Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

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In the west

Today is the solemnity of the Annunciation of the Lord.

26In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be.30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.

32He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.34 And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?”35 And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.36 And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren.37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaiden of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. (Lk 1:26-38)*

peace
 
Peter_J said:
Gary, I think this old post is also very relevant to what you’re talking about:

I think this post is very helpful to the present conversation because it expressed an idea that is implied almost every day on this forum, but rarely stated. Namely, the idea that if Rome dogmatically defines X or Y, then the East may or may not have good reason to complain; but if Rome simply believes X or Y without requiring the East to believe it, then it automatically follows that the East cannot complain.
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I find the complaints helpful to the formation of my conscience.

peace
 
Peter_J said:
Not meaning any offense to people who think that way, but I think this is a much more common way of thinking on this forum.
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Don’t think my statement conveys a lack of awareness of what most Orthodox Christians believe. Nothing in Hesychios’ reply (the one to which you were responding in the above post that I quoted) surprised me in the slightest: I am well aware that this is the Orthodox position, and I do respect its consistency.

I was simply explaining the thinking of someone who would want to be in both an eastern Christian church and in communion with Rome, or the “Orthodox in communion with Rome” position as they often call themselves. Their view is that Rome is orthodox… so obviously being in communion is better.

Of course Hesychios - and most eastern Orthodox - don’t think Rome is orthodox. If they did, we would be in communion with them. That is indeed the difference.

I even agree with Hesychios on the principle that unity of faith is necessary in order to be in full communion with each other. What we differ on is that I do not believe any Catholic church is heterodox. We don’t disagree on the principle itself.
Peter_J said:
That’s a whole different can of worms – but, yes (if I remember correctly) I did read that on one of the threads on this forum as well.
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Doubt it. What you probably read was that they don’t understand our (i.e. Catholic) beliefs where we are thought to be heterodox.

That is not the same thing as saying they don’t understand their own beliefs, nor does it in any way presuppose or rely on the proposition that they don’t understand their own beliefs.
Hesychios said:
With all due respect to the Supreme Pontiff, this statement greatly oversimplifies (and thereby distorts) the reality of the situation and does not address the fact that we are in this predicament because of the actions of Roman Catholic Cardinals behaving in an outrageous manner after their boss the Pope had deceased. One of those men became a Pope later and he was in a position to repent and fix this mess but he didn’t even try.
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I think you’d agree that that event is not really the cause of our lack of communion nor even the beginning of it. Neither side intended to break communion with whole patriarchates. It was part of a long chain of events that began at least by 800 and ended in the late thirteenth century…
Seamus_L said:
I wish Rome would drop the overly ecumenical approach and just face the reality that we don’t believe the same things as the Orthodox, and face the fact that no amount of attempted compromise will change that.
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No one says we believe “the same things” in the sense of shared theological vocabularies and emphases.

The relevant question for the matter of unity is whether either communion is heterodox.

Only if the answer is yes is remaining in schism justified.
 
One problem with determining this is that different people have different opinions about what our theological differences are.

St. Photius the Great, Patriarch of Constantinople, who lived in the 9th century and was the most important historical figure in the theological debates between east and west, listed them as follows in the “Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs”:

The first error of the Westerners was to compel the faithful to fast on Saturdays…
Next, they convinced the faithful to despise the marriage of priests…
Likewise, they persuaded them that all who had been chrismated by priests had to be anointed again by bishops…
They attempted by their false opinions and distorted words to ruin the holy and sacred Nicene Symbol of Faith — which by both synodal and universal decisions possesses invincible power — by adding to it that the Holy Spirit proceeds not only from the Father, as the Symbol declares, but from the Son also…
home.comcast.net/~t.r.valentine/orthodoxy/filioque/photius_encyclical.html

For him, the most important difference by far was the filioque since it regards the dogma of the Holy Trinity and the Nicene Creed. Notice, however, that the Papacy, which is regarded by many modern theologians as the most important different, is nowhere here mentioned!

Other Orthodox have a much broader opinion and believe that we differ in virtually every area, including fundamentals such as the reason for the Incarnation (e.g. ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html).

I’ve personally spoken to an Orthodox priest who doesn’t even believe the Filioque is a real difference when properly understood.

Reunion will be impossible until there’s at least a consensus about our differences.
 
dcointin said:
One problem with determining this is that different people have different opinions about what our theological differences are.

St. Photius the Great, Patriarch of Constantinople, who lived in the 9th century and was the most important historical figure in the theological debates between east and west, listed them as follows in the “Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs”:

The first error of the Westerners was to compel the faithful to fast on Saturdays…
Next, they convinced the faithful to despise the marriage of priests…
Likewise, they persuaded them that all who had been chrismated by priests had to be anointed again by bishops…
They attempted by their false opinions and distorted words to ruin the holy and sacred Nicene Symbol of Faith — which by both synodal and universal decisions possesses invincible power — by adding to it that the Holy Spirit proceeds not only from the Father, as the Symbol declares, but from the Son also…
home.comcast.net/~t.r.valentine/orthodoxy/filioque/photius_encyclical.html

For him, the most important difference by far was the filioque since it regards the dogma of the Holy Trinity and the Nicene Creed. Notice, however, that the Papacy, which is regarded by many modern theologians as the most important different, is nowhere here mentioned!

Other Orthodox have a much broader opinion and believe that we differ in virtually every area, including fundamentals such as the reason for the Incarnation (e.g. ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html).

I’ve personally spoken to an Orthodox priest who doesn’t even believe the Filioque is a real difference when properly understood.

Reunion will be impossible until there’s at least a consensus about our differences.
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👍

I would only add that St. Photius’ list, excluding the filioque of course, contains no actual theological differences, to say nothing of dogmatic differences. Rather he points out differences in practice/customs. That being said, the Latins certainly needed correction on the issues he mentions.
 
Fone_Bone_2001 said:
I was simply explaining the thinking of someone who would want to be in both an eastern Christian church and in communion with Rome, or the “Orthodox in communion with Rome” position as they often call themselves. Their view is that Rome is orthodox… so obviously being in communion is better.
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It’s interesting, isn’t it, how often it happens that, once we are convinced of something, it isn’t long until it becomes obvious. 🙂
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
👍

I would only add that St. Photius’ list, excluding the filioque of course, contains no actual theological differences, to say nothing of dogmatic differences. Rather he points out differences in practice/customs. That being said, the Latins certainly needed correction on the issues he mentions.
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Why do you think the papacy wasn’t mentioned then? Or was it in other places by St. Photius? I’m interested in everyone’s opinion on this.
 
dcointin said:
Why do you think the papacy wasn’t mentioned then? Or was it in other places by St. Photius? I’m interested in everyone’s opinion on this.
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The issue of the Papacy getting involved in things that don’t concern it seems implicit in those comments. The bigger issues, such as papal infallibility, didn’t exist at the time.
 
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