Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

[shaky]

Sure there was. That’s why he was talking about it.

I’ll bet he wouldn’t have a lot of good to say about Michael Cerularius either. The Church became a lot different after it became legal and, later, the state religion.

Well Prove to me that the Pope and the Church of Rome had ‘‘Supremacy’’ when it was Established in the very beginning.

The only Evidence i have seen so far was that the Pope and the church of Rome only had ‘‘Primacy’’

 

[shaky]

Let’s stipulate that I’m not only closed-minded, but that I’m a secret Marxist, I wear my underwear on my head in public, and my breath is atrocious. These things don’t make you right and me wrong.

Anyway, I’m sorry, I thought your question was rhetorical. I assume that you meant that the Pope used to enjoy a kind of primacy of honor, a ceremonial primacy where he was a first among equals, and that was subsequently changed into a supremacy where he got to push other people around. I don’t think it happened that way.

Now, do you know the difference between agree and disagree?

Being closed minded does not bring a person to a logical conclusion of the Truth. Have you tried debating with a brain washed closed minded Jehovah witness.
They are Taught to keep there minds that closed and if any of there members are found to even look at Information outside the watchtower society they are disfellowshipped

Well it did happen that way because this is what caused the split:shrug:

Yes i do Know the difference between agree and disagree

I Agree with what is Proven to be the Truth. I disagree with what is not proven to be the Truth.

 

[ciero]

Being closed minded does not bring a person to a logical conclusion of the Truth. Have you tried debating with a brain washed closed minded Jehovah witness.
They are Taught to keep there minds that closed and if any of there members are found to even look at Information outside the watchtower society they are disfellowshipped

Well it did happen that way because this is what caused the split:shrug:

Yes i do Know the difference between agree and disagree

I Agree with what is Proven to be the Truth. I disagree with what is not proven to be the Truth.

So tell us Shaky…what caused the “split” and how did it happen?

I just love it when you new converts have all the answers!

 

[JackQ]

I don’t think it is, either.



Wow. That definitely won’t happen, either.

If Rome respected ecumenical councils, we wouldn’t be in this situation.

I don’t see a lot of triumphalist rhetoric going on. Just a lot of different interpretations of history.

If the Orthodox Churches respected the Petrine ministry, we wouldn’t be in this situation.

Now take a look at that comment. Was that at all helpful? Did it move you any closer to the Catholic position?

By triumphalist rhetoric, I mean the kind of talk that implies that right is all on one side, wrong is entirely on the other. The reasons for the split between our two Churches are complex, multi-faceted, and largely political. Moreover, it took place when bishoprics were often a benefit conferred by civil rulers. The Holy Spirit was still with the Church, of course, but “let the greatest among you be your servant” had long given way to power assertions. We will only heal this schism when the words of Christ predominate the discussions.

 

[joe370]

As usual its the Latin way or the highway! More nonsense.

Is that what I said? So tell me: What must be done for unity to finally be achieved for the EOC and the CC? Please be specific, and I promise I won’t call it nonsense. I will respect your opinion even if I don’t agree with it. Telling people (as you have done) - to think before they spout off their nonsense seems rather sophomoric…

 

[Hesychios]

If the Orthodox Churches respected the Petrine ministry, we wouldn’t be in this situation.
.

The Orthodox church does respect the Petrine miniswtry. It is respected in the person of every bishop.

It is the Papacy that has often in the past lacked the respect for this in brother bishops.

 

[ciero]

Is that what I said? So tell me: What must be done for unity to finally be achieved for the EOC and the CC? Please be specific, and I promise I won’t call it nonsense. I will respect your opinion even if I don’t agree with it. Telling people (as you have done) - to think before they spout off their nonsense seems rather sophomoric…

Do you really think that what is needed for Catholic/Orthodox unity can be figured out by a bunch of armchair apologists like us?

And if you read my post…what I called nonsense was that Easterners should have to ascribe to the Augustinian view of original sin. I think it is nonsense for anyone to think that the other side must change to my way of thinking for things to be worked out…there musty be true dialog…dialog in love …and a real desire for real unity…NOT I win because you now have to see things as I see them.

 

[joe370]

Well said Jack! Those are the kind of words that can heal and that is what Jesus’ divided church needs - or - the east and west can simply continue to remain divided, with no hope in sight, which, no doubt, really breaks Jesus’ heart…

If the Orthodox Churches respected the Petrine ministry, we wouldn’t be in this situation.

Now take a look at that comment. Was that at all helpful? Did it move you any closer to the Catholic position?

By triumphalist rhetoric, I mean the kind of talk that implies that right is all on one side, wrong is entirely on the other. The reasons for the split between our two Churches are complex, multi-faceted, and largely political. Moreover, it took place when bishoprics were often a benefit conferred by civil rulers. The Holy Spirit was still with the Church, of course, but “let the greatest among you be your servant” had long given way to power assertions. We will only heal this schism when the words of Christ predominate the discussions.

 

[JackQ]

Pray tell…Why would we Easterners subscribe to the teaching of Augustine? He has nothing to do with us and his teachings especially that of Original sin is quite opposed to the Eastern teaching.

I believe St. Mark of Ephesus is who we should look to when it comes to reunion issues.

Wake up Latins!! Think before you spout off this nonsense!

Augustine was a bishop before the schism. He was a part of your Church too. Actually, it’s interesting I put it that way, since you self-identify as Orthodox in communion with Rome. In any event, it seems like mere parochialism to completely reject what someone has to say simply because they’re “western.” What we should derive from the unity of Eastern and Western Catholics is mutual enrichment, not grounds for divisiveness.

 

[joe370]

Do you really think that what is needed for Catholic/Orthodox unity can be figured out by a bunch of armchair apologists like us?

And if you read my post…what I called nonsense was that Easterners should have to ascribe to the Augustinian view of original sin. I think it is nonsense for anyone to think that the other side must change to my way of thinking for things to be worked out…there musty be true dialog…dialog in love …and a real desire for real unity…NOT I win because you now have to see things as I see them.

Well said! And you are right: nothing you and I say, as a couple of armchair apologists, will make a difference. I suppose that that true dialog…dialog in love …and real desire for real unity…is gonna have to take place between the EOC and the CC leadership. I guess all we can do is pray…

 

[joe370]

Augustine was a bishop before the schism. He was a part of your Church too. Actually, it’s interesting I put it that way, since you self-identify as Orthodox in communion with Rome. In any event, it seems like mere parochialism to completely reject what someone has to say simply because they’re “western.” What we should derive from the unity of Eastern and Western Catholics is mutual enrichment, not grounds for divisiveness.

 

[Formosus]

Augustine was a bishop before the schism. He was a part of your Church too. Actually, it’s interesting I put it that way, since you self-identify as Orthodox in communion with Rome. In any event, it seems like mere parochialism to completely reject what someone has to say simply because they’re “western.” What we should derive from the unity of Eastern and Western Catholics is mutual enrichment, not grounds for divisiveness.

He’s not rejecting Augustine because he is western, he is rejecting his teaching on original sin because we already had our own Greek view of original sin by the time Augustine started teaching. Simply put Augustine was hardly read in the Greek churches until the 13th century when he was translated into Greek.

 

[JackQ]

Yes.

Of course.

Since it is a dogma declared many centuries after the schism then yes, it would need to be renounced. Rome must return to the same Faith we held in common for almost a millennium.

To demonstrate brotherly love, to maybe cooperate on issues of mutual interest and to try and achieve unity of faith.

That is the message.

I don’t think we’re getting that message from the Orthodox bishops that meet with ours. Wouldn’t that be interesting if all along we thought we were engaged in reunification talks, and the Orthodox were simply telling us to become Orthodox? Talk about miscommunication!

You understand that we Catholics see things differently. We actually think that our doctrines are correct. Of course, we think you’re closer to us than you think we are to you, but experience tells me that’s a dead end discussion. In the last analysis, all we Catholics can really do is tell you about our faith and pray for you. We can’t make you believe it, certainly not with argumentation and rhetorical arts. It is the Holy Spirit who must prevail in these discussions, and I pray that the Holy Spirit will help us all to see the truth as he would have us to understand it.

 

[ciero]

Well said! And you are right: nothing you and I say, as a couple of armchair apologists, will make a difference. I suppose that that true dialog…dialog in love …and real desire for real unity…is gonna have to take place between the EOC and the CC leadership. I guess all we can do is pray…

One of the problems is that to many people see working for unity as something the “higher ups” will/should do and not us lay folks…I believe there is work to be done by the" higher ups", but also believe it is up to us lay folks to get to know and love and respect each other. Most Roman Catholics know NOTHING about our Orthodox brethren. If we dont know each other…how can we become “united”.

Thats why I find these boards as well as attending Orthodox services and events to be so beneficial. I also think the Orientale Lumen conferences put on every year are a great place for Catholics and Orthodox to get to know each other.

 

[JackQ]

You’re still offended by my infamous Protestant remark. I already apologized for offending an Orthodox poster by making that statement, and it was a careless way of making my point. I believe I already apologized to you because of your relatives. I should have made the statement in the form of a question, like “how is that different from Protestantism, etc.?” The way I said it sounded too accusatory in hindsight, and I didn’t consider how much it would hurt Orthodox feelings. That said, the manner of speaking of most of the Orthodox on these forums is so aggressive I did, perhaps wrongly, assume that such is the way they like to talk about these things. How many times have I read here that Catholicism and Protestantism are two sides of the same coin? But you’re right. Just because they do it doesn’t make it right for me to do the same. I stand justly rebuked by my brother Catholic and fellow Irishman.

 

[JackQ]

As usual its the Latin way or the highway! More nonsense.

How do you go from “*To me, the Latins have equally valid ways of reaching the same conclusions as the Orthodox – they simply go about it quite differently,” to *"[a]s usual its the Latin way or the highway!" It seems to me he was saying exactly the opposite.

 

[dzheremi]

If the Orthodox Churches respected the Petrine ministry, we wouldn’t be in this situation.

I believe they do. All apostolic churches do. It is Rome that has asserted that it deserves more than “respect” for its See. Respect is not the problem.

Now take a look at that comment. Was that at all helpful? Did it move you any closer to the Catholic position?

Why should it, if I maintain that the Catholic position is wrong? Let Rome give respect as the Orthodox Churches respect one another, not as subordinates.

By triumphalist rhetoric, I mean the kind of talk that implies that right is all on one side, wrong is entirely on the other.

I don’t think any serious investigation into the Schism can ascribe blame to one side only, and I’ve never read any Orthodox apologetics that do so. I certainly wouldn’t do so, either. That doesn’t preclude recognizing one side as keeping the apostolic faith while the other has not. We’re all born into this world of schism, so you have your side and other people have theirs as well.

 

[JackQ]

Well Prove to me that the Pope and the Church of Rome had ‘‘Supremacy’’ when it was Established in the very beginning.

The only Evidence i have seen so far was that the Pope and the church of Rome only had ‘‘Primacy’’

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you mean regarding the primacy versus supremacy question. When I look at the Fathers I see something much more than the Pope as a ceremonial head. At the same time, I do not see a justification for the canonical superstructure that exists in the Latin Church today. My suggestion is that you study the role of Peter in the New Testament, evaluate what the Fathers had to say about it, and pray that God gives you light on the subject.

 

[JackQ]

Being closed minded does not bring a person to a logical conclusion of the Truth. Have you tried debating with a brain washed closed minded Jehovah witness.
They are Taught to keep there minds that closed and if any of there members are found to even look at Information outside the watchtower society they are disfellowshipped

Well it did happen that way because this is what caused the split:shrug:

Yes i do Know the difference between agree and disagree

I Agree with what is Proven to be the Truth. I disagree with what is not proven to be the Truth.

No, being closed minded doesn’t help anyone. But someone else being closed minded doesn’t make you or I right. I don’t agree that such was the cause of the split. The reasons for it are far more complex than that. The reason I asked the agree or disagree question was because of the quote from Irenaeus, where he says that everyone should agree with the Roman Church.

 

[JackQ]

The Orthodox church does respect the Petrine miniswtry. It is respected in the person of every bishop.

It is the Papacy that has often in the past lacked the respect for this in brother bishops.

I made that statement as a rhetorical device. What I think is that there have been times when the popes didn’t respect the role of his brother bishops, and times when the bishops didn’t respect the special role of the Petrine See.