M
michaelp
Guest
Ummm . . . duh . . . of course he is in heaven. And when you type his name from now on can you place a Selah after it in parenthesis like this: “Luther (Selah)”? It is a sign of reverence.
Thanks.
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OK, true, but if it wasn’t judas, someone else would have caused the crucifixion…true, but if it wasn’t luther, someone else would have caused the reformation…
There is too much evidence that Luther desired ultimately, not to reform, but to destroy the Church of Christ, including the start of a new competitive religion that taught denial of free will toward salvation.In nomine Jesu I offer you all peace,
Okay I’m going to be revealing my protestant roots here … the desires of Martin Luther and others who wished to reform the Church.
Peace, Love and Blessings,
He was already upset at the way that Protestantism was spinning out of control during his lifetime. When Luther spoke of Sola Scriptura it was in reference to the fact that he was finding the Roman Catholic Church to be heterodox and moving away from the catholic principle. Sola Scriptura is not the allowance of one’s own interpretation as some wish to lead people to believe but it is a measure in which nothing can supersede or contradict scripture. Luther was quite clear on this… we are not subject to our own interpretations. 2 Pet 1:20In nomine Jesu I offer you all peace,
Okay I’m going to be revealing my protestant roots here so don’t freak out on me but I’ve read a lot of Martin Luther’s works and I think if he would have seen how the Reformation spun out of control I think he would be very upset. Clearly the Church needed reform, I don’t think anyone in the modern day would deny that but we also need to understand the political factions at work that distorted a lot of the desires of Martin Luther and others who wished to reform the Church.
Peace, Love and Blessings,
No he did not, he taught that one could choose not to be saved if they so wish.There is too much evidence that Luther desired ultimately, not to reform, but to destroy the Church of Christ, including the start of a new competitive religion that taught denial of free will toward salvation.
God Bless
So then, if I show you sufficient evidence for my accusation that he taught against free will toward salvation, would you:No he did not, he taught that one could choose not to be saved if they so wish.
Of Free Will Luther teaches that man’s will has some liberty to choose civil righteousness, and to work things subject to reason. But it has no power, without the Holy Ghost, to work the righteousness of God, that is, spiritual righteousness; since the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, 1 Cor. 2,14; but this righteousness is wrought in the heart when the Holy Ghost is received through the Word. These things are said in as many words by Augustine in his Hypognosticon, Book III: We grant that all men have a free will, free, inasmuch as it has the judgment of reason; not that it is thereby capable, without God, either to begin, or, at least, to complete aught in things pertaining to God, but only in works of this life, whether good or evil. “Good” I call those works which spring from the good in nature, such as, willing to labor in the field, to eat and drink, to have a friend, to clothe oneself, to build a house, to marry a wife, to raise cattle, to learn divers useful arts, or whatsoever good pertains to this life. For all of these things are not without dependence on the providence of God; yea, of Him and through Him they are and have their being. “Evil” I call such works as willing to worship an idol, to commit murder, etc.So then, if I show you sufficient evidence for my accusation that he taught against free will toward salvation, would you:
Before I go on to offer the proof I’ll await your answer.
- Deny it nevertheless
- Rethink your conversion to Lutheranism
- Accept it and continue toward Lutheranism even though he taught a key theology opposed to your own belief?
I will assume that means you will stay with #1 of my questions.Of Free Will Luther teaches …
You will find a lot of imperfect, sinful people in the Catholic Church. 'Taint surprising at all taking original sin into account.i love that the catholic church won’t even come out and say that some one is in hell, but a faithful catholic will click on a web poll that martin luther is in hell. i just find that ironic. not trying to start a fight, it was just interesting to me.
Considering that my post comes directly from the Augsburg Confession I will find any proof that you present problematic if it done in such a way that I believe that you wish to do it…I will assume that means you will stay with #1 of my questions.
That last line is the key to the problems with this doctrine. It is further developed, explaining that we can work absolutely no personal righteousness. If one reads the extensive article in the (old) Catholic Encylopaedia on Justification it explains the subtle differences, and how the Lutheran view destroys the dignity of the person, and replaces his soul–which is inherently good and yet stained by original sin–with such a depraved nature that it is hardly different from the “Evil Substance” of the Manichaeans. This is clearly heretical. Such an extreme doctrine is no longer held by the majority of Lutheran churches. Only those who are really Old Orthodox are adamant in maintaining it.the pure teachers of the Augsburg Confession have taught and contended that by the fall of our first parents man was so corrupted that in divine things pertaining to our conversion and the salvation of our souls he is by nature blind, that, when the Word of God is preached, he neither does nor can understand it, but regards it as foolishness; also, that he does not of himself draw nigh to God, but is and remains an enemy of God, until he is converted, becomes a believer [is endowed with faith], is regenerated and renewed, by the power of the Holy Ghost through the Word when preached and heard, out of pure grace, *without any cooperation of his own *(Cf. Solid. Declar. IV, sec. v).
The differences between the Lutheran view of Free Will and the Catholic are subtle, but profound. This was one of the major points that personally led me away from Lutheranism. It is too passive, and leads one to spiritual sloth.With what little right [Lutherans] in defence of their doctrine appeal to St. Augustine, may be seen from the following brief extract from his writings: “He who made you without your doing does not without your action justify you. Without your knowing He made you, with your willing He justifies you, but it is He who justifies, that the justice be not your own” (Serm. clxix, c. xi, n.13).
I attended a talk by historian Warren Carroll and someone asked him if Luther repented at the end. Dr. Carroll said that Luther made no statement, but that hedied of a stroke in bed after eating a heavy meal. So, I voted maybe in case he had a few moments. Didn’t he break his vows to marry?everyone agrees that luther was crazy to some extent. luther initially was a pious God-fearing monk who had some issues with legitimate abuses he saw in the church. so how can we say weather he’s going to hell or not? going to hell requires us to reject God’s grace until death. since he was crazy, he couldn’t be fully culpable for all of his short comings.
We cannot judge with absolute certainty who is and who isn’t in heaven, except Mary, the Apostles themselves and those declared as saints by the Church.How 'bout it? Is the ex-Augustinian priest in heaven or not? What do you think?
John
Is this what Luther meant when he wrote:If you are saying that we cannot loose salvation according to Luther. I agree on this also in the fact that God never takes salivation away from us; we can however deny God and this will lead to our damnation.