Do you think radical pro-abortionists are possessed?

[Mystic_Warrior]

i have read books on demonic possession and the authors write about this condition called “perfect possession” wherein the person is so possessed that there is no longer any struggle whatsoever between good and evil going on in his/her soul/mind/heart. These are supposed to be basically immune to exorcism. In exorcisms of those who are NOT perfectly possessed, the devil has spoken about this and says that these people are “too far gone”. Yes, the devil lies, but during an exorcism, he is very often compelled to tell the truth, even against his strongest inclinations…

“perfect possession” is the theory that the individual is no longer able to function as an individual and cannot be brought back from their condition. Both Father Martin and Father Amorth have spoken of people that they attempted to help but couldn’t totally deliver and I’m not 100% sure it’s an accurate term. Those people are not redeemable because their own free will to allow the Devil to influence their life and not because of the Devil’s power. There’s a difference.

We have to understand that, even though great exorcists like Father Amorth give terminology to phases and conditions of individuals under demonic influence, that terminology is not infallible. It’s simply the best formula that we have to go on. Even the exorcism ritual is a guideline - 3 different sections - that the exorcist is free to choose from.

anyway, I feel that many pro-abortionists are perfectly possessed.

I mean: How could a person possibly condone something SO hideous unless that were the case??

First, you don’t know that. A lot of time, energy and research goes into “diagnosing” possession. It’s not as easy as saying that a person is a murderer and thus must be possessed. That’s simply not true. Truly, the only way to know for sure is to perform the exorcism (as Father Amorth points out).

Even so, i will continue to pray rosaries over pro-abortionists… can’t hurt…

As well you should and I should. Remember this, if we think we see demons in every corner we will. Don’t do that. Life is complicated enough.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

beckycmarie;

This is your opinion, and quite frankly insulting.

You’re no more an expert on this subject than I am.

Malachi Martin was an expert and a consultant to three Popes.

I think it is you, who needs to stop attacking the man and anyone who accepts what he wrote and taught. Heck, you might as well attack the Catholic Church, because the Church accepted his expertise.

Jim

This has certainly been hashed and re-hashed in the forums here with those who support and those who condemn the man. I support the man. We’ve had a few threads on this subject. Let’s say that there are good people on both sides of the fence.

And make sure we remember (all of us) that the subject of exorcism is something that tends to draw us away from unity because there isn’t enough infallibility to go on and maybe we’ll never have all the answers. I certainly continue to learn more every day and can never get to a point where exorcism is an open and shut formula. Theories that I thought were true turned out to be false.

Let’s not turn on each other. Disagree on doctrines - fine. But let us not cast stones. I do not say this to you, Jim, personally or to Becky. I say this for us all collectively as Christians and fighters of evil and just quoted your post because it was the last one.

Peace…

MW

 

[Joysong]

JimR-OCDS:

Well, Malachi Martin was an exorcist priest for 30 years, and he was used as a consultant by exorcist priest in the Roman Catholic Church, until his death.

The late Father Malachi Martin was a renown exorcist and Jesuit, a one-time advisor to three Popes, and best-selling author.

The research I did on this ex-priest has so many red flags that I am astounded you overlooked them, Jim. I’m going to side with Becky as to your imprudence in citing Fr. Martin as an authority on exorcism. It is possible you did not google adequately and unwaringly hold him in esteem. Rather than give him undue notoriety, his scandalous writings are best left in the dark where they belong.

I have not seen the names of the alleged three popes, nor have you exposed his written antipathy towards Vatican II, which in itself is a red flag. Why would a priest leave his ordained ministry specifically to write books that undermine the Church and alarm the faithful. Methinks he saw too many demons …

Concerning the allegations about churchmen found in Windswept House under the guise of fiction, they would certainly be sad if true, and other sources have suggested the basic factualness of some of the accounts. However, even if they were based on fact the Church is in no more danger of being overcome by the gates of hell today than it was during any of the other crises of history. Jesus had his Judas and history shows that His Mystical Body has had its share, as well. To deny the past and present Judases within the Church would be wrong. However, to act as if it made any difference to our obligations of obedience would be to take scandal (called passive scandal) from those who are giving scandal. Jesus warns us about those who would give scandal to his little ones (Mt. 18:6) and thereby sought by that warning to provide an antidote for passive scandal, as well. In his Summa Theologiae St. Thomas Aquinas tells us, … continued here

 

[RubyT]

i have read books on demonic possession and the authors write about this condition called “perfect possession” wherein the person is so possessed that there is no longer any struggle whatsoever between good and evil going on in his/her soul/mind/heart. These are supposed to be basically immune to exorcism. In exorcisms of those who are NOT perfectly possessed, the devil has spoken about this and says that these people are “too far gone”. Yes, the devil lies, but during an exorcism, he is very often compelled to tell the truth, even against his strongest inclinations…

anyway, I feel that many pro-abortionists are perfectly possessed.

I mean: How could a person possibly condone something SO hideous unless that were the case??

Even so, i will continue to pray rosaries over pro-abortionists… can’t hurt…

I don’t think pro-choice people are intrinsically evil or possessed.
I think they are just ignorant. So sad.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Joysong;

The research I did on this ex-priest has so many red flags that I am astounded you overlooked them, Jim. I’m going to side with Becky as to your imprudence in citing Fr. Martin as an authority on exorcism. It is possible you did not google adequately and innocently hold him in esteem. Rather than give him undue notoriety, his scandalous writings are best left in the dark where they belong.

His credentials and expertise on exorcism are unquestionable. As I mentioned in another thread. The exorcist priest of the Archdioceses of New York, was on EWTN and stated that he consulted with Malachi Martin, and that his book, “Hostage to the Devil,” is very accurate.

I have not seen the names of the alleged three popes, nor have you exposed his written antipathy towards Vatican II, which in itself is a red flag.

I’m just going by the bio-that is at the link I provided. It matches the other links on his bio.

As for his books, “The Keys of the Blood,” was about the Church’s fight against Communism, and those inside the Church who were in bed with the Communist. Although fiction, it is a fact, that there were members of the Catholic Church, including Bishops, who were in bed with the Communist parties in South America and Italy. Heck, they’re the one’s who were using Liberation Theology, to justify their positions.

Why would a priest leave his ordained ministry specifically to write books that undermine the Church and alarm the faithful. Methinks he saw too many demons.

He didn’t leave his ministry to write books, but because he was burnt out from serving the Church in the capacity he did. However, even after he left his ministry, he was still a priest and said Mass everyday. The Church continued to use Malachi Martin for consultation.

In 1964, Pope Paul VI released Father Martin from the vows of Poverty and Obedience in the Jesuit Order, but confirmed his vow of Celibacy. Pope Paul instructed Father Martin to report directly to the reigning Holy Father whoever he may be, or to some member of the papal Curia the reigning Pope designates. Because he is not affiliated with any diocese, Father does not wear clerical clothes in public. He celebrates Holy Mass daily. As a concerned, compassionate priest and enlightened scholar, Malachi Martin dares hold a candle to the truth, no matter where it shines or how difficult it mat be to accept. Father is forthrightly devoted to prayer, the Church and Our Lady of Guadalupe (“She’s my favorite!”), Saint Michael and the Holy Angels and Saints. He researches and writes from his creative base of operations in New York City, and is currently at work on a "Guide Book to the End Times. starharbor.com/fr_martin/index1.html

Also, his books don’t undermined the Church per se, but give a picture of some of the dirty politics involved, which many Catholics would just as soon turn a blind eye towards.

I don’t think my defense of Fr Martin’s expertise on exorcism and demonic possession, calls for accusations that my soul is in danger and that I’m leading other souls into danger.

I’m surprised that a spiritually mature person, would support such non-sense.

Jim

 

[Joysong]

I don’t think my defense of Fr Martin’s expertise on exorcism and demonic possession, calls for accusations that my soul is in danger and that I’m leading other souls into danger.

I’m surprised that a spiritually mature person, would support such non-sense.

Are you speaking to me, Jim, or to Becky, or both? To me? … because I said I support her position that his writings are dangerous? If your “surprise” was directed to me, may I also express my surprise that in your “spiritual maturity” you have given blind acceptance to this person without doing research.

Much as I dislike giving him notoriety, this example of his book is deplorable, even if it isn’t factual. It plants a terrible seed in the innocent reader’s heart.

tldm.org/news/martin.htm

These allegations have largely gone unnoticed, possibly because he was so crafty in his descriptions that he might even have been referring to the coronation of Pope Paul VI. But he revealed much more about this alleged ritual in one of his last works, Windswept House: A Vatican Novel (1996). In this story, he vividly described a ceremony called “The Enthronement of the Fallen Archangel Lucifer” supposedly held in St. Paul’s Chapel in the Vatican, but linked with concurrent satanic rites here in the U.S., on June 29, 1963, barely a week after the election of Paul VI. In the novel, before he dies, a pope leaves a secret account of the situation on his desk for the next occupant of the throne of Peter, a thinly-disguised John Paul II.

According to The New American, Martin confirmed that the ceremony did indeed occur as he had described. “Oh yes, it is true; very much so,” the magazine reported he said. “But the only way I could put that down into print is in novelistic form.”

I see no value whatsoever in bringing up his “expertise,” because you could have easily commented to the OP without the said reference to this exorcist. Part of me wonders why you brought him up at all.

As for his release of vows, the link above had this to say:

Released afterwards from his vows of poverty and obedience at his own request (but still a priest), he ultimately moved to New York and became a best-selling writer of fiction and non-fiction.

And this from Wikipedia:

The leaving of the order and the priesthood has been explained by Martin’s growing dissatisfaction with the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, but others argue that his traditionalist bent only came later and that he sought the release to pursue a literary career.

Well, this is enough for me to not want any part of quoting him as an expert and friend of the Vatican.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Joysong

Are you speaking to me, Jim, or to Becky, or both? To me? … because I said I support her position that his writings are dangerous?

Becky said my soul was in danger and I was leading other souls into danger, by posting Malachi Martin’s teachings on exorcism.

BTW, your link doesn’t provide who wrote the article, or if it did, I happened to miss it.

However, it treats Martins book, “Windswept House,” as a novel instead of fiction, which it actually is.

But thats besides the point. I only referenced Malachi Martin, in his expertise of exorcism and demonic possession. He was in fact an expert in the Catholic Church on this issue.

I can understand if you disagree with what he wrote in other books, but I was only addressing the points on exorcism and demonic possession, which this thread is about.

Also, Martin writings on exorcism and demonic possession, are in line with the writings I’ve read by Fr. Amorth, the Vatican exorcist priest, except that Fr. Amorth accepts the visions at Medjegore as legit. Martin rejected Medjegore as a Satanic hoax.

I think its false and uncharitable to claim in this forum, that a person, namely me, who accepts his writing on exorcism as legit, as being in spiritual danger and leading others to into danger.

I mean come on, this is nonsense.

Jim

 

[Joysong]

Well, I suppose if we considered Fr. Martin’s writings as purely fictional, it is nonetheless in extremely poor taste and lacking in prudence to plant in the minds of his readers that the Vatican held a satanic ceremony enthroning Lucifer. What kind of priest does this? And what kind of priest begs release from his vows and ministry when this is not a matter of ill health, retirement, marriage, or other such reason as I’ve seen? What kind of priest writes dissenting views of the Vatican II Council? The only ones I came to know about are in schism.

Our faith forbids me to judge him, but to tell you the truth, as I examine his deeds and words, I have no choice but to think he is not Spirit-led, and I would never recommend him as a source person with bona-fide credentials. We may need to disagree on this one, Jim.

Another ex-priest comes to mind that had a powerful deliverance and healing ministry and he left to marry. But I NEVER saw a thing written by him that does not fully support the Church. I should review his chapter on exorcism and compare with what Fr. Martin had to say in your quote about “perfect possession,” and being totally lost. Not even the Church will state with certainty that anyone is in hell, so how can Fr. Martin be so sure? In that respect, yes … I agree with Becky that there was no reason to plant that seed here in order to answer the OP, who is struggling already with her own erroneous perceptions of redemption.

 

[distracted]

The concept of perfect possession is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. I believe it was an invention of Malachi Martin.

When a person is possessed, it is his body, not his will that is controlled by Satan. A possessed person still has free will.

i never said he didn’t…

God Himself doesn’t interfere with free will, why would He allow demons to have access to someone’s free will?

again, i never said that…

When it comes to diagnosing someone as possessed, that needs to be left to exorcists, period. We shouldn’t speculate about someone’s being possessed.

i think it is good to so speculate so as to know what one is up against… so as to know how to proceed… i have tried to argue with people who are unChristian… & i got nowhere until i realized the person was under demonic attack (etc, etc…)

You are correct that the devil lies, but the “too far gone” theme is common in exorcisms.

the demon said this about another person, during an exorcism… not the person being exorcised.

The demons want to discourage the exorcist from continuing. In many true accounts of exorcisms, you’ll find demons claiming they will never leave, the person belongs to them, etc. etc. In fact, I imagine this concept of “perfect posession” is a demonic lie. It sounds like a tactic to get people to despair.

Jesus said that those who blashheme against the HS will not be forgiven. The Catholic Church says, basically, that all sin is forgivable but that there is a condition of the soul wherein it is highly unlikely the person will repent… Once a person has gone against God (the HS) once, it is easier to do again… then easier still the next time and then it comes to the point the person is sold out to the devil… He COULD still repent but it is not likley, hwich is why Jesus warned about this sin (St. Mt 12:32).

is God’s will that all be saved. I can’t imagine Him handing someone over to the complete control of demons in this life. That would be Hell on earth.

God does not hand anyone over to demons… but a person’s free will can and does…

 

[distracted]

“Do you think radical pro-abortionists are possessed?”

Sort of…yeah. I know a few intense radicals at work who seem possessed when they argue with opponents. They totally lose it, turning red, panting, with bulging eyeballs and sweat building up on the brow. It’s fascinating to watch. I can’t believe how worked up they get. It’s a sign of immaturity, bad judgment, mild insanity, or demonic possession.

or all of the above… sounds like what those possessed people go through in an exorcism… (or what the demond goes through in resisting, i should say… )

 

[distracted]

OP, I have seen many of your posts in other sections of the forum that are so filled with condemnation that I can’t believe your many rosaries are heard, for this is not the heart and mind of God, who sent His Son, “not to condemn the world, but to save it.” And the timing of your thread just days before His holy Incarnation is totally imprudent and out of touch with the advent message - Come, Lord Jesus! In charity, I ask you to pray about this very seriously.

you are not my judge.

you don’t know me one bit

 

[distracted]

I have a hard time accepting a glowing endorsement from Martin’s own website. Even if he was all those things, he is not infallible.

Martin fell for, and then propagated the one huge lie that a demon possessing a person would like all of us to believe: that a person can be be so much under Satan’s control as to be beyond God’s capacity to save him. Satan would love for us to believe he is stronger than God, which is exactly what Martin is saying in his theory of “perfect possession.”

You, Jim, are putting your own soul and the souls of those reading this forum at risk by continuing to propagate Martin’s Doctrine of Despair. Please stop.

I think you need to step back and evaluate this attachment you have to Malachi Martin’s teachings.

just talking about such things does not cause a person to despair, usually.

I think it needs to be said here (for all those who are inclined to despair) that the Catholic Churhc (and possibly not many others???) teaches that the sin against the HS, the unforgivable one, is NOT just saying something bad about God or the HS…or whatever… it involves lack of repentence… getting to that point where you are hardened and no longer care about going to Heaven (etc, etc…) . There is no despair in feeling like one won’t make it…If one accepts the Church’s teachings, one will not fall inot despair because the Church teaches that ALL sin is forgivable… I wish i had known htis years ago because I (and mnay i know) wondered if we had committed that sin… It is NOT good to be ignorant about that particular scripture passage… which is another reason i am SO thankful for my Catholic faith… it has cleared up so much confusion… I feel we Catholics should try to bring up this subject of the unforgivable sin as often as possible and explain the Church’s teaching on it so others will not be confused… & give up…

 

[distracted]

beckycmarie;

This is your opinion, and quite frankly insulting.

You’re no more an expert on this subject than I am.

Malachi Martin was an expert and a consultant to three Popes.

I think it is you, who needs to stop attacking the man and anyone who accepts what he wrote and taught. Heck, you might as well attack the Catholic Church, because the Church accepted his expertise.

don’t you just hate it when people act like they know you… and your motives… etc… and then they tell you waht to do like you are a naughty child or something…

 

[distracted]

"First, you don’t know that.

first, maybe you need to re-read what i said. I said “I feel…” not that i KNOW.

A lot of time, energy and research goes into “diagnosing” possession. It’s not as easy as saying that a person is a murderer and thus must be possessed. That’s simply not true. Truly, the only way to know for sure is to perform the exorcism (as Father Amorth points out).

frankly i feel that anyone who commits murder of any kind is possessed (unless it was done in a jealous rage or whatever…& even then, i wonder… )

As well you should and I should. Remember this, if we think we see demons in every corner we will.

where have you been? There ARE demons in every corner… .

 

[Joysong]

Distracted:

you are not my judge.

Nor are you the judge of pro-abortionists or murderers, stating with clear condemnation that they are possessed.

you don’t know me one bit

No, but I read your words, and they are harshly judgmental, the same thing you just accused me of. Similarly, “you don’t know them one bit!” Read these two statements of yours in this thread alone.

frankly i feel that anyone who commits murder of any kind is possessed.

anyway, I feel that many pro-abortionists are perfectly possessed.

The grave error in your judgment is the assumption that they will never repent or be granted God’s grace and forgiveness, because they are “possessed.” This is not Catholic teaching, and you are not in a position to know their motivation whatsoever, nor can you assume they are possessed. It’s called “rash judgment.”

 

[distracted]

The grave error in your judgment is the assumption that they will never repent or be granted God’s grace and forgiveness, because they are “possessed.” This is not Catholic teaching.

well, you can keep putting words in my mouth and misunderstanding me. Frankly, i no longer care… Like i said, you don’t know me…

but Jesus does… and i have to answer to HIm, not you…

 

[beckycmarie]

i never said he didn’t… again, i never said that…

Distracted,

I know you didn’t, which is why I wanted to bring up what the concept of “perfect possession” claims. Jim confirmed it a few posts later by sharing the quote from Malachi Martin in which Martin asserts that it is possible for someone to be “so far gone” that they are beyond help.

Yes, I know demons will say a person is too far gone. Demons want us to give up; they want us to despair. Which is why we shouldn’t listen to them, or ex-priests who agree with them.

Now to Jim.

I will be the first to agree with you that I am no expert. But I would venture a guess that I have more training in demonology than you. It sounds like your understanding of demonology and possession comes entirely from the writings of Malachi Martin, a laicized, schismatic priest who railed against the church both in writing and in speech for the last few decades of his life. I don’t understand why you put so much stock in the teachings of Martin as if everything he says is the Gospel truth, when in fact, his message of hopelessness and despair is the opposite of the Gospel message.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I have deleted this Post as once I posted and re read I realized that my theology was unsound.
The last time I deleted a post, someone had responded to it before I could delete it, so I had to respond to my own faulty logic.

I am hoping someone has not picked up on this post I have just deleted.

 

[Joysong]

Becky,

I did find the chapter from the other priest who ministered deliverance. He wrote:

When people talked about exorcism I used to think about people being “possessed.” Clearly this was a rare phenomenon. The problem is in the term “possession.” Real possession when an individual’s personality is submerged by an alien evil force is certainly rare. It is nothing most of us need to be concerned about. But the word in the New Testament which is often translated as “possessed” actually means in the original Greek, something like “demonized” — which is a much broader term. I find that possession is rare but people who are demonized, who are attacked or oppressed by demonic forces, are a relatively common occurrence.

And he goes on to explain the extreme importance of discernment to know what is wrong and how to proceed. The root cause could be depression, hormonal imbalance, need for inner healing from psychological wounds, spiritual oppression, compulsion, etc.

I was quite surprised, but not really, to read his account of demonic activity:

They ordinarily try to convince the afflicted person that he is unworthy, unlovable, doomed to failure, headed toward death and disaster, hated by God, and filled with irredeemable guilt.

Condemnation, guilt, unworthiness, — none of these are from the Holy Spirit. The telltale footprints are rather obvious.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Distracted,

I know you didn’t, which is why I wanted to bring up what the concept of “perfect possession” claims. Jim confirmed it a few posts later by sharing the quote from Malachi Martin in which Martin asserts that it is possible for someone to be “so far gone” that they are beyond help.

Yes, I know demons will say a person is too far gone. Demons want us to give up; they want us to despair. Which is why we shouldn’t listen to them, or ex-priests who agree with them.

Now to Jim.

I will be the first to agree with you that I am no expert. But I would venture a guess that I have more training in demonology than you. It sounds like your understanding of demonology and possession comes entirely from the writings of Malachi Martin, a laicized, schismatic priest who railed against the church both in writing and in speech for the last few decades of his life. I don’t understand why you put so much stock in the teachings of Martin as if everything he says is the Gospel truth, when in fact, his message of hopelessness and despair is the opposite of the Gospel message.

I know you didn’t, which is why I wanted to bring up what the concept of “perfect possession” claims. Jim confirmed it a few posts later by sharing the quote from Malachi Martin in which Martin asserts that it is possible for someone to be “so far gone” that they are beyond help.

Presupposing a person is actually demonically possessed but with free will still intact (as The Church teaches), then if such a person actually chooses to be possessed and all it implies…then this person, it seems to me, could well be termed “perfectly possessed” since they actively choose to be so with no desire to be saved nor helped?
And to reason that such a state is impossible is a denial of our free will - it is to state that our will is not entirely free?

Questions.

For Satan to strive to drive a person to despair is an entirely different matter. In my example above, the person is actually and actively freely choosing Satan and all the concurrent evil in the wake. To be tempted to despair, or an attempt made to drive a person to despair, it seems to me that the person needs to have some hope somewhere in the first place of salvation? Else despair is clearly impossible. In my example above, the person has no desire whatsoever for salvation in the first place - does not want to be saved.

Questions.