Do you think secular (upbeat, fast) music at mass is distracting?

[anniemart]

On Sundays, we have different choirs at 3 of our 4 masses. This particular Sunday, it appeared that there was more than the usual baby and young children noise heard. (It was really loud at some moments.) God Bless our little ones!

The choir played a most hauntingly somber song that unfortunately, not being overly familiar with most traditional music yet, I did not recognize it. Nonetheless, it moved me to the point of tears. Then the choir followed this piece with a secular song that had several people clapping. When mass was over, the priest told me and a few others that he did not like that secular music at mass under any circumstance and that the choir in question already knew this. He was livid to tell the truth. He then stated that the secular music was the reason for the louder than usual children at mass that morning. He also pointed out that there were several kids out of their pews wandering about. He finished with the statement that this kind of music leads the young kids and some adults to think that they are at a rock and roll show and not at mass. While I prefer to hear secular music outside of mass, I was left with wondering if he could be right about it being distracting in some way to our youngest of brothers and sisters. Any thoughts? Musicman, what are your thoughts here, please?

God indeed blesses us each every minute of every hour of every day.

 

[Lovemyfaith]

He then stated that the secular music was the reason for the louder than usual children at mass that morning.

We don’t have music at our daily Mass and the children can get pretty loud. I don’t mind upbeat music, in fact I prefer it to when te organ is turned up and to me, sounds like a merry go round.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

On Sundays, we have different choirs at 3 of our 4 masses. This particular Sunday, it appeared that there was more than the usual baby and young children noise heard. (It was really loud at some moments.) God Bless our little ones!

The choir played a most hauntingly somber song that unfortunately, not being overly familiar with most traditional music yet, I did not recognize it. Nonetheless, it moved me to the point of tears. Then the choir followed this piece with a secular song that had several people clapping. When mass was over, the priest told me and a few others that he did not like that secular music at mass under any circumstance and that the choir in question already knew this. He was livid to tell the truth. He then stated that the secular music was the reason for the louder than usual children at mass that morning. He also pointed out that there were several kids out of their pews wandering about. He finished with the statement that this kind of music leads the young kids and some adults to think that they are at a rock and roll show and not at mass. While I prefer to hear secular music outside of mass, I was left with wondering if he could be right about it being distracting in some way to our youngest of brothers and sisters. Any thoughts? Musicman, what are your thoughts here, please?

God indeed blesses us each every minute of every hour of every day.

There was a recient document on music in the Mass. Which I did not read. But I understood it prohibited the use of secular music in the Mass.

 

[VociMike]

Secular-sounding music will produce secular associations and secular reactions (e.g. the clapping you reported). These associations and reactions are the main reason secular-sounding music is used at Mass (to “attract” or “communicate with” the teens is how they will usually put it).

It is said that nothing profane (that is, nothing not set aside for sacred purposes) should enter the temple, but that’s exactly what happens when this sort of music is used. The profane is brought into the temple, and when inappropriate (to the liturgy) stimuli are introduced, it is no surprise that inappropriate (to the liturgy) responses occur.

 

[anniemart]

Secular-sounding music will produce secular associations and secular reactions (e.g. the clapping you reported). These associations and reactions are the main reason secular-sounding music is used at Mass (to “attract” or “communicate with” the teens is how they will usually put it).

It is said that nothing profane (that is, nothing not set aside for sacred purposes) should enter the temple, but that’s exactly what happens when this sort of music is used. The profane is brought into the temple, and when inappropriate (to the liturgy) stimuli are introduced, it is no surprise that inappropriate (to the liturgy) responses occur.

This choir in particular also uses a saxophone in nearly every piece of music…is this instrument considered secular?

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Yep.

Pretty much the only truly sacred instrument in the organ and the human voice without accompaniment.

 

[anniemart]

Yep.

Pretty much the only truly sacred instrument in the organ and the human voice without accompaniment.

well, I can see Father’s frustration clearly now…he is affectionately been named the “little bishop”…and I for one am grateful for what some parishioners consider to be his overly traditional manners. From what I understand, the music isn’t going to change (nor the musicians) until someone better comes along. Our musicians aren’t paid except for the Vigil organist and cantor.

This priest is not the pastor so I know that he probably can’t make his demands heard…As a parishioner I am sure I could vocalize my concerns to the pastor, but then again, this pastor installed a huge movie theater screen above the altar not more than 2 feet above Christ on the crucifix and he knows I wasn’t happy about that

I could approach the parish council I suppose but this choir pretty much makes up the council…but still, discussing concerns like decent humans should yield *some *results if not the ones we prefer? hmmm…

 

[puzzleannie]

On. Then the choir followed this piece with a secular song that had several people clapping. When mass was over, the priest told me and a few others that he did not like that secular music at mass under any circumstance and that the choir in question already knew this. He was livid to tell the truth. .

to tell the truth, I don’t know what to think about this post. I have no idea what OP means by secular music unless there is a specific example. do you mean “Christian contemporary” (sounds like top 40 rock with Christian lyrics), do you mean “praise and worship” meant to evoke a certain mood, including but not exclusively swaying and clapping, do you mean truly secular music, derived from pop culture without any Christian content?

If the music is not in service of the liturgy it has no place in the liturgy. truly secular music (not written for worship) has no place whatever, with the possible exception of playing America on the 4th of July as a recessional.

the second statement I quoted is what has me puzzled. the priest is the one and only liturgist for the Mass, and never under any circumstances should any choir or cantor or musician choose music without the priest’s direction, at least in a general sense. The priest should have shared his comments with the music people, not a handful of parishioners, if he is truly concerned.

 

[anniemart]

to tell the truth, I don’t know what to think about this post. I have no idea what OP means by secular music unless there is a specific example. do you mean “Christian contemporary” (sounds like top 40 rock with Christian lyrics), do you mean “praise and worship” meant to evoke a certain mood, including but not exclusively swaying and clapping, do you mean truly secular music, derived from pop culture without any Christian content?

If the music is not in service of the liturgy it has no place in the liturgy. truly secular music (not written for worship) has no place whatever, with the possible exception of playing America on the 4th of July as a recessional.

the second statement I quoted is what has me puzzled. the priest is the one and only liturgist for the Mass, and never under any circumstances should any choir or cantor or musician choose music without the priest’s direction, at least in a general sense. The priest should have shared his comments with the music people, not a handful of parishioners, if he is truly concerned.

I’m sorry for the wrong use of the wrong term, I should have googled the definition…sorry again, but no, this priest doesn’t select the music and in his defense, he isn’t one to gossip either. As a matter of fact, the music is selected by the pastor only for theVigil mass and on Holy days of obligation. The priest was very upset and I happened to stay that day after mass with a few others to clean up when this occurred. I know he was venting. To answer your questions, the music is christian and does praise the Lord but it’s also music I’ve heard on christian radio stations…If you re read my original post, you’ll see where he has indeed let the choir know his preferences in the past.

 

[puzzleannie]

something stronger is required than “letting the choir know his preference.” If they persist in selecting inappropriate music either the choir is going to have to undergo an attitude adjustement, have new leadership, or be disbanded. The priest has the final say-so on music, not the choir, and sounds like it is about time he let them know it. Venting to selected parishioners wiill probably be more divisive in the long run than duking this issue out with the choir.

 

[ncjohn]

Yep.

Pretty much the only truly sacred instrument in the organ and the human voice without accompaniment.

Oh, please…

There may be a preference for the organ, but to make such a statement is far outside the beliefs of the Church. In the TLM it might be considered the only appopriate instrument, but that is not true outside the TLM.

Secular music does not belong in the Mass, but not every piece of contemporary music is secular. Without knowing what the specific songs were, it’s hard to make any judgment about the specifics here. It would make sense though that if the priest, as the chief Liturgist, is opposed to certain songs or musical styles that his wishes should be abided by.

As to whether “upbeat” music is distracting, it will be to some and not to others. I personally find some distracting and other pieces not so. And that may vary depending on which side of the bed I got out of that morning. Gregorian chant will be distracting to some and not to others, as will polyphany. We have different musical tastes and I have yet to attend a single Mass during my lifetime where I could walk away saying I enjoyed–or hated–every single piece of music from that particular Mass.

Finally, the musical style often has to consider the demographics of the congregation. While a love for the traditional music of the Church certainly needs to be taught to all, nothing but that will quickly put off some people no matter how focused on God they may try to be, and no matter how aware they are that it isn’t about their preferences. If the music doesn’t uplift the people it won’t do its job.

Peace,

 

[anniemart]

something stronger is required than “letting the choir know his preference.” If they persist in selecting inappropriate music either the choir is going to have to undergo an attitude adjustement, have new leadership, or be disbanded. The priest has the final say-so on music, not the choir, and sounds like it is about time he let them know it. Venting to selected parishioners wiill probably be more divisive in the long run than duking this issue out with the choir.

If only I could take you in my pocket and pull you out at the appropriate time…sounds like you’d be quite helpful to us all…just being part of the church now for under three years, I have seen that this parish is very much “status quo” in operation. I trired getting involved with a few organizations but my vocal self wasn’t really desired (to put it mildly) I’m not in the habit of screaming my opinions I actually strive for diplomacy. But neither do I want to beat a dead horse. I’ll figure out how to best voice my concern…by the way, our three parish priests are very human and have very human personalities…you’d laugh at some of their past remarks and probably leave our parish for other remarks…but we love them all anyway

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Oh, please…

There may be a preference for the organ, but to make such a statement is far outside the beliefs of the Church. In the TLM it might be considered the only appopriate instrument, but that is not true outside the TLM.

Right back at you. Read SC, Tra le sollecitudini, etc. etc. and tell me that there is merely a “preference” for the organ as if it were merely a matter of personal taste. While no instrument is required, neither are they all equal.

As to whether “upbeat” music is distracting, it will be to some and not to others. I personally find some distracting and other pieces not so. And that may vary depending on which side of the bed I got out of that morning. Gregorian chant will be distracting to some and not to others, as will polyphany. We have different musical tastes and I have yet to attend a single Mass during my lifetime where I could walk away saying I enjoyed–or hated–every single piece of music from that particular Mass.

That is one of the biggest problems, we see Sacred Music as a matter of personal taste-and it isn’t.

Finally, the musical style often has to consider the demographics of the congregation. While a love for the traditional music of the Church certainly needs to be taught to all, nothing but that will quickly put off some people no matter how focused on God they may try to be, and no matter how aware they are that it isn’t about their preferences. If the music doesn’t uplift the people it won’t do its job.

I believe in milk before meat, but we do definately think that one form of music is by its very nature uplifting in the truest sense. That some people are not personally lifted up by it seems not to be a problem with the music…

 

[LighthouseRon]

Am I the only one here who thinks it was wrong for the priest to share his feelings with a few people in a public fashion instead of addressing the issue with the pastor or the music director in private?

 

[ltbpoe43]

Secular music can be distracting and does take away the reverence and purpose and maybe even the focus of the liturgy.

Most cantors and choir directors do inform the priest of the music selections prior to mass as a way to coordinate the message of the liturgy - songs should compliment readings. Not to do so just isnt good liturgy.

I would think the priest will definitely have a discussion with the choir director very, very, soon. Sometimes directors take liberty and use the mantra “better to ask forgiveness than permission”.

I think by telling a few parishioners maybe word will spread that the hand clapping is not appropriate nor encouraged regardless of the music in church - save it for the outdoor fairs or activities.

Wow - a saxophone - not exactly the most reverent of instruments. Where’s the strings?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Am I the only one here who thinks it was wrong for the priest to share his feelings with a few people in a public fashion instead of addressing the issue with the pastor or the music director in private?

No, you’re not the only one. I think it shows a definite lack of judgment for a priest to complain about one group of parishioners to another group of parishioners. Either deal with the choir directly (if that’s his job) or talk with the pastor (who is ultimately in charge of liturgy). If the pastor says to chill, then accept that decision with humility and grace.

 

[Sarabande]

something stronger is required than “letting the choir know his preference.” If they persist in selecting inappropriate music either the choir is going to have to undergo an attitude adjustement, have new leadership, or be disbanded. The priest has the final say-so on music, not the choir, and sounds like it is about time he let them know it. Venting to selected parishioners wiill probably be more divisive in the long run than duking this issue out with the choir.

I agree with this. If the priests in residence and the pastor all have a problem with the choice of music for mass, they need to have a meeting with the music director and discuss it with him/her. It really shouldn’t be discussed with certain parishioners unless the parishioners themselves approached the priest to complain. But even then, the priest should just take the complaints in without joining in the complaints of the musicians or volunteer singers in front of the parishioners and then take it to the pastor and the director. If the music director, musicians or the volunteer singers do not comply with what their boss (ie the pastor) wants after numerous warnings or at least come to some sort of a compromise, then the pastor needs to clean house, so-to-speak, and find a new music director. Actually, the hired musicians and volunteer singers do not have a real say of what can be sung or performed. It’s up to the music director to make the decisions. If there is trust between the director the pastor, there is not a need to run the music selections every Sunday, but I can see the need for it if there is no trust, which is not a good thing.

But it seems as if the pastor may be in favor of this kind of music. The priest the OP was talking about needs to then approach the pastor about what he believes is more appropriate for music during mass, get together with the music director and make a plan that when that particular priest is saying the mass, then more reverent, traditional music needs to be chosen.

It’s a lot easier when all the priests in the parish are in agreement with the kind of music liturgy they want for the mass, but it appears that is not the case at the OP’s church. I don’t know what kind of demographic the OP’s church is in, but that also has some play in the choices of music.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

I would find it distacting.

comrade Andei is a bell choir apprpriate? And if a church cannot afford an organ do you go without music? Don’t jump on me to hard please. To tell you the truth I despise it when they use an accustic guitar. I tolerate the piano and occasional flute at the 9am masses, guess thats why I go to the 11am - mostly organ, sometimes the bell choir which I love to listen to.

 

[ncjohn]

Since I don’t want to drag this off topic by getting into a debate about other things, I’ll address this only here and leave it alone.

Right back at you. Read SC, Tra le sollecitudini, etc. etc. and tell me that there is merely a “preference” for the organ as if it were merely a matter of personal taste. While no instrument is required, neither are they all equal.

There is a vast difference between “pride of placement”, or whatever the term used was, and “there is nothing else sacred”. Nor have I said in any way that they are all equal, only that the organ is not alone in *being able *to be sacred, though there is nothing sacred about the organ in and of itself.

That is one of the biggest problems, we see Sacred Music as a matter of personal taste-and it isn’t.

I didn’t say that it was other than commenting that some people are distracted by it, especially if it is the only thing available. It was distracting to some pre-Vatican II when it was the only thing available, and certainly would be now to most people. Those in a TLM setting make a choice of that limit. Those outside the TLM do not as a whole.

I believe in milk before meat, but we do definately think that one form of music is by its very nature uplifting in the truest sense. That some people are not personally lifted up by it seems not to be a problem with the music…

The fact that many people are not uplifted by it makes it *de facto *not inherently uplifting. The Church has judged it to be exceedingly appropriate due to its long heritage, but again that does not make it universally uplifting. Brocolli has been judged to be objectively healthy, yet some people cannot stomach it. No matter how much you educate them or appeal to its health benefits, they will not touch the stuff. I love Beethoven, yet there are certain pieces of his which I will turn off before they get three notes into the music.

Art forms are subjective, no matter how you cut it. Yes, we can say that *Panis Angelicus *is more suited to Mass than America the Beautiful, but it doesn’t translate that individuals will find one or the other, neither or both, uplifting. No, that doesn’t make it the fault of the music, but neither does it make it the “fault” of the people. And if the people don’t respond, as I said, the music loses its purpose.

All that being said, I fully believe that we need to do a better job of education and exposure of our rich heritage of sacred music. But I am not willing to impose an elitism that declares that it is the only thing that ever has been or ever can be uplifting and sacred, any more than there is an inherent superiority of the language of the liturgy, however much some might want to believe that God only hears us when we speak specific languages.

Peace,

 

[Lovemyfaith]

I don’t know about saxophone, but there were definitely trumpets mentioned in the Bible, though I may be biased since my teen does play the trumpet. All of the songs our teens play are in the Music Issue, and the teen Mass is well noted in the bulletin so it can be avoided if one does not like that music. Personally, I prefer daily Mass with no music but I am told there should be music at Mass.