cathedra on matters of doctrine. This is not to say that, he can’t come to a consensus with the other Patriarchs before making such a pronouncement… as it was said that before the Assumption was proclaimed, Pope Pius met with several bishops about it.
Teaching authority and administration are two separate issues.

I think that the Latin concept of administration from the top is a bit flawed, but the bishop of Rome would genuinely have administrative authority over most, if not all, of Italy. That was the extent of the Metropolitanate of Rome.

Beyond that, there are other Metropolitan Sees and synods.

The Roman Catholic church has been operating under the theory that all offices in the church are delegated from the Pope. This seems to apply even to Patriarchates, which are allowed to run themselves but do not have the inalienable right to do so.

Thus we have an office which has attempted to control the entire church from at least the time of the Gregorian Reform, claims the exclusive right to call councils and approve them, and now claims the right to unilaterally declare definitions of dogma without bothering to even put the matter before a council. This is an entirely new concept, developed over time and not really attributable to someone like St Augustine.

In the past, only heretics have ever ventured to declare dogma unilaterally.

Pax et Bona,
 
As usual its the Latin way or the highway! More nonsense. 🤷
Hi Ciero,

I did not mean to imply that at all! We have a beautiful liturgy, a beautiful abundance of saints, and a wonderful “theological patrimony”. To be in reunion with Rome, does not mean we have to be Roman – we’ve been around for centuries, some of us longer than Rome herself. Why in the world would we all want to become Romans?

As far as the Pope goes, the Patriarchs do a perfectly fine job governing and teaching us. There’s no reason the Patriarch of the West, should have any jurisdiction over someone who belongs to an EO church.
 
Hi Ciero,

I did not mean to imply that at all! We have a beautiful liturgy, a beautiful abundance of saints, and a wonderful “theological patrimony”. To be in reunion with Rome, does not mean we have to be Roman – we’ve been around for centuries, some of us longer than Rome herself. Why in the world would we all want to become Romans?

As far as the Pope goes, the Patriarchs do a perfectly fine job governing and teaching us. There’s no reason the Patriarch of the West, should have any jurisdiction over someone who belongs to an EO church.
No but you are saying the East should ascribe to the Augustinian view of original sin…something this Easterner isn’t willing to do. 🙂
 
I suppose you could say it was in one sense the Pope’s fault, since it is his job to keep the Church together. But if others won’t cooperate, I don’t know what he can do. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

I don’t think the Pope made the decision to elevate himself from primacy to supremacy in 1054. I don’t think a decision in that form was ever made. Suffice it to say that the Church has never claimed for the Pope any more than Christ gave him. There may have been times when the Popes could have had better manners, but that’s not a good reason for a thousand year schism. (I leave off a discussion of the Sack of Constantinople, since you don’t mention it.)

The Church didn’t bring in new teachings in the sense of making things up out of whole cloth. Everything the Church has said down through history has been a natural development based on what went before, guided by the Holy Spirit. I assure you, no doctrines have been enunciated with an eye to strengthening the split. Why would the Catholics do that? We’re the ones that keep asking the Orthodox if they want to reunite, while the Patriarch of Moscow won’t even allow the Pope in Russia.

I don’t think even Charlemagne tried to impose the Filioque on the East. Prove positive that the Church doesn’t think it is essential is that the Eastern Catholics aren’t required to say it. But there sure are a lot of Orthodox Christians who say I’m a heretic for believing it.
Well i can Assure you this was the First Main reason for the split in 1054 AD :: Primacy to supremacy. The Filioque was the second main reason at the time. The Eastern church will have nothing forced onto them.
Everything has to done in a spirit of a unified Agreement. Since the split the patriarch of Constantinople had to take the position as Primary patriarch. All the other patriarchs have have functioned fine for over a thousand years with this since the split.🤷
Primacy=Unity. Supremacy=disunity
Look at all those different protestant Groups. Each one is under the Influence of a supreme Mini Pope
Mini Pope Luther. Mini Pope Calvin. Mini Pope Arius etc

All the new teachings after the split have strengthened the disunity. Assumption of Mary. Purgatory etc. The Eastern Patriarchs do not Agree with these new teachings.

There comes to up to a Point when you Agree with the Pope of Rome:shrug: I am Quite sure if Primary Patriarch Bartholomew started coming out with new Teachings that the rest of the Eastern patriarchs disagreed with. He would have to forget those Ideas.

Just a Example. If the Presant Pope Happend to Come out declairing that he was a Homosexual. Then says it is not a Sin no more being a homosexual. would you have to Agree with him because he is Pope.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top