Do you think our Catholic church need to get rid of stipends?

[Duesenberg]

“How I long for a poor church for the poor,” said Pope Francis. Let’s follow him. He chooses a small apartment instead of living in Vatican. He chooses a small car instead of limousine that he deserves. Poverty is in the center of the gospel.

• He lives in what’s essentially a hotel inside the Vatican.
• He’s chauffeured wherever he goes. Security alone demands it.
• After the public relations event where he was given a 1984 Renault 4, I have never heard of him actually driving it anywhere.

 

[PoorChurchForThePoor]

This is what you wrote. Now you try to deny it.

Dear Father David, I believe what Little Flower wrote is in essence correct. I just read the website and it still shows the same donation suggestion…

Let’s tone down the tone a little bit .

 

[PoorChurchForThePoor]

My priest once said if he had it his way, he would charge a percentage of the wedding (or quinceanera) cost, all to go to the poor. Some has a fifty dollar wedding, let them pay five bucks. They have a twenty thousand dollar wedding, pay couple of thousand. He wasn’t serious, just tired of seeing people spend money what he considered frivolously.

Not being a priest, I think it’s unfair to link donation to wedding ceremony expenses. Donation is, well, donation. If somebody would spend one million dollars for the wedding, and donate one dollar, let it be so… Just pray to the Holy Spirit and be close to him/her so that we may some day influence and change his/her spirit to a true Christian spirit.

 

[PoorChurchForThePoor]

So tell me then…how much should I be charging for Confessions? I don’t charge anything. But you say that there is a price list. What is the price? What does this list say?

I believe you are a true servant of God, Father. “You received without charge, give without charge,” Mat 10:8.

 

[PoorChurchForThePoor]

It’s funny there some things some people just think they shouldn’t have to pay for.

Mat 10:8 “You received without charge, give without charge.” Outside the church, charge as much as one feels OK.

 

[PoorChurchForThePoor]

My SIL is piecing together a livelihood in music. She gets about 3 times as much from the Protestant churches Sunday services than she would from the Catholics. So the Catholic church is left with a tune-deaf granny playing and she plays for the protestant church.

I believe she’d better continue playing in the Protestant church for her living. Let the granny plays for free in the Catholic Church.

 

[Xantippe]

I believe she’d better continue playing in the Protestant church for her living. Let the granny plays for free in the Catholic Church.

Let everybody suffer from bad music, right?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

My SIL is piecing together a livelihood in music. She gets about 3 times as much from the Protestant churches Sunday services than she would from the Catholics. So the Catholic church is left with a tune-deaf granny playing and she plays for the protestant church.

I believe she’d better continue playing in the Protestant church for her living. Let the granny plays for free in the Catholic Church.

Are you really going to legitimately argue that the Catholic Church has a right to cheat skilled, professional people out of a just wage because they can substitute in someone with functional ability for free?

 

[Xantippe]

Are you really going to legitimately argue that the Catholic Church has a right to cheat skilled, professional people out of a just wage because they can substitute in someone with functional ability for free?

Years ago I was a Peace Corps trainee. During orientation, they told us the joke: “What’s the difference between a Peace Corps Volunteer and a canoe? Canoes tip.”

They were trying to encourage us not to give a bad impression by being cheap.

I think the same principle is in play here–cheaping out can be a bad witness and makes talk of a “living wage” ring pretty hollow.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

Are you really going to legitimately argue that the Catholic Church has a right to cheat skilled, professional people out of a just wage because they can substitute in someone with functional ability for free?

Years ago I was a Peace Corps trainee. During orientation, they told us the joke: “What’s the difference between a Peace Corps Volunteer and a canoe? Canoes tip.”

They were trying to encourage us not to give a bad impression by being cheap.

I think the same principle is in play here–cheaping out can be a bad witness and makes talk of a “living wage” ring pretty hollow.

Oh absolutely.

Vatican and USCCB- Everyone has a right to a living wage

St. Joe’s Everyparish- Well, we want the musicians to volunteer, we want a free website, we want the DRE to be part-time and paid as a secretary, not as an educator. We want the furnace guy to fix it for free and the knights can resurface the parking lot with tar and paint they buy themselves.

Yep. No mixed messages there.

 

[PoorChurchForThePoor]

We want the furnace guy to fix it for free and the knights can resurface the parking lot with tar and paint they buy themselves.

I think the main idea is (1) don’t intend to join the church to make money, except for church employees. (2) give sacraments for free. Tar and paint are not related to sacraments, I presume… (3) I always imagine our early church or a small rural church; can’t we go back to those wonderful days where everybody is treated like real brothers and sisters not as clients or customers.?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

We want the furnace guy to fix it for free and the knights can resurface the parking lot with tar and paint they buy themselves.

I think the main idea is (1) don’t intend to join the church to make money, except for church employees. (2) give sacraments for free. Tar and paint are not needed for sacraments, I presume… (3) I always imagine our early church or a small rural church; can’t we go back to those wonderful days where everybody is treated like real brothers and sisters…?

I think you are operating on pure fantacy.

1. One does not join the church to make money, but that does not give the church a right to try to swindle someone out of an honest wage for the sake of charity.
2. Parking lots must be maintained for the safety of churchgoers at least in my area where we are subject to snow and ice. Dirt lots are very dangerous because they have no drainage.
3. I think your idea of the early church is very, very misunderstood and out of touch with reality. They would live together in a community where everyone made sure needs were met. They also did not function in a time where currency was understood as it is today. Barter and other methods of monetary transaction were real. And a rural church? Are you kidding me? Many loved the church because they knew they could show up, do a good job at whatever and be paid well. Heck, even altar boys used to be given money for serving.

 

[1ke]

You are assuming and going WAY beyond what the website actually says. The website actually uses words “asked” to make a donation and that there is a “suggested” amount for the priest.

That is NOT the same as a stating as a requirement without exception. Parishes will and do work with those unable to pay the suggested amount, it’s a requirement of Church Law.

And these suggested amounts are for people who want to rent out the church and have their wedding as a private event at a time apart from regular masses.

People who do not want to rent the church can be married during mass, weekend or weekday, or in the chapel with just a priest and two witnesses.

 

[midori]

Someone had mentioned stipends for Baptisms. In our parish, it’s the norm to take about 5-10 minutes out of the Sunday Mass and do the Baptism. And then the family will host refreshments in the hall for anyone who cares to come. Since it’s rolled into the Mass, I’ve never seen an expectation for a stipend for that. But I do know people who want to have a Baptism Mass that’s just for them. I would expect there to be a stipend involved— the church gets opened; the priest has to travel about 20-30 miles to get here; etc, etc, etc. It’s outside the normal duties, and it’s polite to give compensation to people who go out of their way for you.

 

[1ke]

Again, mass intention stipends and offerings in the occasion of a sacrament are two different things, canonically speaking.

Our ecclesial province has a guideline regarding sacraments— the suggested offering is $10 for baptisms, $75 for marriages, and $50 for funerals— and that goes to the Works is Charity fund not the parish. Amounts over that suggested amount may go to the priest or deacon celebrant. This isn’t about a private sacrament— this is an offering of thanksgiving on the occasion of the sacrament. Private weddings, baptisms, etc may include fees associated with private use of the church, that’s not an offering.

Mass offerings are suggested at $10. I keep these books and I’ve had mass offering requests come in with no money and with amounts between $5 and $60 for an individual mass. The mass gets said whether there is money or not.

 

[FrDavid96]

Dear Father David, I believe what Little Flower wrote is in essence correct. I just read the website and it still shows the same donation suggestion…

Let’s tone down the tone a little bit .

Then please show me this:

“actual price list—sorry, suggested donation list—for all sacraments”

Where is that price list?

How much does Confession cost (it’s a sacrament)

How much does Anointing of the sick cost (it’s a sacrament)

How much does it cost to receive Communion (it’s a sacrament).

Either there is a “price list for all the sacraments” or there is not.

If you say there is, then please show me where is that list.

I have every right to be upset when someone makes a false accusation that a parish is selling the sacraments by posting a “price list for all the sacraments.”

 

[dlltoms]

Father David, I do not think some people do not know the Catholic word for donation or what a mass card is. Or how it is used. Now if someone has a request for a Mass said for a loved one. It could be sent to a mission parish. That parish could be in a poor neighborhood, Mexico, China, anywhere. How many times have we prayed for persons we have no clue who they are. In poor places that is how we keep a priest there. So think that the Church is at the. Bishops place. What about the Priests that take care of 3-4 churches. There are lots of them. Some people only have the opportunity of Mass on Sundays. And that one Mass is where your Mass is said for your loved one. This is how the so called rich help the poor. And that is what Pope Francis is talking about. Why all of this gripping?

 

[LittleFlower]

Again, I clarified what I meant in further statements.

You keep repeating yourself and keep quoting an unedited post and not the ones following it, where I clarify what I meant.

What exactly do you want me to do? I will not redact the statement because I have clarified them further along in the thread. This allows for other readers further on to follow the gist and see a debate unfold.

And again, if anyone visits that parish website it says clearly, as quoted above, that it is a set contribution amount. The wording chosen is specific—it is not a donation.

Again, I find this to be wrong.

I would suggest that if you cannot move away from my first post, and seek to continually disregard further statements which clarify my initial statement, you PM me so that others can continue the debate. You disregarded my first suggestion of this.

Why?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Again, I clarified what I meant in further statements.

You keep repeating yourself and keep quoting an unedited post and not the ones following it, where I clarify what I meant.

What exactly do you want me to do? I will not redact the statement because I have clarified them further along in the thread. This allows for other readers further on to follow the gist and see a debate unfold.

And again, if anyone visits that parish website it says clearly, as quoted above, that it is a set contribution amount. The wording chosen is specific—it is not a donation.

Again, I find this to be wrong.

I would suggest that if you cannot move away from my first post, and seek to continually disregard further statements which clarify my initial statement, you PM me so that others can continue the debate. You disregarded my first suggestion of this.

Why?

You are clearly mincing words.

“Set contribution amount” and “donation” can be seen to be much the same.

The church needs to be clear about the boundaries it sets.

The charges are NOT for the sacrament itself but for what is called on wedding boards as “pretty pretty princess” days. This is ESPECIALLY true for those who want to use the church and bring their own priest. I mean really? I was very close with a priest friend upon my wedding and he happily con-celebrated.

There are perhaps some cases where a priest is a family member or both parties come from towns so small that their parish could not hold both sides of a large family, but I’m guessing its really rare.

This is CLEARLY a case where people are seeing out this church for the astetics and don’t care one bit about the sacrament.

The fees are a listed expense that one will incur if they want a building. The actual sacrament is totally different and the line item breakdown makes that very clear.

IMO the only thing wrong with this picture is the egregious implication that one can church shop and that money can get you any building you want.

 

[LittleFlower]

I am bowing out of this thread, just like the last one where I raised my dismay on the amounts “set” to get married.