Do you think informing atheists about miracles is a good way to convert them?

[pcordero]

Whenever I hear about people giving advice on converting, they always say things like having simple conversations on philosophy. Do you think informng them of scientifically proven miracles like the apparitions of mary, eucharistic miracles, saint miracles, etc. would also be a good idea, or do you think it is something that might be forceful or bad to do?

 

[Tietjen]

Whenever I hear about people giving advice on converting, they always say things like having simple conversations on philosophy. Do you think informng them of scientifically proven miracles like the apparitions of mary, eucharistic miracles, saint miracles, etc. would also be a good idea, or do you think it is something that might be forceful or bad to do?

I don’t think it would be “bad” to do however, I also don’t believe that simply informing them of these miricles will work (generally). You might have a better chance with an Agnostic, but even they may not be convinced by simply being informed.

 

[Hokomai]

It would certainly be a good way of converting me. but don’t try it with rusty stains on old cloth. i will be converted by the sort of miracle only a god could do. Re-growing amputated human limbs, raising thousand-year old cremated remains from the dead, turning water into wine - that sort of thing. The sort of thing only a loving God would do would be persuasive also - ending the pain experienced by innocent animals and children, ending world poverty … The sort of ‘miracles’ you mention are hopelessly unimpressive except to those predisposed to believe. If God is going to intervene in the material world, surely he would do something that would let us know it was him?

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I don’t think it would work. An atheist would most certainly find a way to rationalise it and explain it using pseudo-science as argument, probably by claiming it was some kind of natural phenomenon that can’t be explained yet.

Another thing is, as Hokomai perfectly illustrated above, that people have their ideas of what constitutes a miracle. It should happen exactly as they imagine it and they would expect specific outcomes.

Plus, people tend to forget. The miracle in Fatima was witnessed by thousands of people and that fact seems to be forgotten by many. I can use myself as an example here too: I’ve had a few strange things happen to me that shook me to the core, but with time they faded away and now are just a memory. Human nature I guess.

That is why Jesus never relied on miracles too much in order to get people to have faith. We forget, explain it away or simply don’t care. That is why I don’t think discussing miracles would result in conversions. It might get some people to think and admit there is more to life than they know, who knows.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

I’m a former Catholic, and I’m very knowledgeable on a number of Catholic miracles. There are only a few “good” one’s (Guadalupe, Fatima, Zeitoun, etc); the rest boil down to hearsay, exaggeration, wishful thinking and sometimes even outright lies. Yes, lies. There’s no stopping to what lengths some will go to convert others.

I can’t speak for other atheists, but no, it would not convince me. I know what I experienced that led me to the definitive conclusion that God doesn’t exist. By the way, this isn’t one of those Catholics who went to Mass only at Christmas and Easter. Quite to the contrary, this is a person who went to regular confession, Mass every week, frequent adoration, World Youth Day, prayed novenas, rosaries, read Scripture, read lives of the saints, and so forth. So nothing you reported could ever convince me, as I’m already convinced with what I discovered.

I speculate it won’t convince a large number of atheists. By definition, miracles are personal. If an atheist is going through a hard time, he/she isn’t going to be persuaded by a weird occurrence that happened in France hundreds of years ago.

I would say one benefit of being an atheist is that I can see Catholicism from the outset. To me, there’s nothing different between Catholicism and any other religion. They are all the same ultimately. Just look on these forums. Look at all the bickering. Does that seem godly to you? Can a kingdom divided upon itself, stand (cf. Mark 3:24)? That’s not something I want to be a part of. No, thank you.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I would say one benefit of being an atheist is that I can see Catholicism from the outset. To me, there’s nothing different between Catholicism and any other religion. They are all the same ultimately. Just look on these forums. Look at all the bickering. Does that seem godly to you? Can a kingdom divided upon itself, stand (cf. Mark 3:24)? That’s not something I want to be a part of. No, thank you.

I’m fascinated with how you manage to address your issues on a number of different threads. I’m still convinced you never undestood Catholicism to start with. I hope this lashing out and explaining yourself will help you in some way. God bless.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

I’m fascinated with how you manage to address your issues on a number of different threads. I’m still convinced you never undestood Catholicism to start with. I hope this lashing out and explaining yourself will help you in some way. God bless.

I’m not lashing out. Sincere apologies if my post came across that way.

And yes, I did understand Catholicism, and still do. I’m not here to brag about my expertise, just to put my post into context

 

[choliks]

I would say one benefit of being an atheist is that I can see Catholicism from the outset. To me, there’s nothing different between Catholicism and any other religion. They are all the same ultimately. Just look on these forums. Look at all the bickering. Does that seem godly to you? Can a kingdom divided upon itself, stand (cf. Mark 3:24)? That’s not something I want to be a part of. No, thank you.

I’m not sure if you don’t believe in God or just an angry person. as for the bickering… I guess that’s human nature. Didn’t you fight with your siblings (if you had any), and still loved them no matter what?

I often wonder why people always pin the negative things on God.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

I’m not sure if you don’t believe in God or just an angry person.

I’m not angry at all lol. I hope I don’t come across that way . I’m just convinced in what I believe in, that’s all.

 

[Flyingg]

I can’t speak for other atheists, but no, it would not convince me. I know what I experienced that led me to the definitive conclusion that God doesn’t exist. By the way, this isn’t one of those Catholics who went to Mass only at Christmas and Easter. Quite to the contrary, this is a person who went to regular confession, Mass every week, frequent adoration, World Youth Day, prayed novenas, rosaries, read Scripture, read lives of the saints, and so forth. So nothing you reported could ever convince me, as I’m already convinced with what I discovered.

What do you think of this quote for Neitzche?: ‘’ Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies’’

For the OP, not only atheists don’t believe in Catholic miracles. For an atheist who have lots of reasons to disprove religions and personal gods and categorize them as ancient mythologies, how can this person accept miracles that are not proved yet? I think our existance is a ‘miracle’ which we need to figure it out.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

And yes, I did understand Catholicism, and still do. I’m not here to brag about my expertise, just to put my post into context

No need to apologise. I’m genuinely sorry that you have experienced a lot of pain that has thrown you off like this.

What I meant by you not understanding the faith is that roses and hugs have never been promised to us. There was conflict from the start, within the closest followers of jesus. Of course, you know all of that. But perhaps you have not understood it on a deeper level. Knowing something intellectually is very different from understanding it with your whole being.

To relate this the thread question, Christianity is an encounter with a person, not a set of ideas. That is why we can’t convince non-believers by invoking logic or miracles. It simply doesn’t work like that. It is like being in love. You can describe it, show proof of it but if a person has not experienced it they will never fully understand what you’re talking about.

 

[cerad2]

Whenever I hear about people giving advice on converting, they always say things like having simple conversations on philosophy. Do you think informng them of scientifically proven miracles like the apparitions of mary, eucharistic miracles, saint miracles, etc. would also be a good idea, or do you think it is something that might be forceful or bad to do?

As an atheist, these sorts of things are not overly convincing. And “scientifically proven miracles” is a bit of an oxymoron. And then of course in my case, if you really could demonstrate something like regenerating limbs then you would also have to show aliens didn’t do it.

 

[fide]

Whenever I hear about people giving advice on converting, they always say things like having simple conversations on philosophy. Do you think informng them of scientifically proven miracles like the apparitions of mary, eucharistic miracles, saint miracles, etc. would also be a good idea, or do you think it is something that might be forceful or bad to do?

Miracles to satisfy the demands for “proof” of an unbelieving man will not make him believe. Faith comes through hearing, Scripture says, and that’s the bottom line. The Apostles were sent out after the defining miracle of the Resurrection to preach and to teach and to make disciples - they were not sent out to do more miracles and thereby make scientists.

If faith were by sight, and by proofs, it would not be faith. God by grace enables an interior miracle - the gaining of an interior “seeing” with eyes of faith.

That said, if God has already begun work in an atheist, and if he is beginning to want to respond with faith, maybe documented miracles - such as Lourdes - could help him. But only if the work of faith by grace has begun, even if he is not willing to admit it yet.

Bottom-bottom line: God can do with individuals whatever He wills, for He knows best. All the above comments are merely generalities.

 

[sedonaman]

I’ve heard it said that there are no atheists in foxholes.

 

[Hokomai]

I’ve heard it said that there are no atheists in foxholes.

There is an organisation of that name to prove you wrong.

 

[Flyingg]

I’ve heard it said that there are no atheists in foxholes.

Well at least there is one. Which makes the statement false.

 

[sedonaman]

Well at least there is one. Which makes the statement false.

Had that atheist ever been in a foxhole under fire?

 

[lao_tzu]

Had that atheist ever been in a foxhole under fire?

Atheists in foxholes

There’s a good chance you’ve no idea how offensive you’re being. Please understand you’re calling blooded and decorated war vets unpatriotic, for no better reason than because they don’t believe in your god.

Stop that.

 

[starsmurf]

I’m a former Catholic, and I’m very knowledgeable on a number of Catholic miracles. There are only a few “good” one’s (Guadalupe, Fatima, Zeitoun, etc); the rest boil down to hearsay, exaggeration, wishful thinking and sometimes even outright lies. Yes, lies. There’s no stopping to what lengths some will go to convert others.

I can’t speak for other atheists, but no, it would not convince me. I know what I experienced that led me to the definitive conclusion that God doesn’t exist. By the way, this isn’t one of those Catholics who went to Mass only at Christmas and Easter. Quite to the contrary, this is a person who went to regular confession, Mass every week, frequent adoration, World Youth Day, prayed novenas, rosaries, read Scripture, read lives of the saints, and so forth. So nothing you reported could ever convince me, as I’m already convinced with what I discovered.

I speculate it won’t convince a large number of atheists. By definition, miracles are personal. If an atheist is going through a hard time, he/she isn’t going to be persuaded by a weird occurrence that happened in France hundreds of years ago.

I would say one benefit of being an atheist is that I can see Catholicism from the outset. To me, there’s nothing different between Catholicism and any other religion. They are all the same ultimately. Just look on these forums. Look at all the bickering. Does that seem godly to you? Can a kingdom divided upon itself, stand (cf. Mark 3:24)? That’s not something I want to be a part of. No, thank you.

I agree that arguing about miracles with atheists is a bad idea.

I am interested in your stance on atheism though, as a former atheist myself. One of the things that led me to the Catholic Church was the fact that I was studying science, and therefore had been trained to never say that what I knew/believed was the truth and that was that. As a scientist, if new evidence comes along, I have to be willing to change my views in accordance with that evidence. Take for example the discovery that has just earned three astrophysicists the Nobel Prize in Physics (as I’m an astrophysicist I use this one). When this discovery was first announced, it was discussed in every physics and astronomy department and every observatory in the world. The general consensus was that a mistake had been made, that there would be some other explanation of the dimming of the supernovae. As the results were investigated and new results obtained, it became clear that it was not a mistake, that it was real. The only explanation that fitted the evidence was the acceleration of the expansion of the universe and therefore some form of “anti-gravity” force must exist. It required every astrophysicist to relearn and rethink their ideas on the universe. If something came out tomorrow that showed the subject I’ve been trying to write a thesis on for years was wrong, I must be willing to give that evidence serious consideration and accept it, however personally devestating that would be.

I would hope that if evidence for God’s existence were to come along, perhaps in the form of a miracle for you or someone you know, that you would be willing to re-evaluate the evidence, like a good scientist. I get the feeling that your Catholicism was of a very particular type that perhaps never allowed you to experience the very personal in your former faith.

I fully respect your decision, but I do hope that you are not going to refuse to accept any evidence contrary to what you now believe.

 

[sedonaman]

Atheists in foxholes

There’s a good chance you’ve no idea how offensive you’re being. Please understand you’re calling blooded and decorated war vets unpatriotic, for no better reason than because they don’t believe in your god.

Stop that.

I think you should go back and read my original comment carefully before trying to play the sympathy card.