Do you think its time to end the tradtitional forum?

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thechrismyster

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Maybe this forum, the traditional forum, has slowly ground out to its logical and appointed conclusion.

Its become nothing more than a “My Mass is better than your Mass” forum.

The threads here do little more than support a divisive spirit, instead of fostering a spirit of unity between the TLM and NO Masses, this forum is fertile stomping grounds for the demon of confusion and schism to enter Catholic minds. It may in fact be responsible for Catholic hearts to fall away from the Church when constantly presented with ideas that espouse anti-Catholic Views - for instance, the invalidity of the N.O. Mass and Vatican II, The perceived superiority of the TLM, these views, among others, can present a false view and incorrect theology to people who may stumble upon Catholic Answers.

Seeing how many non Catholics come to this board seeking the thoughts of Catholics, and seeing how the traditionalist bend is often times not in line with Catholic doctrine and often completely in line with major recent schisms in the Church, Perhaps it’d be better to form a cohesive Catholic front to those who come to these boards.

This forum was formed to be able to corral all those who needed corralling away from other sections of the CA forums where they were causing trouble. but maybe that was a bad idea? what do you all think?
 
Aside from the divisiveness you note, the other problem I see is that this forum does not distinguish between Catholicism that is in communion with the Church and the teachings of Vatican II, and “Catholicism” that is not. Thus there is the constant presentation of ideas that are not in line with the Church’s teachings and disciplines that are presented as being in line because they are in line with the group that is presenting them who self-identify as Catholic, though in varying degrees of communion with the Church and the Pope. This leads greatly to further confusion and divisiveness and perhaps to people being drawn away from the Church because they make assumptions that people are presenting views of the Church when in fact they are not necessarily so.

While I am not accusing anyone of intentional dishonesty, there are unquestionably those who do not want to acknowledge their actual allegiance so that people can make informed decisions about how much weight and credibility to give statements made by differing posters. There are “traditionalists” here who hold solidly to the Church and just prefer the EF and some or all of the pre-Vatican II traditions, while not opposing Vatican II itself. There are others who consitently want to find Vatican II to be in conflict with previous statements of doctrine but accept the Pope, though possibly with reservations. There are still others who reject that there is a valid Pope. And there are many at different points along the spectrum. Since there is no way to know where someone stands if they don’t self-identify, it is especially difficult for those who don’t have a strong education in doctrine, history, and the “buzzwords” that go with the different groups.

I don’t personally find much constructive use of the forum as it does indeed seem mostly a place to either do the “my Mass is better than yours” or to complain about Vatican II or dispute its validity. Any of those purposes, IMHO, are distractions and unfairly tar some who simply have preferences for the more traditional as being radicals.

I am constantly saddened to see that division occurring among people who claim to follow the Catholic faith and the Prince of Peace. Providing a place to further that division seems counter-productive to the aims of the site.

Peace,
 
I STRONGLY DISAGREE. Yes, there are some who try to present ideas here that do not represent full communion with the Pope. I find it VERY educational to hear these views and then hear the defense that is presented by other members. There is no other comparable source of such current apologetics on these topics. When I am confronted by a “traditional” Catholic who presents some argument for breaking from Rome to one degree or another, and I’m trying to present to a good defense, I often check the Traditional Catholicism forum for discussion of the topic. More often than not, I will find a good expression of the Church’s viewpoint that I can use to help formulate my response.

PLEASE don’t eliminate this forum!!!
 
Yeah, I love this particular forum too. It’s very educational, and I am pleased with the “answers” people get here (though I acknowledge, at times, more charity is needed, but this is the same everywhere).
 
Okay, fine, we can just take up these arguments in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum again. Very few traditionalists I have seen on this forum regard the NO as invalid or are sedevacantists.

I would lay the blame on any division that has been caused by the liturgical reforms on the liturgical reforms themselves. When you alter a liturgy as radically as was done in the 1960’s it’s going to cause division. And ignoring those changes or pretending they are just fine is nowhere near true unity. It’s just ignoring the elephant in the room.

Plus the idea that both liturgies, though valid, are equal is a non-starter. They are too different. The benefit of having the Traditional Catholic sub-forum is that it lets people know what to expect when they enter it. Further, the arguments made on these forums are some of the same arguments being made by legitimate Catholic authors like Dietrich von Hildebrand, Dom Alcuin Reid, and in books published by mainstream publishing houses like Ignatius Press. It doesn’t do anyone any good to ignore or suppress arguments that are taking place in the mainstream Catholic publishing world at large.

God bless.
 
Give it another three to six months, minimum.

In that time, the document clarifying Summorum Pontificum will need to be vetted and discussed, and the excommunications of the SSPX may well be lifted, removing one of the sources on contention.

Also, if some posters cannot tolerate a scholarly critique of their preffered mass, be it OF or EF, they should simply avoid this subforum, not call for its elimination.

These issues are going to move to the forefront of **all **Catholic discussion and debate over the coming years, so it does no good to try to censor these issues today.

When these issues are at the forefront of **all **Catholic discussion and debate, THEN there will be no need for a “Traditional subforum.” These issues will be the topic of every subforum here by then.

Until then, it is essential to keep it.
 
I got an idea :newidea: why don’t people start threads about Traditional praxis and customs? Like the ones started by Ceasar that used to be stickied? Or Reference threads like on the other forums?
 
thechrismyster said:
Maybe this forum, the traditional forum, has slowly ground out to its logical and appointed conclusion.

Its become nothing more than a “My Mass is better than your Mass” forum.
Click to expand...
We’ve got a couple of purely informational threads (requests for Latin Mass times in various parts of the US), one rather odd one tying Popes Martin and Eugene to the sedevacantist theory, a couple on Vatican II and the NO, one philosophical one (a rock so big), one on the SSPX, one poll about parish staffing levels, one asking for personal advice on a NO Mass he disapproves of, one comparing the TLM to the NO, one on the permanent diaconate, one of bowing in the TML, one on Anglicanism and the current conversions.

Whilst there certainly is a “my Mass is better element” that is by no means the only topic of discussion.
 
I also find it curious that the forum has a specific sub-forum for a group that is generally critical of the current (i.e. last 50 years) Church leadership. All of these discussion can had in Apologetics, Liturgy and other sections. Having a seperate sub-forum does create the impression that this sub-set of Catholics has some special imprimatur. Also, while not disagreeing that most traditionalists accept that the NO is both licit and valid, I have heard both that it is illicit and invalid on threads here. I have also heard non-doctrinal positions presented as Church teaching, etc. This must be confusing for newcomers to the Faith and the poorly catechized. I would not suggest limiting discussion on any topic, but the same discussions can be had in the other forums.

Another way to look at it: would should CAF have subforum called Progressiver (or Liberal) Catholicism, or one called Obedient Catholicism (or whatever the main stream Catholics would be called)? Then why have this one?
 
cam100 said:
I STRONGLY DISAGREE. Yes, there are some who try to present ideas here that do not represent full communion with the Pope. I find it VERY educational to hear these views and then hear the defense that is presented by other members. There is no other comparable source of such current apologetics on these topics. When I am confronted by a “traditional” Catholic who presents some argument for breaking from Rome to one degree or another, and I’m trying to present to a good defense, I often check the Traditional Catholicism forum for discussion of the topic. More often than not, I will find a good expression of the Church’s viewpoint that I can use to help formulate my response.

PLEASE don’t eliminate this forum!!!
Click to expand...
I completely agree with this poster’s comments and i will pray that we keep this forum.👍
God bless!
 
TMC said:
Another way to look at it: would should CAF have subforum called Progressiver (or Liberal) Catholicism, or one called Obedient Catholicism (or whatever the main stream Catholics would be called)?
Click to expand...
They should. Best idea I’ve heard all day. 👍
 
If there is division it is, in large part, due to Trad-baiters. Most of the folks on this forum are familiar with them. I have most of them on ignore. They constantly post items that are intended to inflame the average Trad. They interject themselves into discussions with the most controversial (at least to Trads) posts.

Perhaps rather than closing the Traditional Catholic forum, we Trads should stop even responding to such attacks. Put them on ignore, and let’s just enjoy the company of our fellow Trads with discussion that helps our faith to grow.
 
thechrismyster said:
Maybe this forum, the traditional forum, has slowly ground out to its logical and appointed conclusion.

Its become nothing more than a “My Mass is better than your Mass” forum.

The threads here do little more than support a divisive spirit, instead of fostering a spirit of unity between the TLM and NO Masses, this forum is fertile stomping grounds for the demon of confusion and schism to enter Catholic minds. It may in fact be responsible for Catholic hearts to fall away from the Church when constantly presented with ideas that espouse anti-Catholic Views - for instance, the invalidity of the N.O. Mass and Vatican II, The perceived superiority of the TLM, these views, among others, can present a false view and incorrect theology to people who may stumble upon Catholic Answers.

Seeing how many non Catholics come to this board seeking the thoughts of Catholics, and seeing how the traditionalist bend is often times not in line with Catholic doctrine and often completely in line with major recent schisms in the Church, Perhaps it’d be better to form a cohesive Catholic front to those who come to these boards.

This forum was formed to be able to corral all those who needed corralling away from other sections of the CA forums where they were causing trouble. but maybe that was a bad idea? what do you all think?
Click to expand...
This post is nothing more than the manifestation of the hatred you claim to despise. The nature of this topic guarantees the us vs them attitude you describe and begs us to rekindle it once again.

The worst examples you offer (and yes I’ve seen them) are not a reflection of the views of the majority of regular posters here. They are your own assumptions based on your rage over a few select posts.

Your last paragraph is a blatant slap in the face to the majority of those who frequently post here.

Catholicism is a beautiful Faith. Centuries of devotion to this Faith have instilled, in some of us, a love for Catholicism as it was for a very long time.

The Church has seen fit to preserve nearly every traditional devotion that, at face value, is undeniably Catholic. The veneration of relics, the remembrance of saints, the faith in the rewards of indulgences, are but a few examples of what we dare not discard.

But the one thing that would seem to be the most profound display of our Faith, the signature of the Catholic Church if you will, was pushed aside in the spirit of “active participation of the faithful”.

Anyone informed regarding the TLM knows that the Faithful did indeed assist and participate. The TLM is a deliberate expression of the Catholic Faith. The Prayers At The Foot Of The Altar immediately set the tone and direct the focus of the Faithful. It is all about God. The priest humbly ackowledges his own faults and begs permission to dare approach the Altar of God. There is no doubt from then onward for what purpose we have assembled. No ambiguity, no options, just a deliberate and plainly observed manifestation of the Catholic Faith in the Salvation we are offered through every drop of blood and tear Christ shed for us.

If traditionalists are to be frowned upon for holding this level of devotion dear, so be it.
 
I just find it interesting that people spend so much time trying to convert traditional catholics to “catholism” maybe we should focus on all the non catholics and work to seek out and end liturgical abuse?
 
AJV said:
I got an idea :newidea: why don’t people start threads about Traditional praxis and customs? Like the ones started by Ceasar that used to be stickied? Or Reference threads like on the other forums?
Click to expand...
I would like to see more of these types of threads here too. I have started a few threads just asking questions about some of the traditional rites, customs, and practices. I see this forum as being valuable in terms of education. I tend to avoid the threads that disintegrate into arguing over the type of Mass one prefers.
 
old_school said:
I just find it interesting that people spend so much time trying to convert traditional catholics to “catholism” maybe we should focus on all the non catholics and work to seek out and end liturgical abuse?
Click to expand...
I would agree with this, but also add that the same should work both ways. This forum is useful, but many threads are reduced to finger pointing. The trad-baiters are out there, I agree. But there are also some traditionalists that bait right back.

So maybe we shouldn’t do away with this sub-forum. But maybe it should be a sub-ed under a header like “Viewpoints within the Faith” and have a sub for Traditionalists, and maybe some others like Charismatics or Progressives or whatever. That way visitors would know that these are different viewpoints held by Catholics and each would have their place.
 
old_school said:
I just find it interesting that people spend so much time trying to convert traditional catholics to “catholism” maybe we should focus on all the non catholics and work to seek out and end liturgical abuse?
Click to expand...
Sort of like setting up a hot dog cart in front of a five star steakhouse ? 😉
 
I think this forum is important and that it should be retained. At the very least it keeps some very problematic posts in one forum, rather than polluting a great many other forums – particularly the one on liturgy.

It might make sense however to have a disclaimer note at the beginning of the forum – "Our experiences have shown that dialogue in this forum is often of a contentious and misinformed nature so caveat emptor."

The one problem that really should be corrected is the moniker “Traditional Catholic.” It’s often capitalized here as if it’s some sort of separate rite within the Church and it’s not. Nothing wrong with saying traditionally-mind Catholics or perhaps even traditional Catholic, but “Traditional Catholic” sends a message of division and deceit.
 
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