Do you think drums played at mass is appropiate?

[R_C]

From personal experience, it would appear that the youth appreciate traditional Gregorian chant and polyphony rather than profane instruments that have no place in Church where Calvary is re-enacted at Holy Mass. Traditional Mass settings attract youth in a far more substantial way than these '70s era guitar Masses.

I’m 21.

Agreed - I am involved with two youth groups and while praise-and-worship events are great with someone who knows how to play any instrument (even the battery, or drums), a vast majority agrees that any such instrument is entirely inappropriate in a liturgical setting which calls for reverence and solemnity. In the campus youth Mass I serve they use an electric keyboard. They set it to play as organ. It sounds very Catholic. Sometimes more than some of our own Parish music! I have seen priests suggest using guitars and drums to make the Mass more interesting and attractive, and the young people reject the idea, even being disturbed by such a suggestion.

 

[buc_fan33]

Agreed - I am involved with two youth groups and while praise-and-worship events are great with someone who knows how to play any instrument (even the battery, or drums), a vast majority agrees that any such instrument is entirely inappropriate in a liturgical setting which calls for reverence and solemnity. In the campus youth Mass I serve they use an electric keyboard. They set it to play as organ. It sounds very Catholic. Sometimes more than some of our own Parish music! I have seen priests suggest using guitars and drums to make the Mass more interesting and attractive, and the young people reject the idea, even being disturbed by such a suggestion.

I must confess that I have not encountered these same young people. Out of curiosity, define “young.” Are we talking high school age? College? Young adult? There is a pretty wide age range there.

 

[buc_fan33]

Can you figure drums played at a Mass celebrated by any of the Apostles, or by the saints? Can you imagine St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Robert Bellarmine offer Mass with drums in the background?

This is a XXth-century abomination, never before seen in the history of Holy Roman Church. I think not even in mission territories were such instruments allowed, though traditional in their cultures.

As a matter of fact, I can. Pope St. John Paul II offered Mass at World Youth Day in Toronto in 2002, and perhaps others…I just pick this one because I was there…where drums were used.

 

[HoosMommie]

What about a drum is in any way profane?

 

[MacQ]

what about a drum is in any way profane?

good question!!!

 

[R_C]

What about a drum is in any way profane?

The drumminess of the drum, I’d say.

 

[R_C]

I must confess that I have not encountered these same young people. Out of curiosity, define “young.” Are we talking high school age? College? Young adult? There is a pretty wide age range there.

Let’s say 14-30

 

[buc_fan33]

Let’s say 14-30

OK. So, another question. Have you ever been to a Steubenville Youth Conference?

Check out their website…www.steubenville.org

If you’ve never heard of these, they are 20 Catholic youth conferences, attracting teens from all over the United States and Canada. Together, they probably contribute to the evangelization of more than 45,000 youth, conservatively estimated. Many, if not most, conferences, sell out within minutes of spots going on sale.

I would even go so far as to say that there is no single greater event going, anywhere, for the evangelization of Catholic youth. And, they use contemporary praise and worship music in their liturgies. The six conferences I’ve been to as a chaperone and now as a priest are all very tastefully done. I have LITERALLY seen hundreds of lives changed as a result of these conferences. The bishops in the respective dioceses where they are held are on board with what is going on there, as very frequently the local ordinary presides and preaches at the closing Mass.

I guess my point is that while Gregorian chant certainly holds “pride of place” in the Roman liturgy, that doesn’t strike me as the same thing as saying, "Gregorian chant is the only musical genre permitted for use in the Roman liturgy. As St. Paul says, “I became all things to all people, that I might save at least some.”

Trust me when I say, youth are engaged in the liturgies at these conferences.

 

[R_C]

OK. So, another question. Have you ever been to a Steubenville Youth Conference?

If you’ve never heard of these, they are 20 Catholic youth conferences, attracting teens from all over the United States and Canada. Together, they probably contribute to the evangelization of more than 45,000 youth, conservatively estimated. Many, if not most, conferences, sell out within minutes of spots going on sale.

I would even go so far as to say that there is no single greater event going, anywhere, for the evangelization of Catholic youth. And, they use contemporary praise and worship music in their liturgies. The six conferences I’ve been to as a chaperone and now as a priest are all very tastefully done. I have LITERALLY seen hundreds of lives changed as a result of these conferences. The bishops in the respective dioceses where they are held are on board with what is going on there, as very frequently the local ordinary presides and preaches at the closing Mass.

I guess my point is that while Gregorian chant certainly holds “pride of place” in the Roman liturgy, that doesn’t strike me as the same thing as saying, "Gregorian chant is the only musical genre permitted for use in the Roman liturgy. As St. Paul says, “I became all things to all people, that I might save at least some.”

Trust me when I say, youth are engaged in the liturgies at these conferences.

So you are telling me that you attribute conversions and graces to poor and irreverent music in the liturgy?

I’ve been at youth conferences. I know what goes on there. Good and bad fruits. True conversions are not measured by the amount of people who buy a ticket, but by the amount of people who will follow Christ in the Church afterwards. Embracing everything that the Church teaches. Living in the world but not being of the world. Sadly, many of these youth conferences are merely social gatherings, no different from similar events by Protestants, or non-Catholics. I am involved, like I said, with two youth ministries. I know that the temptation is to embrace worldliness and cheerful secular niceness in the form of drums, electric guitars, jumping around and laughing out loud. Catholicism, however, is about recollection, contrition, atonement for the world’s sins. The world needs penance. True joy is peace of heart and is interior. The gift of Awe or Fear of the Lord is much needed and is lacking in too many places. Too many liturgies are celebrations of man rather than true commemorations of the Sacrifice of the God-Man on Calvary. Surely the traditions of the Roman Rite such as Gregorian chant and the organ are most fitting to elicit the proper response of the faculties of the soul to what is happening on the altar. They are not the sole ways, but the trend to adopt other sorts of songs and instruments is nothing but the result of protestantization of the liturgy. Dom Prosper Gueranguer described this anti-liturgical trend as it developed through the XVII-XIX centuries.

Also please don’t tell me that the bishops are on board. I’ve seen the most heinous liturgies presided by bishops.

When it comes to music in the liturgy, I will quote the most recent Papal statements (since Pope Francis has not yet directly addressed this matter):

Commit yourselves to improve the quality of liturgical singing, without fearing to recover and to make use of the great musical tradition of the Church, which in Gregorian (chant) and in polyphony have two of the highest expressions, as the same Vatican II affirms (cf Sacrosanctum Concilium 116). And I would like to underscore that active participation of the whole People of God in the liturgy does not consist only in speaking, but also in listening, in receiving the Word with the senses and with the spirit, and this goes also for liturgical music.

In his authoritative writings concerning the Liturgy, pope Benedict (when still cardinal and Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith) stated:

A renewal of liturgical awareness, a liturgical reconciliation that again recognises the unity of the history of the liturgy and that understands Vatican II, not as a breach, but as a stage of development: these things are urgently needed for the life of the Church. I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy, which at times has even come to be conceived of etsi Deus non daretur: in that it is a matter of indifference whether or not God exists and whether or not He speaks to us and hears us.

When the community of faith, the world-wide unity of the Church and her history, and the mystery of the living Christ are no longer visible in the liturgy, where else, then, is the Church to become visible in her spiritual essence? Then the community is celebrating only itself, an activity that is utterly fruitless.

This is why we need a new Liturgical Movement, which will call to life the real heritage of the Second Vatican Council.

 

[R_C]

Some good resources:

Sacred Music - official journal of the Church Music Association of America

Theological Problems of Church Music by Card. Ratzinger

…] The critical situation of church music today is part of a general crisis of the Church which has developed since Vatican 2. We do not primarily intend to discuss the artistic crisis which is affecting church music along with all other forms of art at present. We shall rather discuss the crisis conditioned by the situation of theology, in other words the properly ecclesiastical and theological crisis of church music, which actually seems to have fallen between two widely differing theological millstones which apparently agree only in grinding musica sacra down to dust. …]

Music and Instruments in the Liturgy by EWTN expert Colin B. Donovan, STL

Pop goes to Mass - the curse of Bad Liturgical Music (part one)

Bad Poetry, Bad Theology - the curse of Bad Liturgical Music (part two)

 

[bobballen_18]

What about a drum is in any way profane?

Last two paragraphs of the article I posted sort of address this:

So there it is. According to the mind of the Church, drums are absolutely not an instrument suited for divine worship in the Latin rite; St. Pius X called them “noisy and frivolous.” Because they are fundamentally secular in nature and have no pedigree of usage in worship in the west, they are therefore classified as suitable only for secular music and prohibited “absolutely” by the rules of Pius X, Vatican II and Musicam Sacram. A pastor who insists on using drums is not thinking with the mind of the Church. Unfortunately, the particulars of what is and isn’t permitted are left up to the local Ordinary, and that’s where things start breaking down, because we know that the interpretations and whims of a bishop can be as varied as the weather in Michigan.

Ditch the drums. They are not suited to the liturgy, have no place in our tradition and are not at all what either Pius X or Vatican II had in mind when they made concessionary allowances for other instruments. If we trust the Church’s judgment, why not simply do what she asks? Chant is the answer.

It seems to me with the question of drums, it’s not only the fact that drums are highly associated with secular music today, which is why they are profane (in terms of their use in liturgy), but it’s also the fact that there is absolutely no (permitted) tradition of drums in Sacred Church Music. And 20th century (and I suppose 21st century with Popes JPII and Benedict) are clear that the preferred music for Liturgy is Chant and Polyphony (Renaissance being the preferred/specifically mentioned style), and that the tradition of sacred music in the Church is to be carried on. The allowance of “modern” music is not permission to bring secular-style music into the Liturgy - it is to allow modern composers’ music in the style of traditional Church music.

So the question is, what excuse do we modern Catholics have today to not at least try to incorporate Chant and Polyphony into the Liturgy, given the clear preferences of the Church, to present day (excluding Pope Francis, since he has not yet spoken/written about it)?

 

[buc_fan33]

Hi. I don’t have time to respond in great depth. But, let me just say this. I acknowledge, admire, and appreciate the love that many have for sacred music. I personally am not an expert in music, and I don’t pretend to be. I can only speak from my own experience leading young people on retreats. While a few may truly enjoy Gregorian chant, I have found these to be the exceptions, rather than the rule.

Most of my experience with chant and teenagers has been like a slow train wreck. They don’t sing, they lose focus, they talk to their neighbors, they text, they do just about anything but pray. So, I have to ask, why? Because, conversely, I have seen stadiums full of Catholic youth engaged in the liturgy and praying at countless retreats and youth conferences. Part of this is the setting. Part of it is a different preaching style that engages them more. And, I will suggest, part of it is music. That may not be the ideal, but it is the reality. I fear that if as a church we move to a hard and fast policy of chant or polyphony, and only chant or polyphony, sung a capella or with an organ, but absolutely no drums, keyboards, guitars, etcetera, then we will lose an entire generation, which, the reality is, we’re already losing anyway.

Like it or not, these kids are engaged at Steubenville, NCYC, World Youth Day, Youth 2000, whatever you want. The priests who go there are vibrant and engaging, and, believe it or not, orthodox. Liking contemporary P&W music is not the same thing as being liberal and endorsing poor liturgy. Go to this website: steubenvilleconferences.com/youth, click on The Team, and check out some of the priests who will be at these conferences this year. I’m good friends with many of them, and “liberal” is not an adjective I’d use to describe any of them.

And, with respect R_C, I will tell you the bishops are on board. If Archbishop Charles Chaput, for example, wasn’t on board, do you think he would have allowed Steubenville of the Rockies to take place in Denver? Like it or not, the bishop is in charge of the liturgy in his diocese. It is a dangerous mentality that the Catholic right often finds itself in of constantly criticizing and questioning the bishops, the shepherds God Himself has appointed over the Church.

 

[adawgj]

As someone who plays drums. I don’t have a problem with a drum in the liturgy.
It probably depends on the type of drums being used.
For example a rock drum set would probably not be the best choice to go along with an organ or piano in the liturgy.

Also one has to understand the cultural use of a drum. I remember one time at my parish two African nuns visited and played African drums for the music in the liturgy and it was very uplifting and reverent.

Thirdly the role of drums is to keep the other instruments in line with the tune/beat. We don’t just bang and crash cymbals. We have to keep a tempo for every instrument to follow.

Finally, why does nobody take into consideration of who is playing the drums. I know people who play drums in for Mass and they are some of the most orthodox people I know. Their playing probably helps them get closer to God.

PS: Gregorian chant is beautiful and sacred.

 

[adawgj]

Hi. I don’t have time to respond in great depth. But, let me just say this. I acknowledge, admire, and appreciate the love that many have for sacred music. I personally am not an expert in music, and I don’t pretend to be. I can only speak from my own experience leading young people on retreats. While a few may truly enjoy Gregorian chant, I have found these to be the exceptions, rather than the rule.

Most of my experience with chant and teenagers has been like a slow train wreck. They don’t sing, they lose focus, they talk to their neighbors, they text, they do just about anything but pray. So, I have to ask, why? Because, conversely, I have seen stadiums full of Catholic youth engaged in the liturgy and praying at countless retreats and youth conferences. Part of this is the setting. Part of it is a different preaching style that engages them more. And, I will suggest, part of it is music. That may not be the ideal, but it is the reality. I fear that if as a church we move to a hard and fast policy of chant or polyphony, and only chant or polyphony, sung a capella or with an organ, but absolutely no drums, keyboards, guitars, etcetera, then we will lose an entire generation, which, the reality is, we’re already losing anyway.

Like it or not, these kids are engaged at Steubenville, NCYC, World Youth Day, Youth 2000, whatever you want. The priests who go there are vibrant and engaging, and, believe it or not, orthodox. Liking contemporary P&W music is not the same thing as being liberal and endorsing poor liturgy. Go to this website: steubenvilleconferences.com/youth, click on The Team, and check out some of the priests who will be at these conferences this year. I’m good friends with many of them, and “liberal” is not an adjective I’d use to describe any of them.

And, with respect R_C, I will tell you the bishops are on board. If Archbishop Charles Chaput, for example, wasn’t on board, do you think he would have allowed Steubenville of the Rockies to take place in Denver? Like it or not, the bishop is in charge of the liturgy in his diocese. It is a dangerous mentality that the Catholic right often finds itself in of constantly criticizing and questioning the bishops, the shepherds God Himself has appointed over the Church.

Totally agree with you. I’ve been to the Steubenville conferences. (They are supported by the Franciscans.) The music is very reverent and the people playing aren’t your local open mic night punk rock band at the bar. Also the people who do go to these conferences experience the Mass twice and two nights of Eucharistic Adoration. The music used is very uplifting and even used Latin hymns.

I will provide a couple of links of people who have played for the Steubenville conferences.

youtube.com/watch?v=Oc93YOD2QqM&feature=player_detailpage#t=0

youtube.com/watch?v=kgZbP8nddhU&feature=player_detailpage#t=0

youtube.com/watch?v=vzYPAlLNW9Y&feature=player_detailpage#t=0

Oh yeah not to mention that at the conference they encourage confession. And whoa the lines take forever to get to confession.

Oh yeah yeah. Here is the song that was played during Eucharistic adoration. This song helped end my doubts in the faith. Especially with Jesus in the monstrance.
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dy9nwe9_xzw#t=0

 

[graciesings]

Agreed, and I’m 16.

Agreed. I’m 17.

 

[CruceSignati]

Agreed. I’m 17.

Woo hoo! Go Catholic teens! :extrahappy:

 

[Sarabande]

In regard to the original topic and question… That can be hard to answer. I think any instrument, including the voice, can be used inappropriately for mass. I also think if an instrumentalist is talented enough, he/she can find a way to play an instrument with the right level of respect and reverence. That said, some instruments are a little more difficult to achieve that, than others. The style and genre of music can also play into a lot of how the instrument is played. For example, someone who is trained well in voice, will know how to chant and sing polyphony correctly, yet will also have experience and training in singing lieder, hymns, opera, chamber music, folk songs and, yes, even broadway musicals. Each one has a different kind of singing style and energy used. Someone who does not have that kind of training will not do the job correctly, yet too many people try to do it all the same, and it will affect the liturgy and people there either in small or large ways.

It’s the same with instruments. You have to look at the music and the style required to play or sing that music. As music ministers, we have to honestly ask ourselves the question of whether or not the music we are considering will be viewed too much like a secular, performance piece (even with sacred words) or will be viewed as a sacred piece. Will what we do be more of an aid for the liturgy and people or will it become a focal piece (which we don’t want.)? Will where we are situated cause people to think that we are in a performance rather than as music ministers? I have worked in churches where we were required to do a “solo” after communion down from the music stand like we were giving a recital. It was terribly uncomfortable, wrong and represented everything that I was not for. But that was what the priest and the music director wanted and I am at their command and request. And then I would talk to some colleagues who either were not Catholic or no longer practicing Catholic, but work there and talk about the applause they received afterwards, like it was a good thing. No, it wasn’t a good thing, but they don’t know any better.

Unfortunately, there has never been any cut and dried answers to how to ascertain what is appropriate. I wish there were because it would make my job easier and would feel less uncomfortable when asked to sing a piece of music that I personally find too “performance-like”.

Usually, for me, drum sets have been too much of a reminder of the outside, secular music world. And even though I LOVE the sound of the timpani for special events at mass, such as in cathedrals and such, it still smacks a bit of the secular world. I can say this of some of my most favorite vocal classical pieces which were written for mass, so I’m not just saying this about one style or genre of music, either. Unless I’m required to sing them at mass (which I have been), I try to save that kind of music for sacred music concerts.

Anyway, my two cents.

 

[catholictiger]

How can drums help those involved in the Mass to enter more deeply in the sacrificial nature of the Mass? How does playing a beat with the drum set help us enter in? Drums can be used in worship especially when it comes to praise and worship music, but I’m not to sure that it can be used in a way that the liturgy calls for music to be played

 

[HoosMommie]

How can drums help those involved in the Mass to enter more deeply in the sacrificial nature of the Mass? How does playing a beat with the drum set help us enter in? Drums can be used in worship especially when it comes to praise and worship music, but I’m not to sure that it can be used in a way that the liturgy calls for music to be played

Drums are not a regular part of the music in our parish but occasionally the youth will provide music for Mass and drums are included. I have never, ever found the drums to be anything but appropriate and reverent when played at Mass. In fact, they are so unobstrusive that I wouldn’t have known they were being played if I didn’t see them. I see nothing whatsoever profane about drums during Mass.

 

[27lw]

Drums are for dance music. Do you consider the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to be a dance occasion?
Whenever I hear drums at Mass, I desperately want to get up and dance and snap my fingers in a horrible, ironic way. I control myself and I resist the temptation to point out to the musicians that they are ruining Mass.
When you break music down to its most elemental level, you can define every piece of music as a song (melody / lyric oriented), or a dance (rhythmically focused). Dance music does not belong at Mass.
My 2 cents.