Do you think drums played at mass is appropiate?

[OraLabora]

In a way, that’s often what we attempted to do when evangelizing: imposing our notion of Western cultural superiority. We don’t do that any more, I hope.

Nobody today is talking about imposing “anything”, but it’s likely if a parish has a large ethnic group in it, some of their cultural traits will find their way into the liturgy. We had several busloads of Poles from Toronto show up at the abbey for Sunday Mass one day and their habits were different, for example when to kneel for the E.P. It was a bit awkward but not the end of the world.

When “Silent Night” was first played accompanied by the guitar it caused scandal. But now it wouldn’t be considered in appropriate to play it at Midnight Mass.

As was said it isn’t the instrument but the manner in which it is played and whether it is played at appropriate times. I agree emphatically with you that rock-concert style drumming has no place at Mass. But I don’t agree that it’s impossible to play a drum or guitar many other instruments appropriately in the liturgy.

I myself have a preference for Gregorian chant, a Capella, I sing regularly in a Gregorian schola, and am a director of the Gregorian institute of Canada. But I recognize that Gregorian chant isn’t for everybody and that Latin is a serious obstacle in some parts of the world where the language is radically different from Western languages (e.g. in Asia).

The Church is universal, that is not synonymous with uniform. So my answer would be one that is not one of the choices offered: drums can be appropriate at Mass.

 

[JakeWI]

In a way, that’s often what we attempted to do when evangelizing: imposing our notion of Western cultural superiority. We don’t do that any more, I hope.

Nobody today is talking about imposing “anything”, but it’s likely if a parish has a large ethnic group in it, some of their cultural traits will find their way into the liturgy. We had several busloads of Poles from Toronto show up at the abbey for Sunday Mass one day and their habits were different, for example when to kneel for the E.P. It was a bit awkward but not the end of the world.

When “Silent Night” was first played accompanied by the guitar it caused scandal. But now it wouldn’t be considered in appropriate to play it at Midnight Mass.

As was said it isn’t the instrument but the manner in which it is played and whether it is played at appropriate times. I agree emphatically with you that rock-concert style drumming has no place at Mass. But I don’t agree that it’s impossible to play a drum or guitar many other instruments appropriately in the liturgy.

I myself have a preference for Gregorian chant, a Capella, I sing regularly in a Gregorian schola, and am a director of the Gregorian institute of Canada. But I recognize that Gregorian chant isn’t for everybody and that Latin is a serious obstacle in some parts of the world where the language is radically different from Western languages (e.g. in Asia).

The Church is universal, that is not synonymous with uniform. So my answer would be one that is not one of the choices offered: drums can be appropriate at Mass.

It may very well be that the priviledge is abused in being able to use those instruments in Mass. And I will be honest, I haven’t yet seen a Catholic Mass use those instruments in a solemn, respectful way… and I have been to at least a dozen when trying out different Parishes.

Our church isn’t just organ and piano either, especially during Lent and Advent. We alternate during normal masses between the two throughout the Mass… along with the occasional choirs. Though during our Easter Vigil Mass, they pulled out a bunch of variety of instruments and songs. We had gregorian chant, we had traditional choirs singing, we had bells played during the start of communion, which went into the song being played on both the organ and piano with the choirs singing, we had the viola and cello, we had a couple songs sung in Latin, alongside the Angus Dei which we have just started doing since that Mass, and even the last song had a trumpet sounding alongside the organ and the choir (both female and male). And I will say, that was the most beautiful mass I have ever been to… I don’t think I have ever been hit that much before or connected that much in my life. My parents joined my wife and I for it, and my mom was crying because of how powerful it was. She thought it sounded like something she would hear at a Cathedral. It was over two hours long, but it definitely didn’t seem like it. I heard people telling our Priest after Mass that he outdid himself on it. It was just amazing.

So with that, I do agree that certain additional instruments can work in certain situations to provide a solemn, prayerful, beautiful experience. I guess I just never heard those instruments (guitar, drums, etc) being used to do that yet, and I probably won’t as our Director of Music doesn’t like to use those. In the meantime, I will thank God that I have a parish that is able to connect for me, spiritually through the music and the word. Both of those things together give me the greatest connection to God.

 

[christofirst]

Sunny Jain: “The bass drum should be played lightly and should almost be felt and not heard.”

What I dislike is bombastic drum playing at Mass that overpowers the venue (not that church or the Mass should be considered a “venue” as in “concert venue”, but sometimes it feels that way to me). It is as distracting to me as singers/cantors who get carried away with their own virtuosity: “I knoooowwww that my redeeeeemer liiivvves, that I shall rise agaaainn” But that’s just my opinion…

 

[OraLabora]

The problem at our parish and I doubt we’re by any means unique, is the ability to find sufficient gifted musicians. We live in a rural area and our parish is in a nearby small town. Gregorian chant is probably out of the question unless I took the bull by the horns and started a schola. Problem is I’m a pretty good chorister but a pretty lousy director and even worst soloist. And I already sing in an established schola in a small city 50 miles away. People do seem to genuinely do their best, but the chance of my hearing the same quality in the parish compared to our nearby abbey (where the abbot is an award-winning organist and harpsichordist, and where the Mass, Lauds and Vespers are in Gregorian chant every day), are nil.

It is what it is. Yet the miracle of our Lord appearing in person every Mass is still there. The music may be hokey, but the folks are respectful, quiet and reverent just the same. And the Lord still comes, even for those who can’t hold a tune.

 

[JakeWI]

The problem at our parish and I doubt we’re by any means unique, is the ability to find sufficient gifted musicians. We live in a rural area and our parish is in a nearby small town. Gregorian chant is probably out of the question unless I took the bull by the horns and started a schola. Problem is I’m a pretty good chorister but a pretty lousy director and even worst soloist. And I already sing in an established schola in a small city 50 miles away. People do seem to genuinely do their best, but the chance of my hearing the same quality in the parish compared to our nearby abbey (where the abbot is an award-winning organist and harpsichordist, and where the Mass, Lauds and Vespers are in Gregorian chant every day), are nil.

It is what it is. Yet the miracle of our Lord appearing in person every Mass is still there. The music may be hokey, but the folks are respectful, quiet and reverent just the same. And the Lord still comes, even for those who can’t hold a tune.

I think a majority of the musicians for the bells, cellos, and violas we end up having at these special Masses are usually students of some sort in local schools. They are maybe in their late teens/early 20s. Our Dir of Music is really talented though (and she has been there only a year). We are also very fortunate to have a very active Parish and school, a lot of young families attend, a lot who offer up their talents to help. Though our Parish is the largest I have ever gone to… with 4,000 members. I noticed on the directory book we received for the members that we have people as far as 30 miles away coming to our church, and they probably have passed 5-6 churches on their way. I feel like that speaks volumes that our Parish may be a diamond in the rough.

I have also been a member of a church in a small town of 3,000 for many years, and actually went to the Catholic school that was attached… with only 12 kids per grade. They didn’t have the resources our current church seems to be able to attain, but they also did their best. They had a choir that came in during the special Masses and instruments stayed to organ and piano. We had a woman who sang who couldn’t keep the tune most of the time, but she did try. The music always was respectful, prayerful, and was there to supplement the Mass, not be the main attraction. And the Priest was an older Polish Priest… very traditional… so that helped tons.

 

[christofirst]

Anyone who attended the Dave Clark school of drumming should not play at Mass.

 

[Joe_5859]

The most common sense point on this thread. The drum or any musical instrument is just that a tool and it depends how the drum or any other tool is used and that is based many times on culture and tastes on where the parish is located. Any musical tool can be used appropriately or inappropriately. Opinions thread like this border on the edge because what we get is a bunch of Catholics giving opinions on their tastes and it doesn’t mean anything at all and pits people and their preferences against each other.

Say it ain’t so!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. All I ask is that people hear my opinion and then agree with it.

Oh wait, you mean that’s not how it works?

 

[robwar]

Say it ain’t so!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. All I ask is that people hear my opinion and then agree with it.

Oh wait, you mean that’s not how it works?

it’s one thing to have or state a preference of music and instruments but too many on this thread and the others like it think that their opinion of music is Church doctrine and dogma when there is no such official statement at all from the Church except music is to be reverent and respectful. But what is reverent and respectful? That is as various to different people and cultures and places. Too often people have misguided ideas on reverence and respectful.

 

[buc_fan33]

Allow me, if I may, to comment on this. In the first place, you said this:

I heard people telling our Priest after Mass that he outdid himself on it. It was just amazing.

But then, later on, you said this:

I have also been a member of a church in a small town of 3,000 for many years, and actually went to the Catholic school that was attached… with only 12 kids per grade. They didn’t have the resources our current church seems to be able to attain, but they also did their best. They had a choir that came in during the special Masses and instruments stayed to organ and piano. We had a woman who sang who couldn’t keep the tune most of the time, but she did try. The music always was respectful, prayerful, and was there to supplement the Mass, not be the main attraction.

It sounds to me as though you are OK with music being a “performance” (for lack of a better term) if you are personally comfortable with said music. The reality is that music at Mass will ALWAYS be performance. I agree that we are not there to be entertained. But, at the same time, music does serve a purpose, it seems to me. Namely, music can help us enter more deeply into the mystery of the Mass.

This “entering in” happens differently for different people in different cultures. Even within cultures, it happens differently. Personally, I enjoy chant. I find it very prayerful. But, I don’t know that I could say it is OBJECTIVELY more beautiful than contemporary praise and worship music, which I also thoroughly enjoy.

And, I just have to dispute the notion that young people are more drawn to chant than to other genres. I just don’t think the statistics and evidence bear that out. It’s hard to pigeon hole any group of people. Are there youths and young adults who prefer chant? Yes. Certainly. Are there youth and young adults who prefer Matt Maher, Chris Tomlin, and other artists you hear on KLOVE? Yes. You only need to look at how young people are flocking to mega churches and the success of Steubenville Conferences within Catholicism.

At the end of the day, it is only the bread of life in the Eucharist that can truly satisfy the hunger of our souls. No musical genre, regardless of how asthetically beautiful it may be can fill up the longing that we all have for communion with God and with others (by the way, it’s NEVER just ‘Jesus and me,’ it’s always ‘Jesus and we.’ That’s why He started a Church). But, just because music can’t fill that hole does not mean it has no role to play. Music can bring the community together.

It pains me greatly, for instance, to look out during the Pater Noster and to be able, in a Church full of people, to be just about able to count on one hand the number of people who are singing. Now, I certainly think the faithful should know the Mass commons in Latin, and the Pater Noster is certainly included in that. And, by and large, I think many people don’t try to learn the Latin Mass parts, out of laziness, or silent protest, or because they just don’t like to sing, period. But, it’s still disheartening to see.

 

[JakeWI]

Allow me, if I may, to comment on this. In the first place, you said this:

But then, later on, you said this:

It sounds to me as though you are OK with music being a “performance” (for lack of a better term) if you are personally comfortable with said music. The reality is that music at Mass will ALWAYS be performance. I agree that we are not there to be entertained. But, at the same time, music does serve a purpose, it seems to me. Namely, music can help us enter more deeply into the mystery of the Mass.

This “entering in” happens differently for different people in different cultures. Even within cultures, it happens differently. Personally, I enjoy chant. I find it very prayerful. But, I don’t know that I could say it is OBJECTIVELY more beautiful than contemporary praise and worship music, which I also thoroughly enjoy.

And, I just have to dispute the notion that young people are more drawn to chant than to other genres. I just don’t think the statistics and evidence bear that out. It’s hard to pigeon hole any group of people. Are there youths and young adults who prefer chant? Yes. Certainly. Are there youth and young adults who prefer Matt Maher, Chris Tomlin, and other artists you hear on KLOVE? Yes. You only need to look at how young people are flocking to mega churches and the success of Steubenville Conferences within Catholicism.

At the end of the day, it is only the bread of life in the Eucharist that can truly satisfy the hunger of our souls. No musical genre, regardless of how asthetically beautiful it may be can fill up the longing that we all have for communion with God and with others (by the way, it’s NEVER just ‘Jesus and me,’ it’s always ‘Jesus and we.’ That’s why He started a Church). But, just because music can’t fill that hole does not mean it has no role to play. Music can bring the community together.

It pains me greatly, for instance, to look out during the Pater Noster and to be able, in a Church full of people, to be just about able to count on one hand the number of people who are singing. Now, I certainly think the faithful should know the Mass commons in Latin, and the Pater Noster is certainly included in that. And, by and large, I think many people don’t try to learn the Latin Mass parts, out of laziness, or silent protest, or because they just don’t like to sing, period. But, it’s still disheartening to see.

When I talked about the Priest outdoing himself, it wasn’t just the music… it was the entire experience. It was outstanding, well put together, well thought out, and very reverent.

I am very quickly coming to the realization and the understanding that each general area has many different types of people. The Parish I attend is in a very German, very conservative area. I come from a strong German/Polish background as well.
This may be why our church is doing so well, and attaining so many young adults in our general area (and I do see quite a bit who are around my age, and even younger). You can hear everyone’s voices rumble through the church when singing, which I would assume most are participating because of this.

I will never see eye to eye with some of you here, I believe. This feels very much like a political type battle that can often be had as well, but within the same Church. Some of you honestly love the Contemporary stuff, and I accept that for personal taste, but I will never see that as a reverent thing myself, it is an interruption of the ability to worship directly with God. I just hope the church never gets to the point where it will be almost impossible to find a Mass that I will be able to connect with. I will do whatever I can in my current Parish to make sure that doesn’t happen. Frankly, as both our Priest and Music Dir are young and just arrived at our Parish, as long as they are there… I know we are in good hands.

 

[Joe_5859]

it’s one thing to have or state a preference of music and instruments but too many on this thread and the others like it think that their opinion of music is Church doctrine and dogma when there is no such official statement at all from the Church except music is to be reverent and respectful. But what is reverent and respectful? That is as various to different people and cultures and places. Too often people have misguided ideas on reverence and respectful.

Indeed. I have my preferences, but I try not to dogmatize them.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

The problem at our parish and I doubt we’re by any means unique, is the ability to find sufficient gifted musicians.

We’re just the opposite; we’re in a hotbed of musicians. When I was growing up, the Church in the next town over actually had a “guitar Mass.” We had a ridiculous number of extremely talented guitarists, all of whom would bring down their acoustic (no electric) guitars.

 

[Nacho45]

I went to Mass today. Not one instrument. The only sound other than the people was the air conditioning. It was great!!!

 

[awsiukiewicz]

a little afraid to say what I really think here…prbly be banned from the site…but…no…no drums. no cymbals, no guitars…given the organ…I know, I’ve hear all about make a joyful noise…tamborines…etc…I work out of town…and the Mass i attend at one of the Churches , the choir sings 80pct of everything related to the Liturgy. I usually pray the Rosary until the consecration…when it all detracts from the Liturgy it bothers me…

 

[whipp711]

Let me throw a different twist on the personal preference discussion.

I’m wondering if the “placement” of the choir, band, or whatever is an interesting variable. In my progressive leaning Parish, the alter is center front and the choir fills up behind the alter and Priests. It’s like a little amphitheater that focuses on the choir/band. Other Parishes have the choir and musicians off to the side, at the back, or in a choir loft at the back.

Would the de-emphasis of the musician’s placement have an effect on a reverent atmosphere or not?

 

[CruceSignati]

Let me throw a different twist on the personal preference discussion.

I’m wondering if the “placement” of the choir, band, or whatever is an interesting variable. In my progressive leaning Parish, the alter is center front and the choir fills up behind the alter and Priests. It’s like a little amphitheater that focuses on the choir/band. Other Parishes have the choir and musicians off to the side, at the back, or in a choir loft at the back.

Would the de-emphasis of the musician’s placement have an effect on a reverent atmosphere or not?

This is a good question. I wish I could try this out as a test in a few parishes around my diocese.

In a couple nearby churches the music ministers are closer to the altar than the tabernacle is.

A little church down the road has a tiny choir loft (I say tiny because it would maybe hold 12 people) but for the past ten years or so the church has not had a choir (they had a tape player instead ).

My home parish’s choir zone and music ministry are a good 20 feet to the right of the altar (we still have the three steps going up to the altar, so the altar is up a little higher as well). We are kind of noted for being a strange, conservative, almost traditional parish. I mean, we had a communion rail until 8 years ago when the bishop ordered it ripped out. Ah, the old days…

 

[MacQ]

At the Easter vigil mass I attended, a drum set was played during the liturgical music. I was told it was only for that night. I prefer liturgical music without the drums. It seems out of place to me. What do think about drums played at mass?

We’re probably not all talking about the same drums here.
My parish had a orchestral kettle drum at Easter, along with horns. It was beyond beautiful.
Music should reflect liturgy (so we had no accompaniments during lent…acappella)
Excellent.

If you’re talking Ringo Starr or something, maybe that would be offputting…but there are cultural proactices that are perfectly fine (like the mariachi trumpets at a Mass in San Antonio, or tribal drums at an African mass).

 

[bobballen_18]

Everyone, please take a look at this article. It brings up many good points.

unamsanctamcatholicam.com/liturgy/liturgy-articles/78-liturgy/306-drums-at-mass.html

We can debate all we want on if the drums can be played in a “reverent” and “respectful” manner. Maybe they can. But I think most people out there are not aware that the Church does and has always had a clear preference for Gregorian chant and polyphony. As the above article mentioned, Pope Pius X’s motu proprio of 1903, Tra la sollecitudini, outlined all the necessary qualities of Sacred Music. The article also mentioned subsequent documents which support Pope Pius’s directives. These documents either directly quote Pius X or, if we read them with a hermeneutic of continuity, they imply the same things as what Pius X wrote.

I think the hermeneutic of continuity brought up in the article is very important. Yes, maybe Vatican II appeared to be more lenient, but it is still clear what is preferred by the Church. Perhaps they assumed that Catholics would prefer higher quality and traditional music. Contrary to what some people believe, there is such a thing objectively beautiful music, and there is some music that is objectively not as good. If we as Catholics truly believe Christ is Really Present at Mass, why would we not want only the highest and most beautiful music for which to draw people’s minds toward God? It should be only fitting that each parish does their utmost to conform to the Church’s vision of ideal music. I understand that some parishes can’t sing Palestrina all the time, but there is other wonderful sacred music out there in the tradition preferred by the Church - there is no need for guitar and drums.

Okay, there’s my two cents. I’m done babbling. You really should just read the article I just shared - it articulates quite well most of what I just said.

 

[ProVobis]

I’ve heard them being used during the reading of the Passion at the cathedral.

It got to be a little annoying after a while, but I wouldn’t say it was inappropriate.

 

[R_C]

Can you figure drums played at a Mass celebrated by any of the Apostles, or by the saints? Can you imagine St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Robert Bellarmine offer Mass with drums in the background?

This is a XXth-century abomination, never before seen in the history of Holy Roman Church. I think not even in mission territories were such instruments allowed, though traditional in their cultures.