Do you think Protestants should not leave their denomination and rather change it from within?

[Usbek_de_Perse]

The Catholic Church is a very large remnant of the church that Jesus Christ established.

Whether it IS that church is open to serious consideration. However saying it’s so don’t make it so.

The Catholic Church IS THE CHURCH CHRIST ESTABLISHED!!!

 

[Peter_J]

Well, they’re working from the assumption that the Papacy is just a matter of ecclesiastical custom.

I’m pretty convinced by the claim of the Roman Communion that Jesus did establish a “Petrine ministry”–that the Church is fundamentally about communion, and that the Petrine succession is a charism given to the Church to preserve the personal nature of ecclesial communion (God help me, I’m speaking Vatican-speak–also I used communion three times in that long sentence).

Edwin

But what I’m curious about is: why do you believe that it is the Pope of Rome who is the first-ranking bishop?

 

[aicirt]

But what I’m curious about is: why do you believe that it is the Pope of Rome who is the first-ranking bishop?

Why not? “Upon this rock, I shall build my Church.” I know we can get into a maze of thoughts but when it comes right down to it, someone has to lead. So he who is elected is the one who is Pope and gets to lead. He’s the first among firsts.

What do you fear will happen? We’ve been doing it for 2012 years.

When I asked various Protestants who was the head of their church, they could never give an answer. And I’m always left wondering how can they be in a church when they don’t even know who is leading? Okay, Archbishop of Canterbury for the Anglicans. I’m told the Methodists change stands depending on who is elected to its council. One year they for abortion, next year against abortion. That’s suppose to be better?

 

[Peter_J]

I appreciate the effort , aicirt, but I don’t think you can really answer my question (unless of course you’re a mind reader ), which was why Contarini, who’s Episcopalian, believes that the Pope is the first-ranking bishop.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Why not? “Upon this rock, I shall build my Church.” I know we can get into a maze of thoughts but when it comes right down to it, someone has to lead. So he who is elected is the one who is Pope and gets to lead. He’s the first among firsts.

What do you fear will happen? We’ve been doing it for 2012 years.

When I asked various Protestants who was the head of their church, they could never give an answer. And I’m always left wondering how can they be in a church when they don’t even know who is leading? Okay, Archbishop of Canterbury for the Anglicans. I’m told the Methodists change stands depending on who is elected to its council. One year they for abortion, next year against abortion. That’s suppose to be better?

If you add to the equation that Jesus only mentioned “church” once in the Bible, never wrote anything we know of. I’d say it adds significant weight to the debate.

So how much authority does the Pope have? How do you see this change from the first five centurys till today? How does Christianity fit into a world that really has no use for it anymore and certainly no Army to defend it. What will become of Christianity?

Certainly you don’t think Obama cares about Christians do you? He’s spending 2-weeks in July at Bohemian Gardens. They worship a 40-foot Owl their, while they Cross Dress and run around naked while Jimmy Buffett plays Margaritaville These are your world leaders BTW.

Houston… we have a problem.

 

[aicirt]

If you add to the equation that Jesus only mentioned “church” once in the Bible, never wrote anything we know of. I’d say it adds significant weight to the debate.

So how much authority does the Pope have? How do you see this change from the first five centurys till today? How does Christianity fit into a world that really has no use for it anymore and certainly no Army to defend it. What will become of Christianity?

Certainly you don’t think Obama cares about Christians do you? He’s spending 2-weeks in July at Bohemian Gardens. They worship a 40-foot Owl their, while they Cross Dress and run around naked while Jimmy Buffett plays Margaritaville These are your world leaders BTW.

Houston… we have a problem.

We are the Church, and we are its army. There’s always been those who didn’t care about Christians and were willing to kill them for their beliefs. We all know that, right?
Christianity will survive. I’m sure the first Christians asked the same never thinking or even imagining their beliefs would be practiced in 2012.

 

[Contarini]

But what I’m curious about is: why do you believe that it is the Pope of Rome who is the first-ranking bishop?

Because he’s the successor of Peter (and Paul, for that matter) as Irenaeus testifies.

The significance of this connection has greatly developed over the centuries. But the connection is there from very early times.

Edwin

 

[JRKH]

Hi James,
I’m not convnced that this is the fact of our foundation.

Figured you wouldn’t be…

Lutherans accept the early councils. I would contend that it is what happened subsequent to them that the Lutheran reformers complained about. I think the better phrasing of your second question is, where are the Lutheran councils to prevent the swerving from our own doctrines by some who claim to be Lutheran - women’s ordination and the like.

Yup - but you see, my point is that the lack of early councils among the reformers is what set the stage for being unable to have effective councils now.

Perhaps an example, my friend.

Mt 18:15-18 - instructions on how to handle issues that affect the peace of the community.
Acts 15 in it’s entirety - example of the above instruction in action.
John 17:20-21…Rom 15:5-6…1 Cor 1:10…2 Cor 13:11…Php 1:27…1 Pet 3:8
All of these speak to a strong doctrinal unity - not a loose “confesderation”

Well, I can’t speak for other communions, but the Lutheran confessions speak to our issue with the authority of the Bishop of Rome. And I would say that this, even beyond and before the Reformation, is the 600 pd gorilla in the room. IOW, what exactly does Nicea canon 6 mean?

We need to get together and work that out…

And the regard is equally mutual.

Thank you.

Of course, the question is what is the universal Church authority? But beyond that, our confessions clearly confess a desire to remain within that authority, and as a result, we contend that, “…in doctrine and ceremonies nothing has been received on our part against Scripture or the Church Catholic. For it is manifest that we have taken most diligent care that no new and ungodly doctrine should creep into our churches.”
On this basis, and the reality of what the confessions teach, we have no choice but to not agree to disagree, when it comes to doctrine.

Interesting…

Peace
James

 

[Peter_J]

Because he’s the successor of Peter (and Paul, for that matter) as Irenaeus testifies.

Thanks for the info. I didn’t realize St. Irenaeus testified about Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[Cinette]

Technically, in his theology, it would have no direct effect on your justification. However, you are picking on a hyperbolic statement he made in one pastoral letter to a scrupulous friend. Luther made it very clear in many places that a person who had true, justifying faith would not want to sin, would sin only through weakness, and could continually struggle against the works of the flesh.

That was not Luther’s view. He did not believe in “eternal security.” In fact, he explicitly says in the Galatians commentary that a believer who did not continue to struggle against the works of the flesh would eventually lose faith and (unless he repented) would be damned.
*

It’s complicated. Anglicans certainly do not follow Henry VIII–this is a common misconception among Catholics.

The English Reformation was certainly influenced by Luther. However, English Protestants tended to identify more with the “Reformed” camp–which in sixteenth century meant a broad coalition of Protestants who did not follow Luther on all points and who tended to have a broader reform agenda than Luther’s, trying to use Scripture as a sort of law code to reform the Church as a whole instead of simply starting with justification and working from there.

The 39 Articles, the historic BCP, and other classic Anglican formularies reflect a moderate Reformed approach to theology. However, in the late sixteenth century more radically Reformed folks (the “Puritans”) criticized official Anglicanism for not going far enough, and establishment Anglicans began a long process of backing away from Reformed theology and, in many cases, from Protestantism itself.

Edwin*
Thank you Edwin for your exposition. As for me I believe that when Jesus founded the Church he was serious about the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truth and that he KEPT HIS WORD. There was no need for a reformation outside the Church. The Church is both Divine and Human and, as such, needs continued renewal. What we don’t need is to go off and start a new church because history has shown the result: the denominations grow and are watered down. Much of what Luther, Calvin and Zwingli believed is not believed by …18th/19th/20th/21st century denominations. In fact, they must be turning in their graves! Look at what they started!!

Remember Jesus prayed that “We may be One”.

Cinette

 

[Cinette]

Yes, but I don’t think you’re quite getting the problem.

We are talking about a community of baptized Christians. To abandon this community for an alleged “fuller union” with the Church (remember that Vatican II says that Protestants do have an imperfect union with the Church) cannot, in my judgment, be other than a sinful act.

Please explain what you mean that it would be sinfull.

 

[rinnie]

Yes! If my post about “leaving the good old people” was especially maudlin that it only conveyed of a sentimental attachment, then that was my fault.

I have a Lutheran duty to my family and my fellow Lutherans to help them (and myself) become right with God as they have helped me. I also have tremendous obligation to the Lutheran school that my son attends - the majority of the pupils are not christian, and it’s tremendous opportunity to being people closer to Christ.

If by staying in the Lutheran church, I know with certainty I can help one pupil come to Christ. I maintain that I would be “burying my talent” if I abandoned my duty.

Now this I have a problem with, let me explain why. I totally understand the Love and the duty you feel to bring these people to God, trust me, I do.

But if the fullness of the truth were revealed to you, by God, and the Holy Spirit showed you that the RCC was indeed that perfect Church here on earth, what is more important?

Your relationship with others in this world? Or that perfect relationship with our Lord Jesus in the Eucharist?

And would it not be more of a service to bring people to God in the fullness of the truth, by converting to the RCC and being a great example, then staying back out of duty?

See, that is where I believe there comes a time in your life, IF indeed the grace is given to you by God to see that you belong in the RCC, that has to come first.

I can understand not wanting to leave friends, family. people you love, believe me I do. But would not the perfect relationship with Jesus in the Eucharist be more important?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Thanks for the info. I didn’t realize St. Irenaeus testified about Pope Benedict XVI.

Actually he documented the more powerful principality of the church of Rome, of which all should agree. Did you read St Irenaeus books 1-5 “Against Heresies”?

Irenaeus wrote of the necessity for every Church to agree doctrinally with the Church of Rome.

“For to this church on account of her more powerful principality it is necessary that every church should agree (or come together), that is the faithful from everywhere, in which, always, that which is the tradition from the Apostles has been preserved by those who are from everywhere.”

Among the apostolic Churches, only the Church of Rome was so distinguished. It is not impossible that the reason for this was a belief in the primacy of the papal magisterium.

Peace

 

[rinnie]

If you add to the equation that Jesus only mentioned “church” once in the Bible, never wrote anything we know of. I’d say it adds significant weight to the debate.

So how much authority does the Pope have? How do you see this change from the first five centurys till today? How does Christianity fit into a world that really has no use for it anymore and certainly no Army to defend it. What will become of Christianity?

Certainly you don’t think Obama cares about Christians do you? He’s spending 2-weeks in July at Bohemian Gardens. They worship a 40-foot Owl their, while they Cross Dress and run around naked while Jimmy Buffett plays Margaritaville These are your world leaders BTW.

Houston… we have a problem.

Hold on here now, Lets not pick on Jimmy!

 

[AlwaysCurious]

Please explain what you mean that it would be sinfull.

See post #108.

 

[rinnie]

Actually he documented the more powerful principality of the church of Rome, of which all should agree. Did you read St Irenaeus books 1-5 “Against Heresies”?

Irenaeus wrote of the necessity for every Church to agree doctrinally with the Church of Rome.

“For to this church on account of her more powerful principality it is necessary that every church should agree (or come together), that is the faithful from everywhere, in which, always, that which is the tradition from the Apostles has been preserved by those who are from everywhere.”

Among the apostolic Churches, only the Church of Rome was so distinguished. It is not impossible that the reason for this was a belief in the primacy of the papal magisterium.

And yet you will get denial from one end of the earth to another.

It makes no sense to me. The world has to run on One Chief and many Indians.

Look at every structure of any business in this world. You must always have someone who has to have the say or it would never work.

Look at a family. Someone has to take the lead. While I agree that Husband and Wife should respect oneanother and love oneanother it is still the Husband who is to take care of the family.

If Mama says yes and Papa says no, what happens to little Jr. You have a mixed up kid.

Someone still must have authority. When parents disagree on things, they must discuss it and come together. If my Son or Daugher wanted to do something and asked me, I would say what did your Father say? If they said he said no, I would say then its NO. Even if I disagree with him at the time. There must be repect for authority in all aspects of life.

Look at the kids today who had parents who did not agree, and tried to control one another. The kid ends up in trouble, starting with school, no respect for the teacher, then the Law, the usually ends up in prison. All because of rejecting authority.

 

[GaryTaylor]

There’s a terrible lack of historical reading then actual understanding IMHO. Then when finally done this usually becomes interpreted to fit one’s side of the debate historically. There was a reason why all gathered around Rome and I’m convinced it was Divine Providence, in fact its Biblical with the Church and early Christians.

Course the next question would be, "Well Do You Have The Original Language? " Well of course

“Ad hanc ecclesiam propter potentiorem (or potiorem) principalitatem necesse est omnem convenire ecclesiam, hoc est, eos qui sunt undique fideles, in qua semper ab his qaui sunt undique conservata est ea quae est ab apostolis traditio.”

Yea I don’t know how Jimmy Buffett was caught up in that mess. He’s probably the most sane one their.

 

[rinnie]

The Catholic Church is a very large remnant of the church that Jesus Christ established.

Whether it IS that church is open to serious consideration. However saying it’s so don’t make it so.

It is not a matter of us saying it. It is indeed the Church that St Peter started according to the plans of Jesus.

To me it is quite simple. What is the Church that St Peter was head of? The RCC. So how could the RCC not be the one true Church.

And if the RCC is not the one true Church why has the Pope been a leader of it since the time of Christ?

 

[rinnie]

There’s a terrible lack of historical reading then actual understanding IMHO. Then when finally done this usually becomes interpreted to fit one’s side of the debate historically. There was a reason why all gathered around Rome and I’m convinced it was Divine Providence, in fact its Biblical with the Church and early Christians.

Course the next question would be, "Well Do You Have The Original Language? " Well of course

“Ad hanc ecclesiam propter potentiorem (or potiorem) principalitatem necesse est omnem convenire ecclesiam, hoc est, eos qui sunt undique fideles, in qua semper ab his qaui sunt undique conservata est ea quae est ab apostolis traditio.”

Yea I don’t know how Jimmy Buffett was caught up in that mess. He’s probably the most sane one their.

Jimmy being themost sane one there! Now thats a scary thought!

 

[MasterAsia]

Luther would be appalled that there are churches labeled with his name. It’s a label of convenience in this messy world. We are attempting to be followers of Christ first.

Convenience speaks louder than faith.