Do you think Protestants should not leave their denomination and rather change it from within?

[JRKH]

Wow. I see you have identified yourself as an Anglican. Do you live in the USA? Most Anglicans in America identify themselves as Episcopals. Since the Episcopal church is in its last death rattle, it’s highly unlikely it can be salvaged. They have embraced sin wholeheartedly by ordaining active homosexuals/lesbians as Bishops. What is left of the Episcopal church is years of lawsuits regarding real property instead of the ‘real presence’. I have a wonderful friend who lives in Pennsylvania and he never knows from Sunday to Sunday if his church will be open for worship.

It looks as if those who have broken away from the Episcopal church do identify as Anglicans and are aligning themselves with other breakaway believers. I personally lost any hope that Anglicanism as it is known throughout the world would survive with the departure of J.I. Packer.

Realistically, it’s very unlikely that the Episcopal church will survive. What do you do with the likes of John Shelby Spong who denies the virgin birth and even the resurrection of Jesus on the third day? In effect, that’s the same as denying the Deity of Christ. Or the fact that Spong has declared the the Apostle Paul was gay? Once sin is embraced as acceptable conduct, I don’t personally believe that the Risen Savior will bless it. But of course, Jesus may have other plans, yes?

I do admire loyalty. I will pray for you. Everyone needs a church home.

Of course it will survive - in the form of the Anglican Ordinariate recently set up in the Catholic Church…

Peace
James

 

[ForeverGrace]

Of course it will survive - in the form of the Anglican Ordinariate recently set up in the Catholic Church…

Peace
James

Perhaps some, but none that I know of. Too many issues with the Papacy. But I believe everyone needs a church home where there are consistent beliefs and a joyous sense of family/community. I know many Catholic parishners who have that special joy.

 

[aicirt]

Perhaps some, but none that I know of. Too many issues with the Papacy. But I believe everyone needs a church home where there are consistent beliefs and a joyous sense of family/community. I know many Catholic parishners who have that special joy.

What issues do they have with the Papacy? Just curious.

 

[JRKH]

Perhaps some, but none that I know of. Too many issues with the Papacy.

Well - so long as “some” survive - and it has already begun to occur, then “Anglicanism” indeed survives even though the rest disintegrate.

But I believe everyone needs a church home where there are consistent beliefs and a joyous sense of family/community. I know many Catholic parishners who have that special joy.

I would take this a bit further - and say that beliefs must not only be “consistent” but also “True” to the Gospel we received from Christ through His Church.
After all - consistent error is still error…

Peace
James

 

[Contarini]

Surely the answer is that one should remain in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So as long as Protestants believe that our churches are part of the OHCAC, we should remain there. When we believe they aren’t, we shouldn’t.

Now I know that to most folks on this forum, it will seem simple–Protestants aren’t part of the OHCAC, so we should leave.

But according to Catholic teaching, our “ecclesial communities” are imperfectly connected to the OHCAH. So it’s not so simple. Yes, leaving an imperfect union for a perfect one seems obvious. But the problem is that by doing so, we’re cutting ourselves off from those other “imperfectly united” members of the OHCAC. So it’s a Catch-22 for us.

The Vatican seems to recognize this. Pope Benedict does not call for Protestants to leave–he speaks repeatedly of corporate reunion. At the same time, clearly the Church welcomes individuals who do convert. I actually wish that the Pope would speak more clearly on this–I’d love to see a papal document laying out precisely what non-Catholics ought to do to promote unity, because at this point the messages seem confusing.

The only conclusion I can come to, personally, is that I have to find a way to overcome my imperfect union with the OHCAC (and I do believe that my separation from Rome, and my membership in a church that fails to affirm historic Christianity fully, is an imperfection in my union with the OHCAC) while not rejecting the union I have now. I’m still not quite sure how to do this.

Edwin

 

[ForeverGrace]

Well - so long as “some” survive - and it has already begun to occur, then “Anglicanism” indeed survives even though the rest disintegrate.

I would take this a bit further - and say that beliefs must not only be “consistent” but also “True” to the Gospel we received from Christ through His Church.
After all - consistent error is still error…

Peace
James

And I would say that you are a Catholic and what you have said, I expect you to say and believe. Even if I don’t agree, I still respect your faith.

 

[Contarini]

Wow. I see you have identified yourself as an Anglican. Do you live in the USA? Most Anglicans in America identify themselves as Episcopals. Since the Episcopal church is in its last death rattle

Doesn’t look like it to me.

I think this is wishful thinking on your part.

What do you do with the likes of John Shelby Spong who denies the virgin birth and even the resurrection of Jesus on the third day?

Roll our eyes at him, and pray for him, and rejoice that his views are actually pretty rare in TEC.

I’ve been in three parishes now, in three dioceses in widely differing parts of TEC (North Carolina, New Jersey, and Indiana). In none of them did I hear anything like Spong’s views prevailing. One supply priest in New Jersey was a big Teilhard de Chardin fan, but that’s still not Spong territory (to be fair, I went to church just across the diocesan boundary, though it was the closest parish–had I gone to my technical “parish church,” in Spong’s former diocese, I probably would have heard more Spong-like views). My first parish had an Anglo-Catholic/charismatic priest who eventually left the Episcopal Church. My current parish has a Barthian priest whose views on social justice would annoy folks on this forum but who certainly believes in creedal orthodoxy, the need to be saved from our sins by Jesus, etc. (and believes that abortion is sinful).

As for sin being declared “acceptable,” that’s nothing new in the Church as far as I can see. The fact that Christians once owned slaves and burned other Christians at the stake bothers me a lot more than the fact that some priests and bishops live in committed but objectively disordered sexual relationships with the blessing of my particular weird little corner of the Church.

Edwin

 

[JonNC]

I’m an Anglican and know that within our denomination there is much to be improved on. (For instance, I think there is much to be learnt from Catholics regarding a higher view of Mary in response to the verse “…henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.”)

However, I subscribe to the words of Billy Graham “'By all means look for the perfect church, and when you find it, join it. But remember, when you join it, it ceases to be perfect!”

One who seeks the perfect Church will have to wait a very long time (until death) to find it.

Hence the question, do you think there is value instead in staying in your own church and in the words of Mahatma Gandhi “Be the change you want to see”?

Yes, to a point. The point being to change it to what it is supposed to be.
Cases in point;
American Lutherans have tended toward the use of protestant English Bibles, which exclude the deuterocanon. This is in opposition to the practice of the European churches of the Augsburg Confession.
Many local Lutheran parishes still do not offer weekly communion, as is called for by the confessions (Apology of the Augsburg Confession XXIV)

At the outset we must again make the preliminary statement that we 1] do not abolish the Mass, but religiously maintain and defend it.** For among us masses are celebrated every Lord’s Day and on the other festivals, in which the Sacrament is offered to those who wish to use it, after they have been examined and absolved.** And the usual public ceremonies are observed, the series of lessons, of prayers, vestments, and other like things.

As an elder in my parish, I am working on these two examples regularly.

OTOH, I am stricken when I see some trying to change the Church away from what it ought to be. Case in point: the ordination of women in some Lutheran synods.

Jon

 

[TrueLight]

Surely the answer is that one should remain in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So as long as Protestants believe that our churches are part of the OHCAC, we should remain there. When we believe they aren’t, we shouldn’t.

Now I know that to most folks on this forum, it will seem simple–Protestants aren’t part of the OHCAC, so we should leave.

But according to Catholic teaching, our “ecclesial communities” are imperfectly connected to the OHCAH. So it’s not so simple. Yes, leaving an imperfect union for a perfect one seems obvious. But the problem is that by doing so, we’re cutting ourselves off from those other “imperfectly united” members of the OHCAC. So it’s a Catch-22 for us.

The Vatican seems to recognize this. Pope Benedict does not call for Protestants to leave–he speaks repeatedly of corporate reunion. At the same time, clearly the Church welcomes individuals who do convert. I actually wish that the Pope would speak more clearly on this–I’d love to see a papal document laying out precisely what non-Catholics ought to do to promote unity, because at this point the messages seem confusing.

I believe that a lot of things will become more clear as ecumenism is further… clarified.

 

[Porknpie]

So apply the principle right here in your parish…Stay and seek to make the change…
Perhaps you could start a bible study…

Peace
James

I agree. Leaving is what protestants do by definition. 33,000 have started their own churches because they don’t like what the preacher said or taught. They all have their own personal interpretation of the bible. The fullness in truth is in the Catholic church even if the Priest isn’t a great homilist. “The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth”. The Church being Catholic and Singular. :heaven:

 

[ForeverGrace]

“I think this is wishful thinking on your part”.

No, it’s not wishful thinking. I have no desire to see any church who faithfully teaches the gospel die.

I can only report on what I see. I spent 20+ years in the military and I have Anglican/Episcopal friends everywhere. They all agree that the Episcopal side of the house will surely die.

I’ve been following the civil trials of Episcopals suing each other for church property. Sad. But what really got my attention some years back, was St. John the Divine allowing their Cathedral altar to be used by Elton John so he could degrade it by the nonsense that went on there. I don’t believe that the clergy knew it would descend into an orgy of sex and depravity, but you have to wonder, given what we all know, why they would allow such a thing at all. Elton John has the wherewithall to rent a stadium for his birthday bash, but he chose the largest Cathedral of the American Episcopal Church.

I would much rather see TEC survive and reclaim the teachings of the scriptures instead of “Don’t believe that ****? We don’t either.”

 

[ForeverGrace]

I agree. Leaving is what protestants do by definition. 33,000 have started their own churches because they don’t like what the preacher said or taught. They all have their own personal interpretation of the bible. The fullness in truth is in the Catholic church even if the Priest isn’t a great homilist. “The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth”. Singular. :heaven:

Would you be so kind as to prove this statement? Please give the source, its date and any other information you have so you can substantiate the truth of it.

Thanks.

God Bless

 

[SaintPatrick333]

Yes, I do.

I would say no because Christ calls us all to unity. He gave us the Catholic Church it makes perfect sense He calls us all to it.

 

[Contarini]

“I think this is wishful thinking on your part”.

No, it’s not wishful thinking. I have no desire to see any church who faithfully teaches the gospel die.

I can only report on what I see. I spent 20+ years in the military and I have Anglican/Episcopal friends everywhere. They all agree that the Episcopal side of the house will surely die.

Well, then all I can say is that your friends represent a narrow spectrum of opinion.

I think it’s extremely likely that the Episcopal Church will cease to exist any time in the next century or so. It’s certainly not facing imminent demise. It may eventually merge with another denomination, but the present course doesn’t point that way. The present governing ideology of TEC is an aggressive defense of TEC’s existence as a “Church” (a concept I find theologically incoherent, myself).

TEC is in most trouble in conservative areas. This is deeply unfair, in a way, because of course the dioceses in these areas are the more conservative ones. My diocese is struggling, though we’re certainly very much alive.

There are a significant number of people who are drawn to TEC, either in spite of or because of recent events. For TEC to die this influx would have to end. I see no signs of it ending. The belief that TEC is dying is simply unrealistic.

The fact that all kinds of stuff you don’t like (or for that matter that I don’t like, though I know nothing about what Elton John did or didn’t do at St. John the Divine) happens in TEC does not mean that it’s dying.

Perhaps you mean “spiritually dying”–i.e., ceasing to be what you’d consider a recognizable Christian church. Since I don’t know your standards, that may be true–we may already be dead.

But by my standards, I don’t think that will happen either. The younger members of TEC tend not to be in the Spong camp–they tend, in my experience, to be interested in orthodox, liturgical Christianity with a “progressive” social bent.

Edwin

 

[dcointin]

In my experience it just isn’t possible. I’ve seen many very good people try and fail. The reason is that the institution is outside of any one person’s control, and even its head wouldn’t be able to radically change it for the better.

 

[ForeverGrace]

Edwin,

I sincerely hope you are correct. I’d certainly not want to see the kind of things my friends have seen continue. My best friend Lilian says it’s like losing your parents to Jim Jones.

Since I’m very conservative, most of my friends are too, so it is safe to assume that their parishes are deeply affected.

Prayers for all concerned.

 

[Nicea325]

Would you be so kind as to prove this statement? Please give the source, its date and any other information you have so you can substantiate the truth of it.

Thanks.

God Bless

World Christian Encyclopedia, 2004, a Protestant publication.

 

[JRKH]

Surely the answer is that one should remain in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So as long as Protestants believe that our churches are part of the OHCAC, we should remain there. When we believe they aren’t, we shouldn’t.

Now I know that to most folks on this forum, it will seem simple–Protestants aren’t part of the OHCAC, so we should leave.

But according to Catholic teaching, our “ecclesial communities” are imperfectly connected to the OHCAH. So it’s not so simple. Yes, leaving an imperfect union for a perfect one seems obvious. But the problem is that by doing so, we’re cutting ourselves off from those other “imperfectly united” members of the OHCAC. So it’s a Catch-22 for us.

The Vatican seems to recognize this. Pope Benedict does not call for Protestants to leave–he speaks repeatedly of corporate reunion. At the same time, clearly the Church welcomes individuals who do convert. I actually wish that the Pope would speak more clearly on this–I’d love to see a papal document laying out precisely what non-Catholics ought to do to promote unity, because at this point the messages seem confusing.

The only conclusion I can come to, personally, is that I have to find a way to overcome my imperfect union with the OHCAC (and I do believe that my separation from Rome, and my membership in a church that fails to affirm historic Christianity fully, is an imperfection in my union with the OHCAC) while not rejecting the union I have now. I’m still not quite sure how to do this.

Edwin

The reason the Church takes this approach, I believe, is fairly simple…While individual “conversions” are wonderful and surely welcome, by working with the wider “corporate” groups and leadership, various issues can be addressed and larger numbers of people can be brought closer to the Church at once.
It makes good sense and really is a more biblical approach - similar to what we see in Acts 15 where two groups were developing parallel to each other but then came into conflict. The hierarchy of each side became involved.
Of course now it is much more complicated with the protestant communions.

As to suggestions…The only one that I can offer to any protestant is to seek, within their community, to engage the full meaning of unity as described in the NT. Seek council, one with the other in order to settle doctrinal disputes. Get your elders to meet face to face, prayerfully to determine what is the true Gospel since it is obvious that these differing and conflicting doctrines can’t ALL be right.
Of course when the various communions reject the idea of a universal council of all reformed churches (protestant) - you are more than welcome come on home on your own.

Peace
James

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Would you be so kind as to prove this statement? Please give the source, its date and any other information you have so you can substantiate the truth of it.

Thanks.

God Bless

Hi, I just noticed your question here and wanted to share this link which I wish I had seen years prior to my conversion to Catholicism. I would have converted much earlier if I had seen this. May God bless your day and your journey to the truth. The link is just historical fact. Christ founded the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in great love, so that “all may be one.”
In Christ’s Love
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

youtube.com/watch?v=VN5f-EWPTP4

 

[ForeverGrace]

World Christian Encyclopedia, 2004, a Protestant publication.

Page number.??? I’m sure you know where I’m heading. Do you want to tell people how this source counted the denominations and how many catholic ‘denominations’ that are listed? I have it right in front of me.

If you want to use one source to effectively trash protestants, it seems to be a fair assertion, that the same source be used to show the results of how catholics were counted? Yes?

Is this really how you want to source accusations?

Unsound Sticks, or, Arguments Catholics Shouldn’t Use
pugiofidei.com/unsound.htm