Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

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(Pius XI, Mortalium Animos) Quote…

…But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from:shrug:

Is not the very issue Pope Pius XI speaks on here relevant?
I don’t think Mortalium Animos was directed specifically at the Orthodox. It seems instead to address his reasons why he opposes ecumenical participation in worldwide organizations like the WCC. However this thread is directed at the specific issue of ‘union’ between Holy Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholic communion, which could perhaps be considered a part of his bigger issue, so I will respond with my reflections as if that was what he principally had in mind …

What he seems to be saying here is that he is aware that some churchmen are willing to treat the Roman Catholic church as an equal as in the first millennium church and he’s not buying it. He wants to impose the second millenium new ecclesiology of treating them as inferiors on them and they are not buying it.

He is also accusing them of errors, which he can fix if he ever gets control of them (this is a contradiction to people here who say there is no difference between Orthodox and Roman Catholic beliefs. 🤷)

Nothing new here.
 
(Pius XI, Mortalium Animos) Quote…

…But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from:shrug:

Is not the very issue Pope Pius XI speaks on here relevant?
I don’t think Mortalium Animos was directed specifically at the Orthodox. It seems instead to address his reasons why he opposes ecumenical participation in worldwide organizations like the WCC. However this thread is directed at the specific issue of ‘union’ between Holy Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholic communion, which could perhaps be considered a part of his bigger issue, so I will respond with my reflections as if that was what he principally had in mind …

What he seems to be saying here is that he is aware that some churchmen (Orthodox?) are willing to treat the Roman Catholic church as an equal as in the first millennium church and he’s not buying it. He wants to impose the second millennium new ecclesiology (of treating Orthodox as inferiors) on them and they are not buying it.

He is also accusing them of errors, which he can fix if he ever gets control of them (this is a contradiction to people here who say there is no difference between Orthodox and Roman Catholic beliefs. 🤷)

Nothing new here.
 
I think it says you don’t really think we’re the devil if you are willing to make a deal as long as you achieve equality .

peace
 
CCC

1073 The liturgy is also a participation in Christ’s own prayer addressed to the Father in the Holy Spirit. In the liturgy, all Christian prayer finds its source and goal. Through the liturgy the inner man is rooted and grounded in “the great love with which [the Father] loved us” in his beloved Son.11 It is the same “marvelous work of God” that is lived and internalized by all prayer, "at all times in the Spirit."12

Catechesis and liturgy

1074 "The liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; it is also the font from which all her power flows."13 It is therefore the privileged place for catechizing the People of God. "Catechesis is intrinsically linked with the whole of liturgical and sacramental activity, for it is in the sacraments, especially in the Eucharist, that Christ Jesus works in fullness for the transformation of men."14

Peace
 
I think it says you don’t really think we’re the devil if you are willing to make a deal as long as you achieve equality .

peace
Two points to make here:

-1- I don’t know why you say anything about devil, I don’t think it has ever been brought up in this thread.

-2- There is no ‘achieve’ anything. It is already a fact that all Orthodox churches are equal and have been from the very beginning. If (supposing) Pope Pius XI desired to change that ancient dynamic he obviously didn’t.

No deals, either your church embraces correct theology or you will never be admitted into communion.
 
Which brings us back to my original question. If you are only to be concerned with yourself, why dialogue?
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ, counting equality with divinity as nothing to be grasped at, left a conversation with God and likewise gave us a mission in the world. The post is meant for all secure in the truth.

peace.
 
Which brings us back to my original question. If you are only to be concerned with yourself, why dialogue?
If you’ll forgive my saying so, it looks like he’s got you in a hamster wheel (or whatever it’s called).
 
If you’ll forgive my saying so, it looks like he’s got you in a hamster wheel (or whatever it’s called).
John 21 : 20 Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them – the one who had leant back close to his chest at the supper and had said to him, ‘Lord, who is it that will betray you?’ 21 Seeing him, Peter said to Jesus, ‘What about him, Lord?’ 22 Jesus answered, ‘If I want him to stay behind till I come, what does it matter to you? You are to follow me.’

BTW I never said my concern was only for myself

peace
 
Saint Gregory Palamas had personal experience of the Grace of God. From this experience he knew that the light that these virtuous monks saw was divine, uncreated energy of God, the Grace of the Holy Spirit, lived as supernatural Light, which infuses the nous of the monks once it was cleansed of passions. By referring to the works of older distinguished teachers of the Church, and with his own heavenly wisdom, he proved theologically that the Light which is viewed by the hesychast monks is the uncreated Light of the Holy Trinity. In relation to this he writes: “It is for this reason then, that the lover of perfect communion with God avoids the technologically assisted life, and chooses the monastic and un-structured state, and he eagerly offers himself to the sanctuary of stillness, without the obligations or worries of life, relieved from all other (worldly) relationships. Thus, having released his soul from every material bond, to the extent that this is attainable, he attaches his nous to the unceasing prayer to God, and having, through it, concentrated the nous entirely into himself, he finds a new and secret ascent to the heavens, the intangible obscurity of the apocryphal stillness, as one would say. And having precisely concentrated his nous into himself with secret bliss, in a state of utterly simple but perfect and sweet tranquility, and in genuine silence and speechlessness, he flies above all creation. And thus, having been removed from himself and become entirely God’s, he sees the glory of God and contemplates divine light” .

greekorthodoxchurch.org/neptic_monasticism.html
 
(Pius XI, Mortalium Animos) Quote…

…But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from:shrug:

Is not the very issue Pope Pius XI speaks on here relevant?
Very possibly it is relevant. After all, the central question is whether or not dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox (or, for that matter, between Catholics and Anglicans, or between Catholics and Lutherans, etc.) is to be “on equal terms” – symmetrical, as we might say.
 
Gary, I think this old post is also very relevant to what you’re talking about:
I think what I am about to post may insult some people, and I ask for forgiveness right now. But I feel I really need to express it.

Contrary to popular belief, there is a lot of Mystery in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, particularly the Latin Church, really has not made that many dogmatic pronouncements about the Faith. There is a LOT of theologoumenon in the Latin Church.

Having said that, here’s the part which I think may insult some individuals: I think some Easterns/Orientals who feel frustrated at some of the theologoumenon in the Latin Church are not being true to their heritage of apophatic spirituality and theology. I TOO often hear the argument: “Why doesn’t the Pope make that more clear? What use is the Pope if he can’t settle this issue?”

My response would be “Well, why should he?” It is so inconsistent and hypocritical to accuse the Catholic Church (especially the Latin Church) of too much dogmatism, and then turn around and argue that they need MORE dogma.

But I do sense often that some Eastern/Oriental Catholics go Orthodox because of their frustration with Western theologoumenon. For instance, I’ve heard EC’s complain of the idea of purgatorial fire, or the idea of guilt being passed on in original sin, or that Mary never died, etc, etc., etc. My viewpoint is that since I am not required to believe any of that, it really does not concern me, and thus it does not bother me. I have no business as an Oriental Catholic complaining about what goes on in the Western Church, as long as they don’t try to impose their beliefs on me. So why, I always wonder, do I TOO often hear Eastern and Oriental Catholics want to impose their own theologies and beliefs on the Westerns, to the point that if the Westerns don’t accept their points of view, then they run off to the Orthodox Church?

Since I was not born and bred Catholic, I have never really been exposed to the tensions between Latin, Eastern, and Oriental Catholics. In that light, I admit I may not really have a right to judge the feelings of my fellow Eastern/Oriental Catholics and their frustrations with the Western Catholics. But I do feel obligated to call my fellow Easterns and Orientals to consistency.

I would ask my fellow Easterns and Orientals to try to be more discerning between Latin theologoumena and the actual offical teachings of the Catholic Church.

Please note I am writing this with respect to theologoumena. I do recognize that there are Western dogmas that are a cause of genuine uneasiness and tension- though of course I believe these dogmas properly understood can be presented in a manner that is not incompatible with the Eastern or Oriental Traditions.

Humbly,
Marduk
I think this post is very helpful to the present conversation because it expressed an idea that is implied almost every day on this forum, but rarely stated. Namely, the idea that if Rome dogmatically defines X or Y, then the East may or may not have good reason to complain; but if Rome simply believes X or Y without requiring the East to believe it, then it automatically follows that the East cannot complain.
 
Originally Posted by Peter J
But, since Catholics have approved Orthodox as having the same faith, Orthodox statements to the contrary are irrelevant. Conversely, since Catholics have not approved Lutherans as having the same faith, Lutheran statements to the contrary are irrelevant. (Granted, you might hear something different on a Lutheran forum or an Orthodox forum.)
Not meaning any offense to people who think that way, but I think this
Fone_Bone_2001 said:
That, then, is or should be the only difference between an eastern Orthodox community and an eastern Catholic one: the latter realizes that the Latin Church is fully orthodox, and so they realize how insane it is not to be in communion with the bishop of Rome.
is a much more common way of thinking on this forum.
 
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