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What do you think?
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puzzleannie
Guest
question is irrelevant. a matter of doctrine can never be answered meaningfully with a sentence that begins “I think” or “In my opinion”. What does the Church teach? see the Catechism and trust in God’s mercy and justice.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Father Groeschel on EWTN has talked about suicide often. It often is the result of severe depression and despair.
I am not sure if any of his older programs are available on the EWTN website, but it would be worthwhile to watch if available.
I am not sure if any of his older programs are available on the EWTN website, but it would be worthwhile to watch if available.
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TOP
Guest
I like Fr. Groeschel alot and love to watch Sunday Night Live on EWTN. I’ve read “Arise from Darkness”, but don’t recall much of it. I think he’s a Saint.
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kristie_m
Guest
From the CCC:
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
It then goes on to say…
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
I would imagine that many, if not most suicides fall into this last category. I’ve not seen any actual statistics to support this view, but then again, how would one go about getting accurate stats from someone who has already committed suicide?
The concept of diminished responsibility takes it out of the realm of mortal sin.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
It then goes on to say…
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
I would imagine that many, if not most suicides fall into this last category. I’ve not seen any actual statistics to support this view, but then again, how would one go about getting accurate stats from someone who has already committed suicide?
The concept of diminished responsibility takes it out of the realm of mortal sin.
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TOP
Guest
I’ll be honest. I think most do. I know “think” is a dirty word, but we have reason in our faith and that takes thought.
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FickleFreckled
Guest
Only God knows the heart and the mental state of a person who takes their own life. Would He condemn a person who is suffering unbearably who’d reached a point where they’re ready to die to be out of mental or physical anguish? Would you? If your compassion is great enough to understand how a person could do that, at least theoretically, than certainly God’s must be a thousand times greater.
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JRKH
Guest
It’s OK for you to think this so long as you do not “teach” your opinion in a way that might make it seem like a teaching of the church.I’ll be honest. I think most do. I know “think” is a dirty word, but we have reason in our faith and that takes thought.
Puzzleannie said it best IMHO, check the catachism and trust in Gods mercy and justice.
Peace
James
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nlm
Guest
Having worked with the mentally ill for a number of years I can tell you that when they reach the point of suicide,they are no longer accountable for their actions.It was said in a previous post that a human’s natural inclination is towards preserving life not destroying it.That is correct.A good friend ,a Christan man,highly intelligent was mentally ill most of his life.He received all the help and support available.One day he committed suicide.It is impossible for me to believe that God would punish one of His children who was clearly very ill for wanting relief from his pain.So my answer to the question is no, most suicides do not go to hell.We must entrust them to a loving and kind God who sees the heart and the illness and most importantly the reason for their action.God Bless.NLM
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bilop
Guest
I would agree. I’m sure there are many suicides who are so mentally ill that they can not tell right from wrong, some of them may be saved. But, there are many who know what they are doing is wrong and do it anyway (like all types of sinners).I’ll be honest. I think most do. I know “think” is a dirty word, but we have reason in our faith and that takes thought.
Also, you have the issue that even if the suicide itself is not a mortal sin, they would have had to have been free of mortal sin before they died, to avoid hell. Since most people in general likely go to hell (based on Biblical teachings and the revelations of the Saints), it would be a real surprise if most suicides didn’t. Most suicides have likely lost their faith in Christ (if they ever had it) otherwise they wouldn’t have sunk into such dispair, and do not seek out confession before death.
It’s a hard thing to say, and hear, but that’s the way I see it. I think the Church may actually have made a mistake lessening it’s condemnation of suicide. I’m sure many souls were saved over the centuries b/c people thought suicide was automatic damnation. I’m pretty sure it’s not worth losing those souls to comfort the families.
God Bless
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BVM_1221
Guest
No.What do you think?
BTW, here is what the catechism has to say
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2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.
:twocents:
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LilyM
Guest
I like to ponder at times like this the story of St Jean Vianney consoling a woman whose husband had committed suicide by throwing himself off a bridge. He reportedly said something to the effect of “don’t worry, he repented between the bridge and the water!”
So there is great reason to hope for repentance even for for those who know what they are doing, as well as the fact that many if not most suicides would lack the requisite consent due to distress, mental illness or what have you.
So there is great reason to hope for repentance even for for those who know what they are doing, as well as the fact that many if not most suicides would lack the requisite consent due to distress, mental illness or what have you.
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nlm
Guest
I can’t believe I am reading you say that ," most people in general likely go to hell( based on Biblical teachings and the revelation of saints)…" How can you say that most people who die go to hell? Is that what you are saying or am I not reading this correctly?I would agree. I’m sure there are many suicides who are so mentally ill that they can not tell right from wrong, some of them may be saved. But, there are many who know what they are doing is wrong and do it anyway (like all types of sinners).
Also, you have the issue that even if the suicide itself is not a mortal sin, they would have had to have been free of mortal sin before they died, to avoid hell. Since most people in general likely go to hell (based on Biblical teachings and the revelations of the Saints), it would be a real surprise if most suicides didn’t. Most suicides have likely lost their faith in Christ (if they ever had it) otherwise they wouldn’t have sunk into such dispair, and do not seek out confession before death.
It’s a hard thing to say, and hear, but that’s the way I see it. I think the Church may actually have made a mistake lessening it’s condemnation of suicide. I’m sure many souls were saved over the centuries b/c people thought suicide was automatic damnation. I’m pretty sure it’s not worth losing those souls to comfort the families.
God Bless
Then you say that this statement is based on Biblical teachings. May I ask where it says that in the Bible?
Then you say that most suicides have likely lost their faith in Christ.How can you jump to that conclusion? I know at least one VERY devout Christian who committed suicide and NEVER lost faith in his Saviour Jesus Christ.
Perhaps you need to spend some time studying mental illness and you might then be a bit more charitable towards these poor tormented souls. God Bless. NLM
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nlm
Guest
Yes indeed my friend.You understand their plight and their suffering which can be described as nothing less than torture at times. Those who have walked that valley and have recovered tell of horrors beyond comprehension. God indeed does understand I am certain and would NEVER turn His face the other way.Great post.God Bless.NLMOnly God knows the heart and the mental state of a person who takes their own life. Would He condemn a person who is suffering unbearably who’d reached a point where they’re ready to die to be out of mental or physical anguish? Would you? If your compassion is great enough to understand how a person could do that, at least theoretically, than certainly God’s must be a thousand times greater.
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JRKH
Guest
Excuse my butting in, but…I can’t believe I am reading you say that ," most people in general likely go to hell( based on Biblical teachings and the revelation of saints)…" How can you say that most people who die go to hell? Is that what you are saying or am I not reading this correctly?
Then you say that this statement is based on Biblical teachings. May I ask where it says that in the Bible?
One spot in scripture that clearly says most do not make it to heaven is Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Christ clearly taught that many, even most, would be lost. There is no way that we can know the numbers, or how the saved and lost are distributed over time and space. We can only know that following Christ is not simple accent, but rather is a daily journey of, “working out our salvation with fear and trembling”. (Philipians 2:12)
You know one, and that is wonderful. Let us hope that they are indeed with Christ in heaven. However, we cannot know, neither you nor I nor bilop can know on this side of the veil. Bilop has only expressed an opinion. Don’t let this unduly upset you.Then you say that most suicides have likely lost their faith in Christ.How can you jump to that conclusion? I know at least one VERY devout Christian who committed suicide and NEVER lost faith in his Saviour Jesus Christ.
Peace
James
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nlm
Guest
Hello James, Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.It has indeed been of value. Yes, I am familiar with Matthew 7:13-14 and Philipians 2:12, but I guess I want to believe that many will see the Way and make it through the narrow gate.That is my prayer.You are correct when you describe the journey as not being a simple one .The last point is one onto which I clung when my friend did commit suicide.I was so thankful he had never given up on his faith.Once again I cannot argue that only in heaven will we know these things for sure.I think I reacted strongly because of my fairly recent experience with suicide and as we humans do ,I put a face ,my friends face on what I was reading. It made my response perhaps different and a bit stronger than it should have perhaps. Thank you .I hope Bilop will read this . God Bless. NLMExcuse my butting in, but…
One spot in scripture that clearly says most do not make it to heaven is Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Christ clearly taught that many, even most, would be lost. There is no way that we can know the numbers, or how the saved and lost are distributed over time and space. We can only know that following Christ is not simple accent, but rather is a daily journey of, “working out our salvation with fear and trembling”. (Philipians 2:12)
You know one, and that is wonderful. Let us hope that they are indeed with Christ in heaven. However, we cannot know, neither you nor I nor bilop can know on this side of the veil. Bilop has only expressed an opinion. Don’t let this unduly upset you.
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
I’m glad I was able to help.Hello James, Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.It has indeed been of value. Yes, I am familiar with Matthew 7:13-14 and Philipians 2:12, but I guess I want to believe that many will see the Way and make it through the narrow gate.That is my prayer.You are correct when you describe the journey as not being a simple one .The last point is one onto which I clung when my friend did commit suicide.I was so thankful he had never given up on his faith.Once again I cannot argue that only in heaven will we know these things for sure.I think I reacted strongly because of my fairly recent experience with suicide and as we humans do ,I put a face ,my friends face on what I was reading. It made my response perhaps different and a bit stronger than it should have perhaps. Thank you .I hope Bilop will read this . God Bless. NLM
May God have mercy on your friend and may his/her soul rest in peace.
Peace
James
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NPC
Guest
The first thing to say is that we cannot know who will go to hell - we have to trust, as others have said, in the teaching of the Church, which says that we must entrust all the dead to the mercy of God.
To offer my personal thoughts on the matter, however - suicide is not a natural reaction to the day to day struggles of life. Everyone has low points in their life, and approximately one in five people will suffer from depression at some stage. People cope in many different ways - some can work through things by themselves, others will confide in their spouse, a close friend, or their general practicioner. However, suicide is not an instant decision that people take - they have not merely fallen into a depression, but into an abyss, from which they see no escape. I think it is next to impossible for a suicidal person to be in a rational state of mind - on the contrary, I would say that suicide is probably almost always the product of an anguished mind. People in a healthy state of mind simply do not choose death. It is also known that the majority of those who have attempted suicide did not actually want to die - they only wanted to stop the pain: I cannot believe that one who is thinking straight could come to the conclusion that death is the only option for them.
This year, on the Day for Life, the Irish Catholic Bishops decided to focus on the topic of suicide: view the pastoral letter here.
The Irish National Office for Suicide Prevention has some interesting studies and statistics, which might give people more of an insight. Website.
To offer my personal thoughts on the matter, however - suicide is not a natural reaction to the day to day struggles of life. Everyone has low points in their life, and approximately one in five people will suffer from depression at some stage. People cope in many different ways - some can work through things by themselves, others will confide in their spouse, a close friend, or their general practicioner. However, suicide is not an instant decision that people take - they have not merely fallen into a depression, but into an abyss, from which they see no escape. I think it is next to impossible for a suicidal person to be in a rational state of mind - on the contrary, I would say that suicide is probably almost always the product of an anguished mind. People in a healthy state of mind simply do not choose death. It is also known that the majority of those who have attempted suicide did not actually want to die - they only wanted to stop the pain: I cannot believe that one who is thinking straight could come to the conclusion that death is the only option for them.
This year, on the Day for Life, the Irish Catholic Bishops decided to focus on the topic of suicide: view the pastoral letter here.
The Irish National Office for Suicide Prevention has some interesting studies and statistics, which might give people more of an insight. Website.
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TOP
Guest
I think we can all agree that suicide is disordered and given that, mercy abounds, I once read in St. Faustina’s diary the Lord’s conversation with a despairing soul. He comes to the soul, but the soul withdrawls, despairing, feeling unworthy, again, He comes and is rejected, again the same. I think it was 3 times He comes, but numbers can be elusive. Finally, if the soul despairs and continues to reject, He leaves that soul in that state. You would have to think that facing the illuminating light of Truth and Love in Christ before your face, you would reach out to Him, but I think the souls reacts to its nature or state, not it’s mind.
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
Yes.What do you think?
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