Do you tend to discount (or be somewhat dismissive) of priests/nuns who wear "civilian" clothes?

[Lepanto]

My priest once told me that you should be able to tell a catholic by their actions, behavior and personality - it doesn’t need any outward symbols. Surely we should be able to tell priests and religious in the same way!

I think this will work when I can master the art of mind reading. I wasn’t born with the gift of mental telepathy.

 

[palmas85]

1.) It depends on the circumstances. “Yes” or “no” simply do not suffice in the poll. Should a priest wear clerics to change the oil in his car? Should he jog in a cassock? Should a sister wear her black veil to paint a ceiling?
2.) Not every order has a habit, even back 40 or 50 years ago. I went to an elementary school where sisters were taught to be teachers, along with some lay student teachers. Some orders of Benedictines and Dominicans never wore habits, even in “olden times” before VII. You could tell the sisters because they behaved as sisters should.

I can think of three or four sisters right now, who do not wear a habit, because their order does not have a habit in the sense of a long dress or robe with a veil, and never did.

Does it mean something when an order has a habit? Sure! Does that mean I discount those who do not? Not on your life!!

Which orders please? Specifically those that never had them and those who did not 40-50 years ago

 

[mdgspencer]

Pope John Paul II insisted that priests and nuns should wear distinctive clothing identifying their state in life. Personally, if I see a preist or sister dressed entirely in secular clothing one one occasion, I don’t worry about it, but if I learn that they never wear something distinctive, I am dismissive about their committment to their state in life and pay little attention to them, and in fact I suspect that they are a dissentor. This last may be unfair though now that I think of it. I work in an institution where there are a number of priests and sisters, by the way, and I regret that none of them wear religious clothing at any time during the many times I have seen them.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

So yes, the priests and religous who are out of the habit of the habit (or clerics) generally need to win me over. If you get bit enough times by a few big dogs, all big dogs start to look scary.

This is precisely the line of reasoning that occurred to me. The poll asked whether we tend to discount priests and religious in civvies. It didn’t ask whether we think we ultimately should, so there is little point in browbeating someone for merely being honest about the fact that, yes, he does tend to dismiss those not in clerical/religious garb.

I know of a pretty solid Jesuit who nonetheless never wears his blacks, and even if I didn’t I would be fully aware that the mere lack of clerical garb did not automatically mean this wasn’t a very good priest. STILL, as you said, if the vast majority of those you meet who are not dressed in clericals/habit turn out to be suspicious characters, you eventually form an instinctually guarded response to them. It’s the old, “If it walks like a duck…” schtick.

I think what many of the good priests and religious who don’t dress distinctively fail to realize is that they are sending a message with their clothing either way. On the one hand, they can wear something that identifies their state and presumed commitment to Christ, they wear something recognizable as a “uniform” for their vocation. On the other hand, if they don’t wear this and then people find out their state in life, many of those people will see just as clearly a “uniform” worn by those who are disobedient or heterodox. The presumption can be mistaken and overturned in either case, but that doesn’t prevent the original message from having been sent.

 

[mdgspencer]

I recall those days in the 1960s myself, forty years ago. There was a great deal of disruption in Catholic life then, right after Vatican II. If you went back ten years before to the 1950s, though, I don’t think you would have found sisters who did not wear habits, and in fact that was the situation for sisters for centuries before.

Which orders please? Specifically those that never had them and those who did not 40-50 years ago

 

[passivesquid]

Choice of attire does not constitute denial of faith.

amen!

 

[Sarabande]

I don’t dismiss those who wear civilian clothes all the time or those who wear habits. Unless I know the priest, I rarely ever know if a man in civilian clothing is a priest. With sisters, I can usually tell if they are a sister even if they aren’t wearing a habit. They tend to wear similar, dowdy suits (not putting down the suit) with a pin and crucifix, and they all have their hair very short. I’ve only made the mistake once where I thought this woman at the parish was a sister. She wasn’t. Ooops! But she was fine with that. Nothing bad about being referred to as “Sister”.

That said, there was something always comforting in being able to see outward physical signs of religious and priests. As a child I loved being able to walk down a street, or in a store and see a group of sisters or a couple of priests. My father was a doctor at a Catholic hospital where Mercy sisters worked. In the 80s, some still wore their habits and it was always nice going to the hospital once in a while and seeing them there. They are still there, of course, but not as prominent, visually. They and the IHM sisters who were teachers in my school and still wore their habits in the 80s and 90s, had inspired me to become a sister too. The sisters at the hospital would often ask my father how their “Little Sister” was doing. (I have since realized that wasn’t my calling and am now married.)

Anyway, in a strange way seeing priests and other religious in their habits make me feel proud of being Catholic and reminds me of how much of a influence and responsibility we, as Catholics, have to do good. There are so many of us. Many of the priests in my parish wear their cassocks on Sundays and their black during the week, although once in a while I’ll see them in civilian clothes. The St. Joseph sisters who live in the convent there have a mix. Some wear their habit with the veil, others wear the suits.

On the other hand, seeing priests in civilian clothes remind me that they are just as human as the rest of us. The first time I ever saw priests not in habit was a little girl. My father’s best friend was in the seminary from a very young age to his early 20s. He left the seminary, became a doctor, got married and has four children, but stayed friends with many of the men who eventually became priests. We were visiting at the Chesapeake and a huge group of them, it looked like 10 or more, came for the weekend. They all went swimming with their bathing trunks. Seeing them in trunks was so weird to a little girl. They actually wore colors and only swim shorts? hahah! I remember one reminded me of a picture in one of those religion books where Jesus was being baptized by John the Baptist. But that experience let me realize that they were human and made mistakes like everyone else.

The same when my friend and I first saw the IHM sisters hang their laundry out to dry. We just didn’t think they wore underwear or pjs. We thought they kept their habits and veils on all the time - even slept in them.

 

[feargalmac]

Which orders please? Specifically those that never had them and those who did not 40-50 years ago

There is an order (in Dublin, Ireland) founded in France during the French Revolution that never had what might be called a traditional habit. They wore the clothes of the time. I remember my father telling me that up until VII they wore Victorian style dresses.

Having said that, I think it says something when we see that it is those orders that still wear the habit that are attracting novices.

I have a lot more respect for those that wear their clerical attire.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The two exceptions were one young priest just out of seminary who insisted when ever possible on biretta, cassock, cape and the whole nine yards. He in my opinion was a rather full of himself and had difficulty with people from day one. He suffered from depression and eventually took his own life. That being said he was never-the-less a very orthodox priest who loved the Church. Pray for his soul.

May his soul rest in the Divine Mercy.

I think the religious should wear some kind of religious garb or habit. I wish more priests would wear the cassock, actually, but at least their clericals, unless they’re jogging or something like that. Due to the heat here, they really couldn’t wear a cassock unless it was white, such as was worn in the tropics and may be still.

I watched the installation of Bishop Baker in Birmingham last PM. There was a point in the service where Mother Catherine (Mother Angelica’s vicar) and other religious came up to greet the new bishop. Probably a personal prejudice on my part, but I think Mother Catherine is about the loveliest nun I’ve ever seen. And the habit spoke volumes, as did the fact that she knelt and kissed his hand (others did as well, some didn’t). The nuns in business suits just don’t cut it, from a witness to consecrated life perspective. That said, I don’t think the nuns have to go all the way with a wimple that cuts off everything, but their face. The Dominicans of St. Cecilia in Nashville actually wear a modest, conservative, but technically modified habit. The headgear is just a cap and a moderate length veil. I didn’t think Mother Angelica HAD to go back to every element of the traditional dress and I have to wonder how practical that is in Alabama, in the humidity and heat. There is something to practicality. Blessed Teresa of Calcutta and the Missionaries of Charity are an example of a good adaptation, too.

I am, however, weary of pantheistic nuns who wear earrings and priests who want me to call them “Steve.”

I read a story, may have been in these fora, where a little girl and her mother were in an airport. Two priests walked by in their cassocks and the little girl cried to her mother,“Mommy, look! There’s the Church!”

 

[Sarabande]

There is an order (in Dublin, Ireland) founded in France during the French Revolution that never had what might be called a traditional habit. They wore the clothes of the time. I remember my father telling me that up until VII they wore Victorian style dresses.

I don’t know the order, but there might be a reason for that. I know that during the French Revolution, all priests and religious were banned from wearing their habits or from congregating and celebrating mass. They wanted to make it basically a secular nation. Priests dressed in their clerical garb were sometimes shot down in the streets. Religious orders were thrust out of their monasteries and forced to wear civilian clothing.

Poulenc’s opera, “The Dialogues of the Carmelites” is about the Carmelite nuns who were thrown out of their monastary during the French Revolution and beheaded because of their faith. They refused to give up meeting and had secret masses, etc. and were eventually caught, held in prison and sent to the guillotine. Their martyrdom was actually one of the catalysts to end the Reign of Terror. It did end not long after their beheading. Of course, Poulenc also had a fictional story concentrating on one of the new young nuns, but the historical period behind it was real. It was the very first opera I ever performed in and although it is not one of my favorite operas, it is one that affected me deeply, especially because it dealt with Catholic martyrdom.

So, perhaps that order you spoke of stems from those nuns who were forced to wear civilian clothes during the revolution.

 

[Lepanto]

I don’t know the order, but there might be a reason for that. I know that during the French Revolution, all priests and religious were banned from wearing their habits or from congregating and celebrating mass. They wanted to make it basically a secular nation. Priests dressed in their clerical garb were sometimes shot down in the streets. Religious orders were thrust out of their monasteries and forced to wear civilian clothing.

Correct. To wear religious garb during France’s “Reign of Terror” or in its aftermath was not only illegal but it made oneself a marked man.

 

[Lovemyfaith]

Nope.
Their vocation is for God, not so much for what I see or don’t see.

 

[turtle18]

But if the Pope requires them to wear religious garb as one other poster put it, and they aren’t, isn’t the real issue that they aren’t following their vows of obedience? And if they aren’t following it for this, what else are they being disobedient on?

And if they don’t follow this vow, which of the other vows are they breaking?

 

[historybrat]

I suppose to depends on the situation. I tend to agree with a lot of the posters and wish more priest and nuns would wear “religious” clothes. I think it is a great example of being proud of our faith and communicates a lot to others without having to say a word. I also think first impression are important and when I see a religious person out in normal street clothes, even though I try not to I do wonder about why they aren’t dressed differently.

However, my priest is almost always in street clothes, although he does not carry himself like everybody else so I think most people would know he’s a priest regardless of what he wears. I’ve meet him out in public (usually the post office for some strange reason) and it didn’t bother me. I guess because after going through RCIA with him I know him and it doesn’t affect me. I try to be like that with everybody (not judging by appearance) but I have to admit its a fault I"m still working on.

Historybrat

 

[Lepanto]

Nope.
Their vocation is for God, not so much for what I see or don’t see.

Their vocation is for God?

Maybe by not wearing religious garb they’ve subconsciously turned their vocation into something for themselves.

 

[Lovemyfaith]

Their vocation is for God?

Maybe by not wearing religious garb they’ve subconsciously turned their vocation into something for themselves.

Well I wouldn’t make that jump. Priests, nun, religious in general have nothing to prove to me, so why would it matter what I think when I pass them walking down the street? I think it is more important how they are serving the people and ultimately how they are serving God.

Of course this is not to say I have anything against those who do wear religious habit. I think that is a beautiful testament to their faith, not the only testament of course, but beautiful nonetheless.

 

[snowfly]

Do you tend to discount (or be somewhat dismissive) of priests/nuns who wear “civilian” clothes?

In other words, do you not take them as seriously if they are wearing normal street clothes instead of clericals/habits?

I don’t like it, and it could be a fear factor with all the scandal, they should be fearless witnesses, I heard that Our Lady said that they should always wear their Roman collar, to show that they are always on duty.

Anyway besides, onetime I recognized one out of his clerical dress and I did not know the man, he was surprised, more so shocked.

As for nuns, I think their casual dress is a disgrace, they don’t look like any nuns I knew as a child.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

If you’ve had a heart attack and are conscious enough to look for a priest, surely you would be able to either contact one, or get someone else to contact one for you. And for that matter, a nearby priest seeing this, if he is acting in a Christian manner would go across in concern.

Actions surely remain more important than dress.

LOL - you have all your bases covered don’t you?

Except imagine please that one of your passersby is not the priest, but someone who passed a priest that they could identtifu by dress in another part of the store or park, they can run back to get him.

But I am curious if you feel similarly about wedding rings?

 

[Chickie]

I can confidently say that most non-Christian Australians would be very uncomfortable in the presence of a nun or priest (especially) in full garb. Aussies don’t like symbols of religion or authority pushed in their faces. Or even walking past. So the likelihood of quality interactions with non-Christians is much lower than if a priest looks like a normal guy.

In other words, I think that Australians in particular are more open to conversion through the faithful life of a priest/nun if their clothing was not a barrier. I imagine that the proportion of Church-going Catholics that think a priest or nun is better off in full garb would be extremely low. What huge pressure to stick out like a sore thumb everywhere you go! The most recognised priest in my state wears crosses on his lapels.

I don’t think that Saint Paul needed a uniform to be a most successful Apostle.

 

[Philothea53]

Sorry, but I still have to disagree with you here. A particular clothing style is not a requirement to be a faithful Christian.

Then why have clerics at all? Why vestments? Why do we wear crucifixes around our necks? Why scapulars?

I gave our ‘outgoing’ Rector who was on his way to sabbatical, a shirt embroidered with the Knights of Columbus logo and his name as Father FirstName LastName. He thanked me and said he liked it and would wear it whenever he wanted it to be known that he is a Priest. Huh??