Do you think RCIA needs reform?

[Michael_Saint]

The Period of Catechesis should be a presentation of the Doctrine of the Church, or else why call it “Catechesis”?

(How can they have memorized the Apostles’ Creed and the Lord’s Prayer to recite them aloud for the Presentations of each of these during the Lenten period, if they never actually study these things?)

I think you got me wrong here. Yes, it is supposed to be “Catechesis”, but “Patristic” and “Biblical” Catechesis. So when Moses dips the branch into the bitter water and it becomes drinkable and sweet, the Fathers used this story to convey the fact that it is through our Lord’s Cross that the waters of baptism find its efficacy. This kind of thing.

The theologians who composed Vatican II (no, it was not the bishops who wrote it, although they did vote on the documents) were part of the “new theology”, which was big into “ressourcement”: getting back to our Christian roots. That means Scripture, Patristics, etc. Obviously the Holy Spirit wanted to give His thumbs-up to this approach, as the documents were ratified.

The fact is, biblical catechesis is a presentation of the Faith in the precise way that God Himself revealed Himself and His truth, and so it is the method par-excellence. He reveals Himself primarily through His great deeds in history - the parting of the Red Sea, the Babylonian exile, etc. Jesus spoke louder and conveyed the truth more convincingly through His sacrificial death than all of what He taught. I think that is one of the reasons why the Biblical writers wanted to emphasize the fact that Christ remained silent throughout His Passion (save for “seven last words”)

The fact is, a story does more to convey an idea and convert a heart than mere recitation of moral precepts. Hence the great value of the Old Testament. If I had a son, and I told him not to put his hand on the stove because his hand can burn, he may or may not listen. But if I tell my son that his uncle who has a prosthetic arm has one because when he was a kid he stuck his hand on the stove and it burned right off, then there is no way my son is going to stick his hand on that stove!

 

[Michael_Saint]

Here is what the Council actually said, in “Ad Gentes”: “The catechumenate is not a mere expounding of doctrines and precepts, but [rather] a training period in the whole Christian life, and an apprenticeship duty drawn out, during which disciples are joined to Christ” (AG14).

The Council wanted to avoid a mere “expounding of doctrines and precepts” because it did not want to lead people to think that the Christian life is nothing but the “following of a bunch of rules and adherence to a bunch of tenets”, but rather, a profoundly personal relationship with a loving God, which is conveyed most strongly and effectively through Scripture. Furthermore, as I have already stated, the nature and profundity of that relationship comes across more effectively when it is done in the exact same way God chose to reveal it - in time, event following event, culminating in Christ.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…

Thank you
I have both questions and issues

Question: I have found little official training or guidance for Catechists concerning RCIA (not ccd) so please point out any you know of .

Issue; though theory dictates the new members will eventually learn the Catholic rules, it just does not happen. I have seen people who should not have received sacraments (2nd marriage, cohabitating, contraception, refused reconciliation, non- convalidated marriages, etc, etc) get in line attend 25-35 weeks of lets feel good class and receive the sacraments. I do not blame them however how do we then tell them the issues create a state in which they are not in communion with the church? Some probably sit in the pew with me each Sunday. How can we hold them responsible for what they do not know? What is the process to teach them what they need to know?

Issue: As mentioned earlier how can you ask them to profess “I believe all the Catholic Church teaches” if we did not inform them what that is. Seriously I have seen many leave without knowing there is a Catechism or Canon law

 

[jmcrae]

I have been reflecting on this, and what I think is that the way I did it (which was purely by accident) is the only possible way to really convert - everything else is just a change of window-dressing.

What I did was, after five years of RCIA, and not being able to understand what was going on (or thinking I knew that it was all junk - although at a certain level, I was aware that I just wasn’t “getting” something), I moved into a Catholic neighborhood and attended daily and Sunday Masses for the next twelve years (with no thought of converting, and without attempting to partake of the Sacraments), and I socialized with the people in that community, which included all different kinds of people and all different points of view. I went to Bible study with them, went out for coffee with them, participated in Life in the Spirit activities, insofar as a non-Catholic is permitted to, and so on.

Then, I did three months of very intense RCIA Catechesis (using the story-telling method suggested by Michael) and then I was received into the Church. And I still didn’t know anything, really - I was received into the Church six years ago, and I’m still learning things I never knew before.

 

[jmcrae]

The fact is, a story does more to convey an idea and convert a heart than mere recitation of moral precepts. Hence the great value of the Old Testament. If I had a son, and I told him not to put his hand on the stove because his hand can burn, he may or may not listen. But if I tell my son that his uncle who has a prosthetic arm has one because when he was a kid he stuck his hand on the stove and it burned right off, then there is no way my son is going to stick his hand on that stove!

One thing I do know, having taught in a variety of settings for more than 24 years, is that, yes, story-telling is very effective - as long as you also remember to include the moral of the story.

It does no good to tell the story of the uncle, without also mentioning that all hot stoves can potentially do this kind of damage - Uncle wasn’t just having “bad luck;” there was a logical sequence to what happened to him, beginning with touching a hot stove with his bare hand.

In the majority of cases, you have to make the progression of logic to be very explicit, or else they don’t remember the lesson. They’ll remember the story well enough, but they won’t connect it to the idea that they shouldn’t touch a hot stove.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I have been reflecting on this…

Thank you for sharing this it is rather interesting. Let me flip the coin. I like many, many, many considered myself Catholic and thought I know what it meant. Then when my children were Catechized I was very upset, because they knew nothing as best I could tell they were protestants! I am not joking they nor any student knew there were Canons, or official Catechism, or the Trinity, on and on it went. So I got involved and it has been a battle. The RCIA team( which I am a member) has shown me a series of feel good books combined with the rites, frankly the process is currently hours of socializing with inserts of teaching. Last year our entire class met about 40 hours that is start to finish my guess is 25 hours were social, so 15 hours of learning is probably what they had a shot to learn about Catholism. I am not happy about it, yet I cannot find a better way at least yet. Similarly when I am around a ccd class it just seems more hours of the same. The good has been through that process and this forum I have learned probably 4 time more about catholism than when I intervened, so I know we have to find a better why.

Michael Saint if you are reading, remember that during the Apostolic time a convert converted to the only Christian church. Now a convert rarely knows the catholic teaching verses other Protestant teachings, and often is confused by it all because of the various Christian sources.

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you for sharing this it is rather interesting. Let me flip the coin. I like many, many, many considered myself Catholic and thought I know what it meant. Then when my children were Catechized I was very upset, because they knew nothing as best I could tell they were protestants! I am not joking they nor any student knew there were Canons, or official Catechism, or the Trinity, on and on it went.

Yes, I know what you mean. I recently started a new position, and was startled to find that my predecessor had been giving the children Protestant Bibles to read. Apparently, he was not aware of any difference, and the Protestant Bibles were “easier.”

So I got involved and it has been a battle. The RCIA team( which I am a member) has shown me a series of feel good books combined with the rites, frankly the process is currently hours of socializing with inserts of teaching. Last year our entire class met about 40 hours that is start to finish my guess is 25 hours were social, so 15 hours of learning is probably what they had a shot to learn about Catholism.

Yeah, I know what you mean. The socializing is important, too, though, because when they get stuck and frustrated with the teaching, it’s looking forward to seeing their friends that keeps them coming back, so it is an essential component. But I agree with you that it can get out of hand, at times.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Thank you
I have both questions and issues

Question: I have found little official training or guidance for Catechists concerning RCIA (not ccd) so please point out any you know of .

Issue; though theory dictates the new members will eventually learn the Catholic rules, it just does not happen. I have seen people who should not have received sacraments (2nd marriage, cohabitating, contraception, refused reconciliation, non- convalidated marriages, etc, etc) get in line attend 25-35 weeks of lets feel good class and receive the sacraments. I do not blame them however how do we then tell them the issues create a state in which they are not in communion with the church? Some probably sit in the pew with me each Sunday. How can we hold them responsible for what they do not know? What is the process to teach them what they need to know?

Issue: As mentioned earlier how can you ask them to profess “I believe all the Catholic Church teaches” if we did not inform them what that is. Seriously I have seen many leave without knowing there is a Catechism or Canon law

Question 1: Once again, Vatican II laid out stipulations for the training of Catechists. But in this area - as pretty much every other area Vatican II addressed - was never implemented.

Issue 1: In Biblical Catechesis, ALL the Church’s teachings are dealt with. When we get to “Deuteronomy”, the issue of Divorce is dealt with. In Genesis 9, when discussing “be fruitful and multiply”, and Noah’s attempt to make good on this in Gen. 9:20, the issue of Contraception is dealt with. The entire Old Testament deals with pretty much every marital and sexual issue you can name - I mean, the whole Bible is a story about sex and marriage anyways.

Issue 2: Biblical Catechesis merely deals with the catechetical aspect of the Church. “Prayer” is a whole separate section, and of course, the people are taught to pray the Creed, the Our Father, Hail Mary, etc. etc.

 

[Michael_Saint]

What I did was, after five years of RCIA, and not being able to understand what was going on (or thinking I knew that it was all junk - although at a certain level, I was aware that I just wasn’t “getting” something), I moved into a Catholic neighborhood and attended daily and Sunday Masses for the next twelve years (with no thought of converting, and without attempting to partake of the Sacraments), and I socialized with the people in that community, which included all different kinds of people and all different points of view. I went to Bible study with them, went out for coffee with them, participated in Life in the Spirit activities, insofar as a non-Catholic is permitted to, and so on.

Then, I did three months of very intense RCIA Catechesis (using the story-telling method suggested by Michael) and then I was received into the Church

Exactly! That is why Vatican II said that the Catechumenate must be an immersion into the entire Christian life.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Michael Saint if you are reading, remember that during the Apostolic time a convert converted to the only Christian church. Now a convert rarely knows the catholic teaching verses other Protestant teachings, and often is confused by it all because of the various Christian sources.

I would attribute this sad fact to poor catechesis and RCIA instructors who are not in the least qualified.

 

[jmcrae]

Exactly! That is why Vatican II said that the Catechumenate must be an immersion into the entire Christian life.

And this cannot happen in six months or a year.

In my case, it took 17 years in total, and I should really have taken longer, actually, because I wasn’t ready at all for my First Confession - I should have taken an extra year, or maybe even two years, to become catechized on Confession before making the attempt, because I not only had no clue of the ritual, I had no idea what it was that I was even attempting (and failing) to do.

I do understand that, according to Catholic theology, a failed but sincere attempt is still considered a “successful” attempt in the eyes of God, but it would have been nice just from an aesthetic point of view to have been able to know what I was doing.

 

[jfallaw]

I think that the format for delivering the instruction for RCIA could certainly be reformed. I think this is something that Catholics can learn from us Protestants in looking at the successes of some of our programs like Alpha. I’m not saying to copy Alpha, but there are teaching techniques that Alpha uses that really make a difference in helping people understand the material.

For example, if, in my dream world I were running RCIA it would happen like this:

1. You begin with gathering for some prayer time (teaching the prayers of the church)
2. You then spend time at your table discussing the readings for the coming week, using a couple of guiding questions.
3. There is a short teaching time, 25 minutes or so, possibly including multimedia of some sort.
4. The rest of the time is spent in small groups of 2-4 people (candidates with sponsors) talking about the topic for the week and sharing with each other.
5. Everyone comes back together for an ending prayer time and some final Q&A.

And, there should also be childcare provided, and possibly food. Having RCIA on the same night as the children Faith Formation would be an even better bonus plan…

Anyway, just my thoughts.

At one point in life I was in a rehabilitational facility run by Protestants (I think Methodists) and had to attend the Alpha courses as a part of it. I must admit I loved it. The man in the videos (an Anglican, I believe) was a great speaker and had a great way of presenting the lessons. The workbook came in handy and I still reference it sometimes, as there are many places where you write your personal thoughts, and it’s fun to read what I thought about things at the time. meh. I attended RCIA and it was great, too, but not very fun or interesting, at least not at that parish. And yes I know the point is not to have fun, but it helps!

 

[jfallaw]

I am sorry but why dismiss anybody from Mass?
They can get scripture and prayer in Mass.
I am glad that my Priest did not dismiss anybody from Mass!

I think the original thinking was that, since the whole point of Mass is the Eucharist, and since catechumens cannot receive the Eucharist, that they should be dismissed so they wouldn’t have to sit and watch everyone receive that which they are (supposedly and hopefully!) longing to receive. For some this can be quite tortuous! Like watching everyone eat cake when you’re on a diet I imagine…

 

[Holly3278]

When I went to RCIA 2 years ago (I think it was 2 years ago), it was great. I went to a big and orthodox parish. Everything that was taught was in line with the Magisterium. Our RCIA director’s name was Phil. He was a great teacher. And was also quite humble.

 

[otjm]

I think we can agree that there are those who go through RCIA and come out the other end - Easter Vigil - knowing little or nothing about the Catholic Church (as opposed to some Protestant variation).

It might help to keep in mind that we baptize infants and consider them Catholic, and they know nothing at all of the faith.

It might also be helpful to keep in mind that because of extremely poor catechesis, we also now have adults who were baptized as babies, who know very little of the faith.

It might also help to keep in mind that the RCIA process is supposed to be year - round; that is, since it is based on a lectionary approach (as opposed to a purely biblical approach as noted by Michale Saint), it really requires a full year, not something starting in September (as ours does - sigh!).

RCIA is not meant to teach one everything about the faith. It should cover enough that one could distinguish oneself from the Protestants, however.

Faith is a journey. It is certainly in need of information - doctrine and discipline - but is not contained within those; an atheist can have all the information base and no faith. RCIA is not meant to teach each and everything about the Church; one is expected to continue to learn (something that many, if not most cradle Catholics seem to not know or understand).

So to a certain extent, perhaps the question really is: how much information must one have before one enters the Church? And coupled with that is: how is faith formed, and what part does the RCIA process play in that?

 

[phoenixbird]

My conversion is between me and God, no one else.

I am all for community, but I guess I’m sick of hearing this same old excuse anytime I inquire about an RCIA program. Somehow I am wrong in wanting to convert since I would rather focus on being right with God and giving myself to Him by becoming a member of His Church rather than get involved in a ton of church activities before even converting. Thats how I’m constantly made to feel.

I have a lot of private struggles right now, plus a lot of social anxiety, so I’m not going to be comfortable jumping right into a bunch of social groups and focus only on “community” of church when right now what I need is the “worship” aspect of church. What happened to worship? Yes, its important for converts to realize the importance of community and being involved…but during conversion we are going through a lot of turmoil and hardship and I think too much the community aspect overshadows everything else. We’re trying to learn and grow spiritually and all that keeps getting shoved down our throats is “community! community! hold hands! greet your neighbor!”

:clapping:
I get the same exact thing. Everything is about “community”, which is fine and there is a place for it…but IMHO the RCIA needs to focus on worship since isn’t that what we’re all here for? My last class (literally) the main focus was why seating was not only in front of the altar, but along both sides as well. The reason given was that so we could see the other parishioners to remind us that we are a “community”. I’m sorry, but shouldn’t we be focusing on Jesus, the priest, and the Mass itself and not be looking around at other people?? The individual teaching it also ridiculed the “old” churches and the seating that looked “like we’re all on a school bus to heaven”. Well excuse me for preferring the “old” but I’m sick and tired of walking into a Catholic Church and not knowing if I’m in the right place. There have been 2 separate occasions now where I thought I was in a protestant church and was turning around to walk back to re-check my directions until I ran into somebody and asked “I’m looking for St. So-and-So Catholic Church, am I in the right place?” No crucifixes in sight (until it’s brought in at the start of Mass), no statues, no tabernacle that I saw, just a big wooden cross in the sanctuary.

I guess it boils down to that I wish there was unity within the RCIA process as a whole since it does appear that there are truly wonderful RCIA programs, but many more are lacking and I think it’s driving interested people away and only the stubborn and resourceful few will either continue to “just get through it” or find another parish entirely.

 

[janw]

I understand your frustration completely as I am in rcia and went to three different parishes before starting rcia. This was after more than a decade visiting protestant churches trying to find where I belonged. The protestant churches were always fighting or breaking up into 2 different churches or preaching very bad theology. All this time I keep praying and studying the Bible and History of christianity. When I discovered what the catholic church believed, I could not believe it but this was closest to what I had come to believe. The things I didn’t understand, I prayed about and believe God helped me to understand and believe. So I am and was convinced this is where he wanted me. I was a little shocked that catholic parishes could be so different as I thought all followed the Pope and the trouble of differences would not exist in the catholic church. I see I was wrong on that and we should pray for unity as that is what God wants. At first I wanted to feel things were not quite as they should be, but I decided I believe by the guidence of the Holy Spirit that I should go along with things as a new catholic, and realized this took humility, so I prayed for that and God answered me as I am not wild about the way our class is going but I can study alot at home and I just desire to be part of his church. Maybe one day, when I know alot more I pray God could use me to help with the rcia process. I also believe that some of the troubles we feel is spiritual warfare from the evil ones as they do not want unity or for us to come into the church. So do not feel alone in this and do not give up no matter what. God will bless you for these struggles. If I get to busy to pray even for a day or so, things look discouraging, so Pray alot and believe God will see us through this.

 

[janw]

:. Well excuse me for preferring the “old” but I’m sick and tired of walking into a Catholic Church and not knowing if I’m in the right place. There have been 2 separate occasions now where I thought I was in a protestant church and was turning around to walk back to re-check my directions until I ran into somebody and asked “I’m looking for St. So-and-So Catholic Church, am I in the right place?” No crucifixes in sight (until it’s brought in at the start of Mass), no statues, no tabernacle that I saw, just a big wooden cross in the sanctuary.

What bothers me the most is when catholics do not bow or give even a tilt of the head in procession before receiving communion. I guess maybe they take this too lightly after having this available for their entire lives. I’m not being critical as I might be doing the same thing if I had been catholic my entire life. As a new convert this is the most wonderful part of being catholic. I feel sure if Jesus appeared in the flesh to these same folks they would fall to their knees at the least.:bowdown2:

 

[lak611]

What bothers me the most is when catholics do not bow or give even a tilt of the head in procession before receiving communion. I guess maybe they take this too lightly after having this available for their entire lives. I’m not being critical as I might be doing the same thing if I had been catholic my entire life. As a new convert this is the most wonderful part of being catholic. I feel sure if Jesus appeared in the flesh to these same folks they would fall to their knees at the least.:bowdown2:

Probably the reason for this is that it is a relatively new practice. This was started only about 3 years ago. When I made my first Communion in 1976, I received kneeling at the rail. This was the practice for about the next 3-4 years. Some time around 1979-1980, the rails were removed and Communion was received by just walking up. No head bows were required. I do bow before receiving now, but for people who were receiving for about 25 years without bowing, it may take a bit of training for them to remember to do this. It is probably easier for a new Catholic or a child who has just begun to receive Communion to remember this.

 

[PBP]

At our parish, the RCIA program uses the Catechism as the foundation for learning and all of the people on the team who facilitate the program are very devout Catholics who adhere to the deposit of faith. Not all RCIA programs are equal and there is a definite need for faithful Catholics to step up and join the ministry instead of comfortably watching from the recliner. I notice that the people who often complain the most in regard to Church ministry are also the same people who volunteer the least. At least this is my own personal experience.

You are absolutely correct about the complainers. Cant find them at anything that would require an effort passed their obligation to mass. Our RCIA process is approached with a great faith in the Holy Spirit guiding us. We dont follow the rigid outline and those looking in from the outside may find fault. This year we spent more time on the Inquiry phase getting lots of different parishioners to come in and talk of their relationship with Jesus. We have had many candidates who made their conversion return the next year to be part of the team. I would say it is successful.