Do you think catholic education is overpriced?

[PatriceA]

What you have to remember about the public school average is that it includes special education that is mandated by law. That includes monitors who attend class with some students and education for children with profound issues. It also includes alternative schools and ESL.

Of course, since the Catholic schools don’t accept those children, their costs are less. Not making a judgement here, just putting the costs in context. To properly compare costs, you have to compare the Catholic school cost to the public school mainstream student cost.

True. I’m only going by the figures our former parish school used to compare their expenses to the cost of the average student at the local public school. I don’t know if they used mainstream student cost or not, they didn’t specify.

 

[PaulinVA]

Eliminate the cost from your public school budget. How much is it now per student?

I’m not sure you can do that. Most school systems take operating expenses divided by number of students to get their number.

You would also have to take transportation out, and other things.

Would it be fair to say once you’ve taken out those costs that the Catholic school costs get a lot closer to the public school mainstream costs?

 

[buffalo]

I’m not sure you can do that. Most school systems take operating expenses divided by number of students to get their number.

You would also have to take transportation out, and other things.

Would it be fair to say once you’ve taken out those costs that the Catholic school costs get a lot closer to the public school mainstream costs?

No - marginally. Say they even come down 1000 per student the gap is still huge. Catholic schools educated very efficiently. The public system is wasteful.

 

[PaulinVA]

No - marginally. Say they even come down 1000 per student the gap is still huge. Catholic schools educated very efficiently. The public system is wasteful.

I would alternatively say that the Catholic schools don’t pay a living wage, and that keeps costs down.

I know you were on a Catholic school board - which tasks exactly are you talking about being delivered more efficiently? Classroom instruction? Physical plant maintenance?

 

[tafan]

I would alternatively say that the Catholic schools don’t pay a living wage, and that keeps costs down.

I know you were on a Catholic school board - which tasks exactly are you talking about being delivered more efficiently? Classroom instruction? Physical plant maintenance?

Many of our Catholic school teachers are wife’s of successful men, a couple are retired public school teachers already on pension, a couple are young and right out of college. A living wage, as defined by the Leo XIII, is defined by one’s needs plus a amount to allow for savings. By that definition, all of our teachers are paid a living wage. Yes, there are people who would like to teach at our school who cannot because they require more to live than we can afford. But for all our employees, we pay a living wage.

 

[PaulinVA]

Many of our Catholic school teachers are wife’s of successful men, a couple are retired public school teachers already on pension, a couple are young and right out of college. A living wage, as defined by the Leo XIII, is defined by one’s needs plus a amount to allow for savings. By that definition, all of our teachers are paid a living wage. Yes, there are people who would like to teach at our school who cannot because they require more to live than we can afford. But for all our employees, we pay a living wage.

What? That is so wrong.

At the very least, the teachers you hire are not paid the market wage for their services. Wow. “The school is going to pay you less than you are worth because you have a pension/your husband makes a lot of money/you are young and need a job”. So, I guess that Catholic school teachers are in effect donating their talents to the Church.

 

[Kelfa28]

Our school is that Catholic, that’s why we make the sacrifice. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being basically CINO, watered down catechesis, lots of dissent from church teaching, etc, and 10 being like a pre-Vatican II Catholic school, ours is about an 8, “Catholicity” speaking. Academically, it’s above the school district we live in, and at least on par with the other 2 districts the parish encompasses.

In Christ,
Ellen

Our parish has a k-8 school that is on par with yours.
Very devote and they really drive home that as parents…we are the primary educators of the faith…regardless of the school. Our priest is blunt about this and makes no secret of it at orientation every year.

It’s very exciting to have this blessing only 10 mins from our house. I’m excited about my daughter attending there and would love to volunteer there as well.

 

[bookgirl32]

Well, that is certainly snarky. If we met in the vestibule after Mass, would you say that to me in person?

No, our family teaches self reliance and making your own decisions and then making them happen. I was remarking that Buffalo, whom I respect and normally agree with, was basically saying that everyone at a parish should pay for the private school tuition of all the parish kids.

That sounds just like what I hear from the current crop of politicians who have so many great ideas of what they will do with other people’s money.

I support the Church and I support other worthwhile causes. The fact I don’t think that providing Catholic schooling for other people’s kids shouldn’t lead to make your comment.

I understand that there are good Catholic school systems. I understand that the Church, as an institution that values self preservation and continuing to exist, uses it’s power to tell all of us we have to support Catholic education. I do, but I don’t do it blindly.

I can see your point when you’re looking at $5000 - $15000 per child tuitions. No parish in their right mind would ask parishioners to do that. But what if it was more along the lines of where I live? From $150 to $800 a year? Would that make a difference in your thinking? I’m not exactly sure how it works, but it’s not as if each parishioner is saying, “Here’s the money going to the church, here’s the money going to the school.” More like the parishioner tithes, and after the totals a certain percentage is allotted to the school (as well as to the one central high school). Once the money is given, it is considered the parish’s money, and the parish does what they see fit.

 

[PaulinVA]

I can see your point when you’re looking at $5000 - $15000 per child tuitions. No parish in their right mind would ask parishioners to do that. But what if it was more along the lines of where I live? From $150 to $800 a year? Would that make a difference in your thinking? I’m not exactly sure how it works, but it’s not as if each parishioner is saying, “Here’s the money going to the church, here’s the money going to the school.” More like the parishioner tithes, and after the totals a certain percentage is allotted to the school (as well as to the one central high school). Once the money is given, it is considered the parish’s money, and the parish does what they see fit.

Your $150 to $800 a year is already being heavily subsidized by someone.

What I have found is that parishes with schools keep track of the money very closely, in terms of which families give the minimum amount to qualify for sending their children to the school in the first place. And, yes, I understand that one gives ones donation to the parish and the parish meets it’s obligations with it.

Having a parish school is a financial commitment on the part of the parish. How much it subsidizes the tuition for the school, and what obligations it places on the parishioners, is up to the pastor.

 

[Bklynguy]

Well, I go to a combined junior senior high… I am currently in 8th grade in the junior high and my tuition is 5,000 dollars not including lunch money, book fees ect. For the highschool it is about 10,500 dollars. Is this a cheap, average, or high price for a quality catholic education??

  Thanks in advance,
                   Trey C. :)

That’s not that bad. My daughter is starting pre-K Catholic school next year and we will be paying about $4,000. Public schools are way more than that per pupil.

 

[psalm51mercy]

I agree with those who argue that Catholic educators don’t make enough. A living wage is necessary to attract top quality teachers. Many schools struggle with this. Is the answer to raise tuition? Perhaps.

 

[tafan]

What? That is so wrong.

At the very least, the teachers you hire are not paid the market wage for their services. Wow. “The school is going to pay you less than you are worth because you have a pension/your husband makes a lot of money/you are young and need a job”. So, I guess that Catholic school teachers are in effect donating their talents to the Church.

First of all, there is no market wage for teachers. The public school system employs most teachers and their salaries have gone up at a very high pace for at least 20 years in this area. Secondly, you made the libelous accusation that catholic schools do not pay a living wage, with very little knowledge to back up the calumny.

I have you a proper definition of living wage. Yes, I would guess every teacher in our school could make a lot more working outside the catholic school system. Our PE teacher was a professional welder before starting to teach. Two of our olde teachers were engineers. Yes: they are all completely aware that the market could pay them more.

But a starting teacher at our elementary school is paid typically around 30-35k. for a single young person, not going to get rich, but it is a living wage.

 

[SamH]

What? That is so wrong.

At the very least, the teachers you hire are not paid the market wage for their services. Wow. “The school is going to pay you less than you are worth because you have a pension/your husband makes a lot of money/you are young and need a job”. So, I guess that Catholic school teachers are in effect donating their talents to the Church.

I guess you don’t know what a market wage is.

 

[PaulinVA]

I guess you don’t know what a market wage is.

Yeah, that must be it.

Tafan:

First of all, there is no market wage for teachers. The public school system employs most teachers and their salaries have gone up at a very high pace for at least 20 years in this area. Secondly, you made the libelous accusation that catholic schools do not pay a living wage, with very little knowledge to back up the calumny.

No, wait, Tafan, you said that your school doesn’t pay a living wage. You said that the teachers are retired and have a pension, or a husband who makes a lot of money - I infer from that they couldn’t live on their Catholic school salary alone. Is that not the inference that should draw from your statement?

Tafan:

Many of our Catholic school teachers are wife’s of successful men, a couple are retired public school teachers already on pension, a couple are young and right out of college.

A market wage is what the market pays. If you want to make the market the Catholic School market only, and not include all elementary teachers in X county, public and private, then you are not being totally correct. If you did that, you would find that Catholic elementary school teachers don’t earn as much as their public counterparts.

 

[tafan]

PaulVA:

No, wait, Tafan, you said that your school doesn’t pay a living wage. You said that the teachers are retired and have a pension, or a husband who makes a lot of money - I infer from that they couldn’t live on their Catholic school salary alone. Is that not the inference that should draw from your statement?

I said no such thing, you made the libelous accusation in post #64.

I provided examples as to why the wages they are paid are a living wage due to their life situation. They do not require as much money as many do to live, hence they receive what they need (and a for some of them, much more than this). This is a living wage. The actual amount required varies greatly among people. We employ teachers who are thankfully willing to give up market wages and accept a much lower amount. We do not employ teachers who wage requirements are beyond our means.

You are the one convoluting the issue of living wage and market wages (two very different things). The Church is under no moral obligation to pay market wages, it is under a moral obligation to pay a living wage. I would love to be able to pay teachers at Catholic schools more, but we cannot afford to do so. But we are blessed to have people who will sacrifice what they can make elsewhere in order to teach at our school. I believe other Catholic schools would fall into very similar situations as what ours does.

A market wage is what the market pays. If you want to make the market the Catholic School market only, and not include all elementary teachers in X county, public and private, then you are not being totally correct. If you did that, you would find that Catholic elementary school teachers don’t earn as much as their public counterparts.

I know that they do not receive what their public school counterparts make. We look at wage scales of all of the public schools in our area as we evaluate budgets for our school. That has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of Catholic school teachers making a living wage.

 

[SamH]

Yeah, that must be it.

Glad we all agree.

No, wait, Tafan, you said that your school doesn’t pay a living wage. You said that the teachers are retired and have a pension, or a husband who makes a lot of money - I infer from that they couldn’t live on their Catholic school salary alone. Is that not the inference that should draw from your statement?

It’s one. But that doesn’t mean its right.

A market wage is what the market pays. If you want to make the market the Catholic School market only, and not include all elementary teachers in X county, public and private, then you are not being totally correct. If you did that, you would find that Catholic elementary school teachers don’t earn as much as their public counterparts.

Apparently you forgot that you don’t know what market wage means.

The market wage is the price for labor determined by the labor market. The supply of labor is determined by the workers or employees. The demand for labor is determined by employers. The intersection of demand and supply determine the quantity and price of labor. In this case the supplier and the buyer came to an agreement on the price. Why do you have such an issue with that?

 

[PaulinVA]

I said no such thing, you made the libelous accusation in post #64.

Libel is defined as exhibiting reckless disregard for the truth. I am neither entering into this conversation recklessly nor am I exhibiting disregard for the truth. Your posts actually buttress my case.

I provided examples as to why the wages they are paid are a living wage due to their life situation. They do not require as much money as many do to live, hence they receive what they need (and a for some of them, much more than this).

Why do you pay them anything? If the husband (I’ll say spouse) makes six figures and they are living comfortably, and the teacher spouse wants to go back to work after their kids are grown, are you actually saying that you would offer them nothing because they don’t need the teacher’s salary? Of course you’re not. You are saying that you are not paying what they are worth, you are paying them what they will accept.

You are the one convoluting the issue of living wage and market wages (two very different things). The Church is under no moral obligation to pay market wages, it is under a moral obligation to pay a living wage. I would love to be able to pay teachers at Catholic schools more, but we cannot afford to do so. But we are blessed to have people who will sacrifice what they can make elsewhere in order to teach at our school. I believe other Catholic schools would fall into very similar situations as what ours does.

So, do you think a market wage is what someone is worth in the market? If you pay them less than that, are you being morally right? You are paying them less than they are worth.

If you step back and look at what you have written, do you see that, by your own statements, you believe that Catholic schools don’t pay market wages, and rely on people who don’t need to be paid what they are worth in the market to be teachers at Catholic schools?

I don’t think this is necessarily wrong. Teaching in a Catholic school is a sacrifice and a ministry of sorts. It is very noble to use your talents in this way. However, we need to be honest that we are relying on teachers to donate their time and talent to make Catholic schools work.

 

[Frank_Drebin]

When considering the average family income, it is way overpriced. It reflects a major failure of the Church in our country. The Church commands us to send our children to schools which provide a Catholic education. The corollary is that the Church has to provide these schools to us (otherwise how can we ever follow the command).

Now, make no mistake about it, those prices certainly reflect less than the cost of a Catholic education (I have financial management for a Catholic school, so I know this). However, the Church has to find a way to provide affordable, good Catholic schools to all Catholic families. This entails a lot of things, but first among them should be to educate all Catholics on the importance of a Catholic education and how it is the entire Church’s responsibility to provide that education.

The Church is at fault for poorly catechizing people and letting the flock wander away into laziness, greed, and immorality.

However, in the end, it has gone up because we as parishioners give so little these days. How many people in the pews tithe? Not that we have to, but wouldn’t it be nice to provide an education that every member of the Church could afford?

The fault of the prices in most ways lies at the feet of the stingy people who’ve been attending mass for the past thirty years. Rarely does the Church come first for most Catholics, and many whose kids go to school don’t even attend weekly mass.

Remember, many Catholic schools are private, and have no real connection to the Diocese. They don’t get funds, and generally cost way more. So if you want to see expensive, look at non-parochial schools. Here is where I’d like to send our daughter, but we are weighing it against the parchial school we like in the area since it is very catholic, but half the cost. The question is which one has a better education:

trinityschoolmd.org/admissions/tuitionandfees.php

$12,300/year for K-8 is insane.

Their education far surpassed any school in the state when I attended, and set me way ahead of my peers, which is something I am still reaping the benefits of today as a working adult. So it too expensive is somewhat relative. My mother would clearly think it was worth it in the end. Had I been a big flop in life and fallen away from the faith, it probably wouldn’t have. But judging things in retrospect isn’t generally fair the person who has to make decision without forenowledge.

 

[tafan]

If you step back and look at what you have written, do you see that, by your own statements, you believe that Catholic schools don’t pay market wages, and rely on people who don’t need to be paid what they are worth in the market to be teachers at Catholic schools?

I don’t think this is necessarily wrong. Teaching in a Catholic school is a sacrifice and a ministry of sorts. It is very noble to use your talents in this way. However, we need to be honest that we are relying on teachers to donate their time and talent to make Catholic schools work.

I know we do not pay them market wages, I have been very clear about that (well, maybe not in my first post on the subject). But I claim we do pay them living wages.

You don’t think it is wrong? Well, why in the heck did you bring this up in the first place, just one more way to attack Catholic schools?

Have a blessed Good Friday. I am leaving this conversation now.

 

[PaulinVA]

I know we do not pay them market wages, I have been very clear about that (well, maybe not in my first post on the subject). But I claim we do pay them living wages.

You don’t think it is wrong? Well, why in the heck did you bring this up in the first place, just one more way to attack Catholic schools?

Have a blessed Good Friday. I am leaving this conversation now.

I was engaging in this conversation because I think that we need to recognize the sacrifice that families of Catholic school teachers make. I did not send my children to Catholic schools but that doesn’t reduce the sacrifice.

I’m sorry this got to the point it did. Tafan, may you and Sam have a blessed Good Friday and entire Easter Tridium.