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ProLifeAction
Guest
You did not answer my question.
Do you think its Morally OK to have Bingo and/or Poker/Blackjack at an Annual Chuch F
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justLaura
Guest
Ok…moderation is only the governing of things that are in themselves not inherently and intrinsically evil. A cookie is not evil. Eating 3,948 cookies tomorrow is neither moderate or sinless.
Murder is inherently and intrinsically evil. Therefore, the rule of moderation does not apply.
Unless you’re taking issue with the catechism itself?
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justLaura
Guest
Well…then I guess the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a hotbed of New Age Teaching, too…
1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: "Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart."72 Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: "Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites."73 In the New Testament it is called “moderation” or “sobriety.” We ought "to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world."74
To live well is nothing other than to love God with all one’s heart, with all one’s soul and with all one’s efforts; from this it comes about that love is kept whole and uncorrupted (through temperance). No misfortune can disturb it (and this is fortitude). It obeys only [God] (and this is justice), and is careful in discerning things, so as not to be surprised by deceit or trickery (and this is prudence).75
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ProLifeAction
Guest
So what is your cutoff point on the cookies? How many do I have to eat for it not to be considered moderation? How many do I have to eat for it to be considered sin?
Would having pre-marital sex one time be a sin or would it be moderation? Would snorting coke one time be a sin or would it be moderation? Would gambling one occasion be a sin or would it be moderation?
Remember, it only takes one time to get an addiction. Just look at my examples above. Therefore, moderation can lead to addiction!
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justLaura
Guest
And there’s where you have taken it to the absurd again.
I can’t tell you where exactly the line is drawn for everyone. That’s the glory of the infinite grace that is a well-developed conscience. A growing high school boy can eat 3 steaks at dinner and not be stuffed, and indeed, may need that much protein. A 86-pound anorexic woman sins by NOT eating enough to be sustained.
There ARE absolutes that cover us all. There are the seven deadly sins. There are the 10 commandments. There are the tenets of the catechism. If you believe that you must follow all these to the letter to avoid sin, then that’s what it takes.
Trying something once does not equal addiciton.
Trying something once MAY equal sin.
The two are not reciprocal.
Even addiction is not sinful if it is not acted upon. Someone may be a sexual addict, yet live a chaste life. It is more difficult for them, but it’s possible than someone who is not tempted that way. A recovering alcoholic will tell you that they are an alcoholic…that never leaves them. And it is through grace and strength of will that they avoid the near occasion of sin. One sip might send them back into the sinful behavior of choosing drink over their responsibilities. One sip for those not addicted is not harmful. Though, it may be illegal.
I can’t tell you where exactly the line is drawn for everyone. That’s the glory of the infinite grace that is a well-developed conscience. A growing high school boy can eat 3 steaks at dinner and not be stuffed, and indeed, may need that much protein. A 86-pound anorexic woman sins by NOT eating enough to be sustained.
There ARE absolutes that cover us all. There are the seven deadly sins. There are the 10 commandments. There are the tenets of the catechism. If you believe that you must follow all these to the letter to avoid sin, then that’s what it takes.
Trying something once does not equal addiciton.
Trying something once MAY equal sin.
The two are not reciprocal.
Even addiction is not sinful if it is not acted upon. Someone may be a sexual addict, yet live a chaste life. It is more difficult for them, but it’s possible than someone who is not tempted that way. A recovering alcoholic will tell you that they are an alcoholic…that never leaves them. And it is through grace and strength of will that they avoid the near occasion of sin. One sip might send them back into the sinful behavior of choosing drink over their responsibilities. One sip for those not addicted is not harmful. Though, it may be illegal.
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ProLifeAction
Guest
but it can & that’s the point. We will have to agree to disagree on this. We are not going to get a resolution out of this.
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IM3RD
Guest
We’re gonna hafta “agree to disagree” on this one, PLA…
I see your argument as akin to saying that the trace amounts of alcohol in O’Douls non-alc beer could send someone down the road to alcoholism. Similarly, I don’t think that the hard-core alcoholics are showing up to weekly mass to sit thru a mass for the sip of Eucharistic wine.
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ProLifeAction
Guest
So your saying you can’t get addicted to Coke by only snorting it once? or Marijuana cannot lead to Coke?We’re gonna hafta “agree to disagree” on this one, PLA…
I see your argument as akin to saying that the trace amounts of alcohol in O’Douls non-alc beer could send someone down the road to alcoholism. Similarly, I don’t think that the hard-core alcoholics are showing up to weekly mass to sit thru a mass for the sip of Eucharistic wine.
Why are we even assuming those gambling (poker, blackjack) in the Church Hall are all gambling for the first time? How would we even know?
Couldn’t the Church come up with a better fundraiser than this anyhow?
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IM3RD
Guest
Not at all. Simply saying that it is more prudent to manage the “rules”, rather than the “exceptions to the rules”. Simply put, of the millions that drink, a very small percentage actually become “alcoholics”. Additionally, marijuana is NOT the “gateway drug”… alcohol is. Alcohol LOWERS inhibitions, marijuana causes paranoia.
I didn’t make that assumption, and am not sure where this came from. My point was simply that a “serious gambler” (problematic, or not) would likely find a “better place” to find ‘action’.
Possibly, but who’s to decide what a “better fundraiser” is? Is “better” what fits best into YOUR personal moral standards regardless of the amount of funds raised for the parish? Or, is “better” what causes the greatest increase in the bottom line of the parish ledger sheet?
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pittsburghjeff
Guest
I grew up in a parish named for St. Frances Cabrini
The bingo was so prominent growing up that it became known around town as St. Frances Casino
I don’t like the idea of raising money off of peoples’ weakness to gamble
The bingo was so prominent growing up that it became known around town as St. Frances Casino
I don’t like the idea of raising money off of peoples’ weakness to gamble
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Paul_W
Guest
We recently hit 100,000 posts. I wonder what percentage of them were from people who didn’t read the question? 
The question, as posed, referred to Bingo, poker and blackjack at an ANNUAL church festival.
As long as the cards aren’t marked, there is nothing immoral with allowing people to gamble for a few hours.
Yes, some people are addicted to gambling. They should not be allowed to participate.
Yes, it’s bad PR and potentially damaging to souls for the parish to have these games of chance every week. But that wasn’t the question.
If you eliminate poker and blackjack from the annual carnival, you don’t solve the compulsive gambler’s problem. He can still get his fix trying to win a stuffed animal on the “big wheel.”
The question, as posed, referred to Bingo, poker and blackjack at an ANNUAL church festival.
As long as the cards aren’t marked, there is nothing immoral with allowing people to gamble for a few hours.
Yes, some people are addicted to gambling. They should not be allowed to participate.
Yes, it’s bad PR and potentially damaging to souls for the parish to have these games of chance every week. But that wasn’t the question.
If you eliminate poker and blackjack from the annual carnival, you don’t solve the compulsive gambler’s problem. He can still get his fix trying to win a stuffed animal on the “big wheel.”
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BayCityRickL
Guest
I objected to parish casino trips which were encouraged in the Sunday bulletin.
I objected because the priest, at the same time, would not allow Bible study groups to be formed in the parish.
That’s a bizarro Church, to me, and I stopped attending.
For more on gambling, look under G at
www.newadvent.org.
The Church’s approval of gambling is kind of murky to me, and its qualified approval of gambling says nothing about a Christian’s proper stewardship.
I think there’s something wrong when Catholics withhold giving to the church but spend money in the beer tent, big six, blackjack, etc. They’d probably say I’m missing the point, but I think they are missing the point.
I objected because the priest, at the same time, would not allow Bible study groups to be formed in the parish.
That’s a bizarro Church, to me, and I stopped attending.
For more on gambling, look under G at
www.newadvent.org.
The Church’s approval of gambling is kind of murky to me, and its qualified approval of gambling says nothing about a Christian’s proper stewardship.
I think there’s something wrong when Catholics withhold giving to the church but spend money in the beer tent, big six, blackjack, etc. They’d probably say I’m missing the point, but I think they are missing the point.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Amen.
The fund-raiser mentality is an insult to God and opposed to stewardship.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
I agree, not just from the stewardship point of view but from the hypocracy point of view.
Some of the same people who think it’s great fun to play casino games in an annual church event argue fiercely against having an actual casino built anywhere near town on the basis that gambling is evil. I don’t have a strong opinion on whether we should have a casino in our town, but I do have a stong opinion on hypocrites who denounce casino gambling but then have a casino night to raise money. It makes one wonder if the real reason they oppose casinos is they don’t want to share their turf. Naaaah, that can’t be… can it?
Alan
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otm
Guest
And where did you study moral theology? New age? That was taught before V2 (moderation, that is).
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otm
Guest
The bottom line is that it is very un “PC”, and becoming more so. One of the ways to control what is going on is to put caps on tha amount spent/ or gambled at a table, per hand. If people by script, and it isn’t being converted back to cash, but useable against donated items at an auction at the end of the evening, much of the “problem” goes away. People have fun, money is raised, and all go home happy. Given that it is once a year, I really come down much harder on the side of personal responsiblity.
But there are better ways to raise funds, see above.
But there are better ways to raise funds, see above.
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RBushlow
Guest
I don’t see why there is any question about it whatsoever.
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Stephen-Maguire
Guest
If your talking about having these in the Church were the Tabernacle is situated, then it’s wrong, but in a private hall not sure, but Jesus did chase the money changers from the Temple.
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puzzleannie
Guest
Iguana is right on. The way parishes should raise money for operating expenses, Catholic education, parish programs, evangelization and charitable outreach is through tithing and stewardship commitment, based on sound catechesis and parish wide commitment to Christian stewardship as a mode of living.
If you are talking about an annual festival as a community building event, with raffles and gambling games for nominal prizes in the spirit of fun, not greed, that is great. If your bingo or fall festival is your major fundraiser, your parish is in big trouble.
In my former diocese, our new bishop proposed a timeline for parishes to remove all such fundraising enterprises on the grounds that they promote the mentality of relying on outsiders, especially the poor, to support parishes instead of on parishioners. He urges we replace them with strong stewardship programs.
If you are talking about an annual festival as a community building event, with raffles and gambling games for nominal prizes in the spirit of fun, not greed, that is great. If your bingo or fall festival is your major fundraiser, your parish is in big trouble.
In my former diocese, our new bishop proposed a timeline for parishes to remove all such fundraising enterprises on the grounds that they promote the mentality of relying on outsiders, especially the poor, to support parishes instead of on parishioners. He urges we replace them with strong stewardship programs.
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Annunciata
Guest
Well said! :clapping:
Annunciata
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