This Example is no where near modalism. Modalism is 1 Person putting on 3 different masks and Acting out 3 different roles.
Would Paul have taken the keys off Peter if Peter was Abusing his Authority by demanding Supreme Authority over Paul?
You mean the Divine authority that Constantinople so coveted, causing the split?Would Paul have taken the keys off Peter if Peter was Abusing his Authority by demanding Supreme Authority over Paul?
Like Rome abused their Authority by demanding supremacy over the EO churches and causing the split!!
Yes. This is what I mean with my frustrating remarks. It appears that the magesterium is back tracking. If it isn’t, then why was it permitted to go on without correction? One could make the argument as in St. Crysosistom’s days that it existed but took a while to correct the heresy, and we just happen to be in the time of its correction. If you think carefully about it, it almost sounds like the CC is looking very hard to align itself to Orthodoxy. And do it by claming that understanding this was misapplied, which may be the case. If you think about who ran the Catholic schools for so long it sort of makes sense. Catholic nuns who were taught to submit and obey no matter what. Many sisters, and probably brothers too, learned incorrectly. Brother RJ, Franciscan Friar, explained this in a pretty good way on a different forum. He said that women were not allowed to take theology and got into the habit of misapplying many things, some more than others. This ignorance perpetuated a myth and therefore confused a lot of Catholics.
What evidence is there that the Patriarch of Constantinople coveted some authority?
I’m all ears on this one.
Sure, if Jesus told him to do so, but Jesus did not, and Peter did not abuse the Petrine office, even, in light of his obvious character flaws, inherent in every sinful human. David is a perfect example of a fallible and terribly flawed human being guided by the HS to provide us with infallible scripture. The keys have nothing to do with Peter’s personal life, as is the case with his successors. The Petrine office has to do with the gates of hell never overcoming Jesus’ church built on Simon, renamed Rock, as per Matthew 16, and the key holder of the Petrine office, in conjunction with the apostolic body of Bishops, which includes the successor of Peter, have been entrusted with the mission to bind and loose, as they are moved by the Holy Spirit.Would Paul have taken the keys off Peter if Peter was Abusing his Authority by demanding Supreme Authority over Paul?
Like Rome abused their Authority by demanding supremacy over the EO churches and causing the split!!
amen! Amen! Amen!!!
I’d like to clarify that all of the bishops have the authority to bind and loose as well. Can the Holy Father, against the will of the bishops, make a decision contradictory to what they have determined to be “correct”, for lack of a better word? We’re talking about on the matter of faith and morals. My understanding that when the Holy Father speaks “Ex Cathedra” he’s speaking from the Chair of Peter, after carefully evaluating what the cardinal of bishops and experts inform him about. The Holy Father must be able to comprehend a tremendous amount of data in order to do this. As a matter of fact, I’ve read that this has only been done twice. We assume that what he says is infallible, but that doesn’t mean it is infallible necessarily. As Catholics we are required to fallow our Patriarch, the Pope, not one of the Orthodox Patriarchs. That should be respected on some term. All of the study I’ve done so far indicated false pride on both sides at various histories. Even the Apostles argued who would be the greatest, but Jesus scolded them and ended up very seemingly to lean towards Peter. More later. MS1 is on.
Very well stated!I’d like to clarify that all of the bishops have the authority to bind and loose as well. Can the Holy Father, against the will of the bishops, make a decision contradictory to what they have determined to be “correct”, for lack of a better word? We’re talking about on the matter of faith and morals. My understanding that when the Holy Father speaks “Ex Cathedra” he’s speaking from the Chair of Peter, after carefully evaluating what the cardinal of bishops and experts inform him about. The Holy Father must be able to comprehend a tremendous amount of data in order to do this. As a matter of fact, I’ve read that this has only been done twice. We assume that what he says is infallible, but that doesn’t mean it is infallible necessarily. As Catholics we are required to fallow our Patriarch, the Pope, not one of the Orthodox Patriarchs. That should be respected on some term. All of the study I’ve done so far indicated false pride on both sides at various histories. Even the Apostles argued who would be the greatest, but Jesus scolded them and ended up very seemingly to lean towards Peter. More later. MS1 is on.
Actually he wrote to every Catholic bishop on the planet for their opinion, looked at the results and made his decision.
The problem I see with that is that nobody knows for sure exactly which papal bulls have been proclaimed ex cathedra. For example, there is the question of humanae vitae. There has been a discussion among theologians concerning whether this was proclaimed ex cathedra or not.
No i dont think i am describing the adoptionist heresy because Jesus was born 100% God and 100% man at the Incarnation. but that means 100% God the ‘‘SON’’. Then at the baptism God the holy spirit Joined him.
There is a scripture that says the holy spirit also bled on the cross.I understand, but you didn’t mention what you think, or that what you think was important to the question.No i dont think i am describing the adoptionist heresy because Jesus was born 100% God and 100% man at the Incarnation. but that means 100% God the ‘‘SON’’. Then at the baptism God the holy spirit Joined him.
Jesus was not on the earth when Peter was building the church. Also the first church he built was Jerusalem Church then at one stage he built the Antioch Church. Then finally the last church he built and settled at is the Roman church.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
No, the church of Rome is not superior to any of the Eastern Orthodox churches, but the fact remains, Rome was where Peter passed on the keys, (given to him alone by Jesus) - to his successors, who eventually did the same. Shaky, when Jesus said to Simon, thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven…was He referring to the church of Jerusalem, the church of Antioch, the Eastern Orthodox Church of Constantinople, the CC of Rome, or all of the above?
I agree that there is a scriptural passage where Jesus commands Peter to bind and loose and that there is also a scriptural passage where Jesus commands all of the apostles to bind and loose.
The constantinople Patriarch was the One that was excommunicated first for sticking to the Guns of Primacy. Was the Divine Authority of Rome = Supemacy
I would have to say Jesus gave Simon=Peter the Keys= That Jesus was referring to all the churches. The Reason why is because Jesus said ‘‘KEYS’’ referring to plural. Which is more then One key=A key for each church.Hey shaky…
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
No, the church of Rome is not superior to any of the Eastern Orthodox churches, but the fact remains, Rome was where Peter passed on the keys, (given to him alone by Jesus) - to his successors, who eventually did the same. Shaky, when Jesus said to Simon, thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven…was He referring to the church of Jerusalem, the church of Antioch, the Eastern Orthodox Church of Constantinople, the CC of Rome, or all of the above?
I agree that there is a scriptural passage where Jesus commands Peter to bind and loose and that there is also a scriptural passage where Jesus commands all of the apostles to bind and loose.
Now you have got me thinking. I will have to pray study scripture and meditate on things. I never heard of the Adoptionist heresy until you mentioned it.