Do You Think Martin Luther is in Heaven?

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Ummm . . . duh . . . of course he is in heaven. And when you type his name from now on can you place a Selah after it in parenthesis like this: “Luther (Selah)”? It is a sign of reverence.😉 Thanks.
 
oat soda:
true, but if it wasn’t luther, someone else would have caused the reformation…
OK, true, but if it wasn’t judas, someone else would have caused the crucifixion…

This proves nothing at all. What’s the point regarding this forum?

The answer is, objectively speaking, NO, he is not in heaven. He revolted against the Church of Christ until the visible end. He also broke a vow he made with Almighty God at his ordination for which there is no visible evidence of repentence.
Subjectively, no one knows nor can they say. So the question is not to be answered subjectively.
God Bless
 
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chrisb:
In nomine Jesu I offer you all peace,

Okay I’m going to be revealing my protestant roots here … the desires of Martin Luther and others who wished to reform the Church.

Peace, Love and Blessings,
There is too much evidence that Luther desired ultimately, not to reform, but to destroy the Church of Christ, including the start of a new competitive religion that taught denial of free will toward salvation.
God Bless
 
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chrisb:
In nomine Jesu I offer you all peace,

Okay I’m going to be revealing my protestant roots here so don’t freak out on me but I’ve read a lot of Martin Luther’s works and I think if he would have seen how the Reformation spun out of control I think he would be very upset. Clearly the Church needed reform, I don’t think anyone in the modern day would deny that but we also need to understand the political factions at work that distorted a lot of the desires of Martin Luther and others who wished to reform the Church.

Peace, Love and Blessings,
He was already upset at the way that Protestantism was spinning out of control during his lifetime. When Luther spoke of Sola Scriptura it was in reference to the fact that he was finding the Roman Catholic Church to be heterodox and moving away from the catholic principle. Sola Scriptura is not the allowance of one’s own interpretation as some wish to lead people to believe but it is a measure in which nothing can supersede or contradict scripture. Luther was quite clear on this… we are not subject to our own interpretations. 2 Pet 1:20

In the Augsburg Confession it is stated:
“… there is nothing here that departs from the Scriptures or the catholic church, or from the Roman Church, in so far as we can tell from its writers. We also confess that the churches among us do not dissent from the catholic church in any article of faith but only set aside a few abuses that are new and were accepted because of corruption of time contrary to the intention of the Cannons.”

Luther himself wrote:
“For it is a perilous and dreadful thing to hear or believe anything against the unanimous testimony, belief and doctrine of the entire holy Christian Church.”

“I did not invent [infant baptism.] It came to me by tradition and I was persuaded by no word of Scripture that it is wrong.”

He further wrote on a different topic:
“We confess also that we disagree with those who invent opinions which have no testimony from any period in the church. As Servetus, Camanus, the Anabaptists, and others have done in our time. We also hold that no dogma that is new in the churches and in conflict with all of antiquity should be accepted.”

He did not want a schism for all eternity, in fact he hated that schism occured at all.
 
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TNT:
There is too much evidence that Luther desired ultimately, not to reform, but to destroy the Church of Christ, including the start of a new competitive religion that taught denial of free will toward salvation.
God Bless
No he did not, he taught that one could choose not to be saved if they so wish.
 
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Shibboleth:
No he did not, he taught that one could choose not to be saved if they so wish.
So then, if I show you sufficient evidence for my accusation that he taught against free will toward salvation, would you:
  1. Deny it nevertheless
  2. Rethink your conversion to Lutheranism
  3. Accept it and continue toward Lutheranism even though he taught a key theology opposed to your own belief?
Before I go on to offer the proof I’ll await your answer.
 
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TNT:
So then, if I show you sufficient evidence for my accusation that he taught against free will toward salvation, would you:
  1. Deny it nevertheless
  2. Rethink your conversion to Lutheranism
  3. Accept it and continue toward Lutheranism even though he taught a key theology opposed to your own belief?
Before I go on to offer the proof I’ll await your answer.
Of Free Will Luther teaches that man’s will has some liberty to choose civil righteousness, and to work things subject to reason. But it has no power, without the Holy Ghost, to work the righteousness of God, that is, spiritual righteousness; since the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, 1 Cor. 2,14; but this righteousness is wrought in the heart when the Holy Ghost is received through the Word. These things are said in as many words by Augustine in his Hypognosticon, Book III: We grant that all men have a free will, free, inasmuch as it has the judgment of reason; not that it is thereby capable, without God, either to begin, or, at least, to complete aught in things pertaining to God, but only in works of this life, whether good or evil. “Good” I call those works which spring from the good in nature, such as, willing to labor in the field, to eat and drink, to have a friend, to clothe oneself, to build a house, to marry a wife, to raise cattle, to learn divers useful arts, or whatsoever good pertains to this life. For all of these things are not without dependence on the providence of God; yea, of Him and through Him they are and have their being. “Evil” I call such works as willing to worship an idol, to commit murder, etc.

They condemn the Pelagians and others, who teach that without the Holy Ghost, by the power of nature alone, we are able to love God above all things; also to do the commandments of God as touching “the substance of the act.” For, although nature is able in a manner to do the outward work, (for it is able to keep the hands from theft and murder,) yet it cannot produce the inward motions, such as the fear of God, trust in God, chastity, patience, etc.

We cannot choose to accept Salvation but we can choose to reject it, this is what is taught by Luther.

The Scriptural doctrine of the freedom of the human will is closely connected with the doctrine of original sin (see Sin, Original). The doctrine of the freedom of the human will after the fall of man must be studied from the viewpoint of original sin. Scripture emphatically declares that man, also after the fall, continues to be a responsible moral agent, who in earthly matters, to some extent, may exercise freedom of will; but it asserts that “natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, . . . neither can he know them” (1 Co. 2:14); that man, by nature, is “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1); that “the carnal mind is enmity against God” (Ro 8:7) and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1 Co 12:3).

Accordingly, Scripture denies to man after the fall and before conversion freedom of will in spiritual matters, and asserts that conversion is accomplished entirely through the Holy Ghost by the Gospel. God “hath saved us, . . . not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace” (2 Ti 1:9); “Turn Thou me, and I shall be turned” (Jer. 31:18).
 
I think Martin Luther is much more complicated a person than we can all see in his actions with the split of the Catholic church. I’m confident that God will assess his life adequately and we’ll all know the answer to this quesion someday. Although, when we do know the answer, it won’t matter much. Hopefully we’ll be too busy praising the Lord non-stop!! Let’s just let history teach us lessons we can apply to our lives now. 🙂

Katie
 
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bengal_fan:
i love that the catholic church won’t even come out and say that some one is in hell, but a faithful catholic will click on a web poll that martin luther is in hell. i just find that ironic. not trying to start a fight, it was just interesting to me.
You will find a lot of imperfect, sinful people in the Catholic Church. 'Taint surprising at all taking original sin into account.

Praise God we have the life-giving, life-sustaining, life-restoring sacraments.
 
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TNT:
I will assume that means you will stay with #1 of my questions.
Considering that my post comes directly from the Augsburg Confession I will find any proof that you present problematic if it done in such a way that I believe that you wish to do it…

We cannot contribute to our own salvation, nor do we choose to be saved least we can boast. If this is what you mean then yes I believe this…

If you are saying that we cannot loose salvation according to Luther. I agree on this also in the fact that God never takes salivation away from us; we can however deny God and this will lead to our damnation.

There is a very real reason why we believe in infant baptism.

“If we are saved all Glory to God, if we are damned it is our own damn fault.”

Now that being said, “If you prove to me that Luther believed that someone cannot choose to deny God and therefore cannot effect their salvation, then I will have to confront fellow Lutherans on this fact and reassess some things.”

So hit me…
 
Shibboleth the problem with (orthodox) Lutheranism is not that it rejects one’s free will to deny God, this is clear. The problem lies in that Lutheranism, as put forth in the Formula of Concord, denies one’s free will to choose God, to cooperate at all in our own salvation. Even though faith is most certainly a gift of grace by God, it does not follow that we have absolutely no part to play in the accepting of this faith, and the increasing of grace.
the pure teachers of the Augsburg Confession have taught and contended that by the fall of our first parents man was so corrupted that in divine things pertaining to our conversion and the salvation of our souls he is by nature blind, that, when the Word of God is preached, he neither does nor can understand it, but regards it as foolishness; also, that he does not of himself draw nigh to God, but is and remains an enemy of God, until he is converted, becomes a believer [is endowed with faith], is regenerated and renewed, by the power of the Holy Ghost through the Word when preached and heard, out of pure grace, *without any cooperation of his own *(Cf. Solid. Declar. IV, sec. v).
That last line is the key to the problems with this doctrine. It is further developed, explaining that we can work absolutely no personal righteousness. If one reads the extensive article in the (old) Catholic Encylopaedia on Justification it explains the subtle differences, and how the Lutheran view destroys the dignity of the person, and replaces his soul–which is inherently good and yet stained by original sin–with such a depraved nature that it is hardly different from the “Evil Substance” of the Manichaeans. This is clearly heretical. Such an extreme doctrine is no longer held by the majority of Lutheran churches. Only those who are really Old Orthodox are adamant in maintaining it.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Scandinavian churches, and the Evangaelische-Lutherische Kirche in Germany, have all gone through a “quiet reformation” in recent centuries towards a more Catholic understanding of Justification. The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification signed a few years ago is testament to this. Some hardcore Confessional Lutherans object to it, however, but they are all anti-ecumenical anyhow.

Early Lutherans primarily relied on St. Augustine’s writings to support their viewpoints, but on the whole they are against Tradition and opposed to Natural Reason. The proposition that one is completely unable to accept faith without the Holy Ghost, before he even has the possibility of receiving grace (before Baptism) doesn’t make sense. This is the logical outcome, however, of Luther’s “Faith Alone” anomaly. In a sense Faith becomes God’s gift to the Elect, to the Predestinate, and the only way it differes from Calvinism is in the fact that one can lose this gift of faith.

I doubt St. Augustine himself would support the Lutheran view that God makes “willing of the unwilling” (Cf. Epitome III, sec. 15). The Catholic Encyclopaedia retorts
With what little right [Lutherans] in defence of their doctrine appeal to St. Augustine, may be seen from the following brief extract from his writings: “He who made you without your doing does not without your action justify you. Without your knowing He made you, with your willing He justifies you, but it is He who justifies, that the justice be not your own” (Serm. clxix, c. xi, n.13).
The differences between the Lutheran view of Free Will and the Catholic are subtle, but profound. This was one of the major points that personally led me away from Lutheranism. It is too passive, and leads one to spiritual sloth.

Insofar as Luther’s personal faults go, yes he was a profound sinner, but he knew this (he referred to himself as a worthless “bag of worms.”) I think he kind of hated himself. He couldn’t deal with his low self-esteem and felt that he was such a terrible sinner he could never please God, and yet he wondered who could ever please God? (hence “faith alone”).

There is no doubt in my mind that he was a few apples short of a full basket. He was still a genuinely devout Christian, however, and he wanted what was best for the Church. He just resented the fact that he had been so alienated by it. The question isn’t whether he is in Heaven or Hell, but whether he is still in Purgatory (what a suprise he must have had when he got there, too!)

If Luther were alive today, he would be a pious Catholic, that’s for sure.
 
I voted “maybe” but that was a mistake, I misread the question and thought it was about Martin Luther King.

Luther, not very likely at all. Even if he had sanctifying grace at the time of his decedency, his sins were so great and so many, leading so many people astray, it has to be worth a few aeons in purgatory.
 
everyone agrees that luther was crazy to some extent. luther initially was a pious God-fearing monk who had some issues with legitimate abuses he saw in the church. so how can we say weather he’s going to hell or not? going to hell requires us to reject God’s grace until death. since he was crazy, he couldn’t be fully culpable for all of his short comings.
 
oat soda:
everyone agrees that luther was crazy to some extent. luther initially was a pious God-fearing monk who had some issues with legitimate abuses he saw in the church. so how can we say weather he’s going to hell or not? going to hell requires us to reject God’s grace until death. since he was crazy, he couldn’t be fully culpable for all of his short comings.
I attended a talk by historian Warren Carroll and someone asked him if Luther repented at the end. Dr. Carroll said that Luther made no statement, but that hedied of a stroke in bed after eating a heavy meal. So, I voted maybe in case he had a few moments. Didn’t he break his vows to marry?
 
If one read the story of the saints and Martin Luther objectively no one would ever make the mistake of making Luther a saint he was not in the same league as Saint Francis, Padre Pio or Mother Teressa.
Luther was a rather ordinary christian who battled with his flesh and lost many times he was obese in later years, a drunk, and cursed like a sailor. But I would admit he loved Christ in his own way.
Thus I can make no judgement if he is in heaven, hell, purgatory (now that would be irnoic?). God is the judge here not I. But even a blind man can see Luther was no saint in the canonial sense.
 
John Higgins:
How 'bout it? Is the ex-Augustinian priest in heaven or not? What do you think?

John
We cannot judge with absolute certainty who is and who isn’t in heaven, except Mary, the Apostles themselves and those declared as saints by the Church.

Gerry 🙂
 
We have to wait to after this life to find out who is there and who is not. May be we will be surprised!

Only God knows the hearts. About Luther, he did a terrible thing when he broke with the catholic church. But he became depressed when he saw all the people that started to be violent, breaking statues and so on.

Only God knows the hearts and only He knows if the excuses for this and that are legal in His eyes.

One of the problems with Luther is that he died without calling for a priest to give him the sacrament of Anointing of the Sick. But we don’t know if he in the minutes before he dyed was sorry for that. We can never know what happens in the minutes before people pass away and that’s why we shall never speculate about who is in Heaven and who is not.

G.Grace
 
Shibboleth wrote:
If you are saying that we cannot loose salvation according to Luther. I agree on this also in the fact that God never takes salivation away from us; we can however deny God and this will lead to our damnation.
Is this what Luther meant when he wrote:

QUOTE: God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner. END QUOTE

Nothing we can do, no sins that we commit, but what we ***believe or fail to believe ***will condemn us?

JMJ Jay
 
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