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mitex
Guest
I remember the Russian Orthodox Patriarch specifically saying that he would not open discussions of dialogue that had to do with reunification of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches.
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Peter_J
Guest
The Orthodox are pretty skeptical about unification talks with any group they consider to be in heresy. This is also from the blog article I just cited:
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Hesychios
Guest
This is kind of a loaded statement and would require some unpacking.
Sometimes we read a journailists interpretation of something and we don’t get a complete sense of what is said. I don’t know when or in what context a patriarch said this. It would have probably been prompted by someone’s question or comment, and we would have to know what the circumstances were, even which patriarch, since the current one has been in place just three years.
In any case there are a couple of ways we could define ‘unity’. For Orthodox unity is expressed first and foremost in belief, and that must precede communion. For Orthodox there is no compromising on the matter, but obviously if the Papacy was to adopt Orthodox theology entirely and retract anything that does not belong then communion is quite possible and welcomed. Clearly then (if what you say is basically true), it is not this kind of scenario that the patriarch would have been addressing.
Then there is a question of ecclesiology. What does RE-unification mean? Does it mean something that has never existed before? One wouldn’t think so. It should mean a form of ecclesiology that existed and was shared before the breakup. Yet the RC ecclesiology is clearly a developed institution, so it can’t mean that exactly, it would have to be reverting to an earlier form of church governance and I don’t see any Orthodox patriarch objecting to that at all.
If you find a quote or reference a book maybe we can figure out just what was meant by this statement you are informing us about …
kind regards
Michael
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Peter_J
Guest
Indeed, phrase like discussing reunification are misleading, since they make it sound like both sides want the same thing. In reality, Catholics want Orthodox to become Catholic, and Orthodox want Catholics to become Orthodox.
Contrast this with the situation of the TAC, who want to become Catholic, or the situation of the EOC (in the 80s), who wanted to become Orthodox (and did).
Contrast this with the situation of the TAC, who want to become Catholic, or the situation of the EOC (in the 80s), who wanted to become Orthodox (and did).
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Peter_J
Guest
The article Never the Twain? was quoted and discussed in the Why do the Orthodox need Catholics? thread. But it seems appropriate to quote it here anyhow:
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JacobSyrOrtho
Guest
Oriental Orthodox Rejected Nestorius schism.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Russian Patriarch dashes hopes of meeting with Pope Benedict
By Deacon Nick,on January 30th,2012
Kirill,the Russian Orthodox Patriarch,has dashed hopes of meeting with Pope Benedict in the near future,despite the two Churches working more closely together on many issues facing Europe,including the threat from secularism.
“For such a meeting to succeed we need to solve,or at put some serious effort at solving,our issues,” Kirill told the Serbian Vecernje Novosti daily in an interview published on Sunday.
“It’s a hot topic,but Kirill and the Patriarchy in Moscow just don’t need this meeting,” said Roman Lunkin,a religion analyst with the Institute of Europe at the Russian Academy of Science.
But a personal meeting with Benedict XVI would get Kirill on the wrong side of powerful conservatives within his own church,who are already accusing him of an overly pro-Western stance,Lunkin said.
Among Catholics,a reconciliation meeting was the dream of John Paul II,but not of Benedict XVI,he added.
The Kremlin has been pushing for the meeting in order to highlight Russia’s “integration in the Christian world,” but the president “failed to overcome the patriarchy,” which also opposes his much-touted modernization agenda,Lunkin said.
Protect the Pope comment:This is sad news for various reasons,including the obvious intransigence of the anti-Rome faction in the Russian Orthodox Church which is still powerful enough to put a brake on the patriarch’s desire for closer cooperation between Moscow and Rome. The problem is that some sections of Orthodoxy,like some protestants,define themselves through their antagonism towards the pope,and not the Gospel imperative of unity.
By Deacon Nick,on January 30th,2012
Kirill,the Russian Orthodox Patriarch,has dashed hopes of meeting with Pope Benedict in the near future,despite the two Churches working more closely together on many issues facing Europe,including the threat from secularism.
“For such a meeting to succeed we need to solve,or at put some serious effort at solving,our issues,” Kirill told the Serbian Vecernje Novosti daily in an interview published on Sunday.
“It’s a hot topic,but Kirill and the Patriarchy in Moscow just don’t need this meeting,” said Roman Lunkin,a religion analyst with the Institute of Europe at the Russian Academy of Science.
But a personal meeting with Benedict XVI would get Kirill on the wrong side of powerful conservatives within his own church,who are already accusing him of an overly pro-Western stance,Lunkin said.
Among Catholics,a reconciliation meeting was the dream of John Paul II,but not of Benedict XVI,he added.
The Kremlin has been pushing for the meeting in order to highlight Russia’s “integration in the Christian world,” but the president “failed to overcome the patriarchy,” which also opposes his much-touted modernization agenda,Lunkin said.
Protect the Pope comment:This is sad news for various reasons,including the obvious intransigence of the anti-Rome faction in the Russian Orthodox Church which is still powerful enough to put a brake on the patriarch’s desire for closer cooperation between Moscow and Rome. The problem is that some sections of Orthodoxy,like some protestants,define themselves through their antagonism towards the pope,and not the Gospel imperative of unity.
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Peter_J
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^^ Interesting. Who’s Deacon Nick?
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Hesychios
Guest
So then, does the Pope want solve the serious issues the MP is concerned about, or would this be just another photo - op?Russian Patriarch dashes hopes of meeting with Pope Benedict
By Deacon Nick,on January 30th,2012
Kirill,the Russian Orthodox Patriarch,has dashed hopes of meeting with Pope Benedict in the near future,despite the two Churches working more closely together on many issues facing Europe,including the threat from secularism.
“For such a meeting to succeed we need to solve,or at put some serious effort at solving,our issues,” Kirill told the Serbian Vecernje Novosti daily in an interview published on Sunday.
“It’s a hot topic,but Kirill and the Patriarchy in Moscow just don’t need this meeting,” said Roman Lunkin,a religion analyst with the Institute of Europe at the Russian Academy of Science.
But a personal meeting with Benedict XVI would get Kirill on the wrong side of powerful conservatives within his own church,who are already accusing him of an overly pro-Western stance,Lunkin said.
Among Catholics,a reconciliation meeting was the dream of John Paul II,but not of Benedict XVI,he added.
The Kremlin has been pushing for the meeting in order to highlight Russia’s “integration in the Christian world,” but the president “failed to overcome the patriarchy,” which also opposes his much-touted modernization agenda,Lunkin said.
Protect the Pope comment:This is sad news for various reasons,including the obvious intransigence of the anti-Rome faction in the Russian Orthodox Church which is still powerful enough to put a brake on the patriarch’s desire for closer cooperation between Moscow and Rome. The problem is that some sections of Orthodoxy,like some protestants,define themselves through their antagonism towards the pope,and not the Gospel imperative of unity.
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dvdjs
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Another?
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Peter_J
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P.S. I did a little checking. That article apparently comes from a blog called “Protect the Pope”.
Perhaps all the blog’s readers know Deacon Nick well enough that putting his last name isn’t necessary.
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RoderickA
Guest
I am by no means making a judgement on either of these men. But I am reminded of the saying “Every saint has a past. And every sinner has a future”.
In terms of the original question put to us here; Yes, I support union of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I don’t think the majority of us are so naive as to believe the question is as simple as that - as most of your comments here show.
Many of you have pointed out; How that union comes about, what it will look like, and how it functions? Well, this can mean many things. But we do have much to be thankful for; God has sent bright lights into the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches who are working, studying, and praying over all of this, individually and jointly.
In all honesty is there anything more than this to be done? Your answer should be yes. We should all be praying for unity. Not naively, but with the full confidence that it is the Will of God. We can all pray " …Thy Will be done …".
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kalel76
Guest
I’m jumping in way late here, but what is an “essential Catholic teaching and belief”. Are the Immaculate Conception and Assumption essential?
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Peter_J
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They were dogmatically defined in 1854 and 1950, respectively.
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kalel76
Guest
I know they were defined, but are they essential? How is it that they weren’t essential until then?
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Nine_Two
Guest
According to the decrees which made them dogma they are essential.
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Peter_J
Guest
Well, we can at least say that they are essential (from a Catholic p.o.v.) since they were dogmatically defined. I won’t try to say whether they were essential even *before *that.
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Emerite
Guest
I go along with JRKH, Forum Master that " reunification of the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches may not be possible under the existing “understandings” of these things based on 1000 years of independent development.
BUT - - Give men of good will on both sides time to discuss, pray, and seek understanding and, in God’s good time, reunification is entirely possible."
And, starting with things we have in common, the East and West can compromise and grow together in faith. Perhaps, with unity, the East and West could one day agree on a pope, with both the East and West presenting candidates for cardinals that both East and West would agree upon. This might involve lots of research, work and cross-examination, but I think it is possible.
And I’m hearing that Anglican priests from the UK are converting to Catholicism, with the CC accepting them into the priesthood, along with their current wives. So if this is possible, why can’t married Eastern Orthodox priests convert and become Roman Catholic priests, in a reunified East/West Church? However, I personally do believe that celibate priests, who devote their lives to their priesthood, make better priests as well as candidates for the office of bishop, etc. However, celibacy is a church law and not God’s law.
My spouse and I just returned from a tour of the Holy Land with a group from a local Roman Catholic Church on pilgrimage. At the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, in the Eastern Orthodox section, I noted an older Eastern Orthodox clergyman observing our group for quite some time. I could read “favorable” in his expression, perhaps from some wisdom gained during my years of experience working in the State court system for a state judge. I wanted so much to approach this clergyman, take his hand, and say, “someday we’ll all be together.”
I too pray for God’s grace on those charged with discussion between East and West, that they be granted Wisdom and Humble hearts. Our Christian unity would benefit the world, as we together face the challenge of those anti-Christian believers who want to destroy Christians and Christianity.
BUT - - Give men of good will on both sides time to discuss, pray, and seek understanding and, in God’s good time, reunification is entirely possible."
And, starting with things we have in common, the East and West can compromise and grow together in faith. Perhaps, with unity, the East and West could one day agree on a pope, with both the East and West presenting candidates for cardinals that both East and West would agree upon. This might involve lots of research, work and cross-examination, but I think it is possible.
And I’m hearing that Anglican priests from the UK are converting to Catholicism, with the CC accepting them into the priesthood, along with their current wives. So if this is possible, why can’t married Eastern Orthodox priests convert and become Roman Catholic priests, in a reunified East/West Church? However, I personally do believe that celibate priests, who devote their lives to their priesthood, make better priests as well as candidates for the office of bishop, etc. However, celibacy is a church law and not God’s law.
My spouse and I just returned from a tour of the Holy Land with a group from a local Roman Catholic Church on pilgrimage. At the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, in the Eastern Orthodox section, I noted an older Eastern Orthodox clergyman observing our group for quite some time. I could read “favorable” in his expression, perhaps from some wisdom gained during my years of experience working in the State court system for a state judge. I wanted so much to approach this clergyman, take his hand, and say, “someday we’ll all be together.”
I too pray for God’s grace on those charged with discussion between East and West, that they be granted Wisdom and Humble hearts. Our Christian unity would benefit the world, as we together face the challenge of those anti-Christian believers who want to destroy Christians and Christianity.
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Nine_Two
Guest
Believe it or not, what you said is an actual issue rather than what you spoke about.
We don’t want a voice in choosing the pope, and we don’t want our bishops elected Cardinals. Those are offices of the Western Church and we no longer want to be on the College of Cardinals than we want members of the Latin Church to be part of our Holy Synods.
Part of coming together on unity is deciding what unity means. For many Roman Catholics that means coming together to form a single autocephalous church, with, at most, autonomous branches.
For us, Unity would mean that all the churches form a number of autocephalous churches united in faith.
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mardukm
Guest
Compromise might be an option canonically speaking, but it is impossible on the dogmatic level. On the dogmatic level, mutual understanding is the only avenue available.
Blessings,
Marduk
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