Do you think Mormonism (LDS) is basically a North American religion?

[dianaiad]

I don’t think that the discussion of numbers is that important, since people tend to make similar arguments against the 1 billion+ Catholics, activity level/Mass attendance, whether ex-Catholics are included, etc. Catholicism is true because of its doctrine, not because of the number of people that supposedly believe it.

That doesn’t stop anybody from using any stupid thing they can come up with to discredit a belief system they want to bring down or discredit…and you are quite right.

Please note, however, that I don’t bring up the Catholic problems with attendance and membership numbers unless a Catholic is…unwise enough…to use that argument on us, because you are absolutely right. The number of believers has NOTHING to do with the truth of the belief.

 

[Returning_Home]

That doesn’t stop anybody from using any stupid thing they can come up with to discredit a belief system they want to bring down or discredit…and you are quite right.

Please note, however, that I don’t bring up the Catholic problems with attendance and membership numbers unless a Catholic is…unwise enough…to use that argument on us, because you are absolutely right. The number of believers has NOTHING to do with the truth of the belief.

I agree here; that’s the reason I stick to the fact that no one involved with early Mormonism was credible or of integrity, that the BOM shows evidence of being copied from other works and sources, that the texts should show, if the church’s claims were correct, a high quality of content, and that the church has lies when it suits its own purposes.

 

[SirThomasMore]

]That doesn’t stop anybody from using any stupid thing they can come up with to discredit a belief system they want to bring down or discredit…and you are quite right.

The problem is, the “stupid things” you refer to are all TRUE things…it is the stupidity of those things that prove the CoLDS is false

Please note, however, that I don’t bring up the Catholic problems with attendance and membership numbers unless a Catholic is…unwise enough…to use that argument on us, because you are absolutely right. The number of believers has NOTHING to do with the truth of the belief./

QUOTE]

lol…perhaps…but it is true that the more members you have, the more inactive members you have. As the CoLDS has grown, so has inactivity. That was my point. Atlocal branch a mile from my house, the inactivity is so bad that they can;t become a Ward. They have plenty to become a Ward, but can;t due to inactivity. The Catholic Parish, also a mile from my house, is so active that they have three English Masses and 3 Spanish Masses every Sunday and each one is full. Parking is so hard to find that Dallas Police have to be there every Sunday to direct traffic.

So, yeah…talk to me about inactivity

 

[StevieD]

That doesn’t stop anybody from using any stupid thing they can come up with to discredit a belief system they want to bring down or discredit…and you are quite right.

Please note, however, that I don’t bring up the Catholic problems with attendance and membership numbers unless a Catholic is…unwise enough…to use that argument on us, because you are absolutely right. The number of believers has NOTHING to do with the truth of the belief.

I didn’t bring up the subject of numbers, that was one of your own. She quoted 13.8 million which is the official membership figure which is widely touted and quoted but gives a totally misleading impression. I take it that you accept that the real figure is about 5 million.

 

[StevieD]

Sorry, forgot to mention re LDS numbers that the membership number for one year in the UK is EXACTLY the same as the year before it PLUS the number baptised in the latest year. So…No Mormon dies in the UK (you should move here!), none get excommunicated and none officially resign.
I have my sources - (The LDS admin offices for the UK are about 2 miles from here)

 

[dianaiad]

I didn’t bring up the subject of numbers, that was one of your own. She quoted 13.8 million which is the official membership figure which is widely touted and quoted but gives a totally misleading impression. I take it that you accept that the real figure is about 5 million.

No, the 'real figure" ia about 14 million.

Just as the ‘real figure’ for Catholic membership is about a billion.

Level of activity does not = membership. Membership equals membership, for both of us.

 

[SirThomasMore]

No, the 'real figure" ia about 14 million.

Just as the ‘real figure’ for Catholic membership is about a billion.

Level of activity does not = membership. Membership equals membership, for both of us.

then the LDS Church is in trouble

 

[RebeccaJ]

If “membership” is based on a list of names, I’m counted twice. Once for my Catholic baptism, once for a Mormon one.

Add up all the memberships of people who have belonged in their lives to more than one church, and you’ll have a number that far exceeds the actual count of people.

Being a member of a community that shares the same faith isn’t about having your name on a list. Statistics where people self-identify what religion they are is more accurate. It is also more honest and respectful of people, as it takes into account the dignity each person who can express who they are, rather than viewing people as a coup to be counted.

 

[Returning_Home]

Sorry, forgot to mention re LDS numbers that the membership number for one year in the UK is EXACTLY the same as the year before it PLUS the number baptised in the latest year. So…No Mormon dies in the UK (you should move here!), none get excommunicated and none officially resign.
I have my sources - (The LDS admin offices for the UK are about 2 miles from here)

While funny, that illustrates the fact that rumors have been swirling around the church for years about this. The church seems to count the dead, the inactive, the departed, and those booted from the church among its numbers.

 

[StevieD]

Haven’t the Mormons gone quiet? I wonder why. Their official website excuses their liberty with numbers by saying that “MOST churches use the same basis for the count”. I don’t think most churches assume the inactives survive until they are 110 years old and if some churches, by the LDS’s own admission, use a more accurate measure why doesn’t the only true church in the world use it too?
The voluntary income figure for the UK in 2008 was £33 million in voluntary donations (tithing) and they claimed 180,000 members so that is a mere £183 each. Now estimating that, 60% of the members are children that still comes out at only £458. Now the median income for the UK is around £20,000.
Result - you can reasonably assume therefore that only one quarter of the number quoted by the LDS are active (tithing) and alive in the UK which gives an active membership of around 45,000 of which around 27,000 are adults - a bit different from 180,000.
If this is reflected worldwide, the figure for active adult mormons is about 3.5 million of which 2.1 million are children = 1.4 million adult active mormons.
Tithing provides such information to outsiders, I am surprised they don’t stop it ( well, no I’m not really!)

 

[eddy714]

Certainly it is North American based. It was supposed to have been historically based on tribes her in North American, though now they say those tribes must have been in Cetral or Sounth America.

Whatever the roots, do you feel that Mormonism is basically North American culturally?

This ex-Mormon says so:
"As it has evolved, the Mormon religion is a fully North American invention, and the way it is structured fits the fast-paced type of lifestyle that is fairly typical for most US citizens. Life in Ecuador, and Latin America in general, does not run at that same kind of pace, and does not lend itself well to the sort of frenzied activity that is required by membership in the church. As a result, we as missionaries found ourselves constantly in the position of having to gently (and sometimes not so gently) prod our local converts to action."

YES :yup:

 

[dianaiad]

PS The ‘church’ includes on its rolls all who are ‘living’ and baptised. But if they don’t hear from you, their records office will assume that you will live/have lived until you are 110 years old! (So a substantial number who are on the rolls are in fact dead).

I do hate to break this one to you, but…

the Catholics have the same policy. Unless they have the death records, they will wait for 110 years to assume that a Catholic is dead. Just like the Mormons, though, if there is a death record, the name is moved over. It’s actually a very reasonable cut off date; While there HAVE been some very long lived Mormons…I have quite a few centenarian relatives…I don’t know anybody who has made it past 110.

The real difference is that at least we only count those who actually got baptized–at eight or later. Turns out that Catholics count every child baptized, will he, nill he…and in many nations, that includes all children born in Catholic hospitals, and according to one source (that I haven’t confirmed, and quite frankly have a problem with) the officially Catholic nations of Costa Rica and Malta count ALL infants born there as Catholic unless their parents object.

I need confirmation of that last one; as I said, the source is problematic.

Still, if you were ever baptized Catholic, you will remain that way on Catholic rolls.
Period.

I looked at the membership figures for the UK and also at the figures submitted as income to the Charity Commissioners for the same year. I worked out that if their membership figures were correct (after adjusting them to account for child members) then their tithing members were on average earning less than one third of the median income for the UK - it just doesn’t add up, unless (gasp) they are grossly overstating membership.
This is a minor sect trying to ‘talk up’ its importance.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Considering the Catholic Church has no central record keeping, I wouldn’t even know how it were possible to align every Catholic’s baptism record to their death record. Only in the case where the person was baptized and died in the same parish would this possible. Many parishes don’t have computerized records. So, who is rummaging through baptism records counting people until they are 110? No one. lol.

 

[lax16]

I do hate to break this one to you, but…

the Catholics have the same policy. Unless they have the death records, they will wait for 110 years to assume that a Catholic is dead. Just like the Mormons, though, if there is a death record, the name is moved over. It’s actually a very reasonable cut off date; While there HAVE been some very long lived Mormons…I have quite a few centenarian relatives…I don’t know anybody who has made it past 110.

The real difference is that at least we only count those who actually got baptized–at eight or later. Turns out that Catholics count every child baptized, will he, nill he…and in many nations, that includes all children born in Catholic hospitals, and according to one source (that I haven’t confirmed, and quite frankly have a problem with) the officially Catholic nations of Costa Rica and Malta count ALL infants born there as Catholic unless their parents object.

I need confirmation of that last one; as I said, the source is problematic.

Still, if you were ever baptized Catholic, you will remain that way on Catholic rolls.
Period.

Diana -
I have always wondered something - When Mormons do proxy baptisms for dead non-Mormons, are they considered LDS and added to the rolls? Or is it only those who were baptized while living?

What about families where one parent is LDS, the other is not, and the children might attend some LDS services but choose to put off baptism? Are those kids counted?

Are children before the age of seven (baptism age, right?) counted? Many families here in Utah have several children under the age of seven and I figured they were added to the count as soon as they were born.

If someone leaves the church and asks to be removed from the rolls, are they still counted?

thanks!

 

[StevieD]

I do hate to break this one to you, but…

the Catholics have the same policy. Unless they have the death records, they will wait for 110 years to assume that a Catholic is dead. Just like the Mormons, though, if there is a death record, the name is moved over. It’s actually a very reasonable cut off date; While there HAVE been some very long lived Mormons…I have quite a few centenarian relatives…I don’t know anybody who has made it past 110.

Don’t worry about breaking it to me, I don’t believe a word. ‘Lying for the Lord’, is a known and accepted LDS technique which I have seen many times.
The LDS needs to ‘talk up’ its very low global numbers to impress potential converts, the Universal 2,000 year old Church has no need or inclination to do so.

 

[Returning_Home]

Don’t worry about breaking it to me, I don’t believe a word. ‘Lying for the Lord’, is a known and accepted LDS technique which I have seen many times.
The LDS needs to ‘talk up’ its very low global numbers to impress potential converts, the Universal 2,000 year old Church has no need or inclination to do so.

Agreed. We simply outbreed everyone else.