Do you think that High-Church Anglicanism is much more elaborate and ornate than Novus Ordo Catholicism?

[Kyprianos]

***Do you think that Vatican II. Council *has given enough harm to traditional Roman Catholicism and in fact some Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian/Anglican parishes are to be considered more ‘‘High-Church’’ rather than Novus Ordo Catholics? No more smells&bells,Mozart,Bach in church but guitar and commercial music…

Why does Catholic Church deny its rich liturgical heritage?:dts:
**

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

***Do you think that Vatican II. Council ***has given enough harm to traditional Roman Catholicism and in fact some Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian/Anglican parishes are to be considered more ‘‘High-Church’’ rather than Novus Ordo Catholics? No more smells&bells,Mozart,Bach in church but guitar and commercial music…

Why does Catholic Church deny its rich liturgical heritage?:dts:

Regarding the underlined part: That is a great question. There’s a book titled "Desire to destroy that documents the mentality of the Liberals and Modernists whose stated goal is, believe it or not, to actually destroy the Church - and they think that doing so is a good thing!

They believe that by destroying the Church - by putting it to death - it will bring about the resurrection of the Church. Just as Jesus was put to death and rose again in glory, they believe that by putting to death the Church, it too will rise again in glory. Therefore, their stated goal is actually to destroy the Church. And you would be very surprised to see who is quoted in that book - very surprised!

So, to answer the question, it seems to me that the spirit of Liberalism and Modernism is a spirit of destruction. Therefore, it makes sense that they would seek to destroy the beauty of the Liturgy, along with everything else.

And I think all would agree with you other point; namely, that High Anglicanism is more majestic than a typical Novus Ordo Mass.

But, don’t forget that we have Traditional Catholicism, which has retained the majesty, and smells and bells you refer to.

The Liberals and Modernists have just about accomplished their goal with the Novus Ordo. Their “Desire to destory” is evident, as it is just about dead. Fortunately, they were unable to penetrate the Traditional Churches, which were able to maintain the true spirit of Catholicity. Their attack on Traditional Catholicism was one of ridicule, isolation, and slander. That worked for a while, but many Catholics are now waking up to the truth. They’ve had enough of the clown masses and “offering up” the blasphemies and sacrileges they had to endure while at Mass, and are finding their way to a Traditional Church where the spirit of Catholicism can still be found, and where God is treated with reverence.

 

[jc4751]

Well, speaking as an Episcopalian convert to Catholicism, I greatly missed the ceremony and ritual that accompanied the Episcopal/Anglican services. Among the “orthodox/conservative” minded Episcopalians, there was a great reverence and sincerity displayed before and during the service. While they were obviously in error, it has always been a source of disappointment for me to attend the modernist Mass and see people chatting it up in the sanctuary (including the priest), people dressed more casually than they would be for a family picnic, etc, etc, just a general lack of respect, which I think has become epidemic due to the idea of informality and casualness toward the faith presented in Vatican 2, regardless of one’s other feelings on the issue.

If there is an Anglican Catholic parish opening up within a reasonable driving distance (which is a strong possibility), I plan on attending on occasion just for the atmosphere I loved when I was younger.

 

[corsair]

It doesn’t take much to be more reverent than the Novus Ordo. I feel comfortable saying that here on the “traditional” forum. But watch some libs come over to attack.

Cheers

 

[GKC]

***Do you think that Vatican II. Council ***has given enough harm to traditional Roman Catholicism and in fact some Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian/Anglican parishes are to be considered more ‘‘High-Church’’ rather than Novus Ordo Catholics? No more smells&bells,Mozart,Bach in church but guitar and commercial music…

Why does Catholic Church deny its rich liturgical heritage?:dts:

Very often, yes.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[GIR]

It was not the goal of VII to destroy the liturgy. In fact, it has lots of good things to say about traditional worship. That being said, I feel that the NO has been a failed experiment.

 

[Bbigam]

It doesn’t take much to be more reverent than the Novus Ordo. I feel comfortable saying that here on the “traditional” forum. But watch some libs come over to attack.

I would amend this to say “It doesn’t take much to be more reverent than the way the Ordinary Form is often celebrated.”

Ordinary Form is the correct term nowadays and it is not inherently irreverent. However it is true that it is often - incorrectly - not reverently celebrated, a problem that is not nearly so common in the Extraordinary Form with its tighter rubrics (and priests and parishioners looking for more reverence in the face of some poorly celebrated OF Masses).

But I’m not a liberal and I hope this isn’t read as an attack.

 

[Timothysis]

It doesn’t take much to be more reverent than the Novus Ordo. I feel comfortable saying that here on the “traditional” forum. But watch some libs come over to attack.

Cheers

So, I am a “lib” because I don’t agree with you? This attitude simply supports the opinion of so many here at CAF that many so-called “Traditionalists” consider themselves better than the rest of the Catholic world.

 

[Mattapoisett64]

Well, speaking as an Episcopalian convert to Catholicism, I greatly missed the ceremony and ritual that accompanied the Episcopal/Anglican services. Among the “orthodox/conservative” minded Episcopalians, there was a great reverence and sincerity displayed before and during the service. While they were obviously in error, it has always been a source of disappointment for me to attend the modernist Mass and see people chatting it up in the sanctuary (including the priest), people dressed more casually than they would be for a family picnic, etc, etc, just a general lack of respect, which I think has become epidemic due to the idea of informality and casualness toward the faith presented in Vatican 2, regardless of one’s other feelings on the issue.

If there is an Anglican Catholic parish opening up within a reasonable driving distance (which is a strong possibility), I plan on attending on occasion just for the atmosphere I loved when I was younger.

There are some awfully troubling terms being thrown around on this thread. Since “modernism” is a defined heresy, the use of the term “modernist Mass” is saying that the overwhelming majority of Catholics, who attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass, are attending a heretical - and therefore invalid - liturgy. The thread title refers to “Novus Ordo Catholicism” as if participants at the Ordinary Form of the Catholic liturgy are some schismatic group or sect and only those who attend the Extraordinary Form are “real” Catholics.

And to the poster who brought up that tired, shopworn accusation of “clown Masses,” I think the burden should be to prove that one of those has happened in this country in the last 20 years or so, instead of making it sound as if they’re a common occurance every weekend in most dioceses. And those YouTube videos of bizarre European church goings-on, inexplicable as they are, don’t define the liturgical norm of the Ordinary Form, as much as some would like to think so.

 

[otjm]

***Do you think that Vatican II. Council ***has given enough harm to traditional Roman Catholicism

It would appear, first off, that you may not have read the documents of Vatican 2. In addition, you ask an interesting question that gets to the heart of the Faith: and that is, can the bishops of the world, united with the Pope in a Council, do anything which is contrary to traditional Catholicism (leaving the Roman part out, since it is only one of the rites of the Church)? Given that the bishops in concert with the Pope in working on the issues of the Church makes for a pretty good definition of Magisterium in action, the answer is no.

 

[Ockham]

[So the net of it is that yes, much to our loss, we are much more low key than we used to be; but so is society in general. It is not that the OF cannot have the pomp and circumstance that we used to have, but that it is generally thought to be unwanted and unnecessary. And much to our loss.

The “society’s to blame” argument doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. Shouldn’t Christ’s Church be the leader of society?

To answer the OP’s question, yes, a properly celebrated High Anglican service is more elaborate and I’ll add reverent then most Novus Ordo Masses I’ve seen. The NO can be said reverently, but the standard is a relaxed informality with a transfer of emphasis onto the mortals in attendance from immortal God.

So is this relationship a chicken/egg or cause and effect? Is it any coincidence Mass attendence is way down along with belief in the transubstantiation, participation in Sacraments such as Confession, adorations, prayer, etc? The consequence of falling away from Christ can be damning so this subject deserves better thought than simply blaming it on society.
[/quote]

 

[Claire_from_DE]

My overall experience has been at OF masses that are said reverently. I realize that this hasn’t been the experience of all the posters on this thread. At a recent daily mass, when my pastor sat down after communion he began to sing “Oh, Lord, I am not worthy”, IMHO the perfect after-communion song. He is 65 and recently ordained, after 34 years as a Franciscan brother. Thank God, for holy pastors!

Our former pastor was the youngest in the diocese, also one who was obviously committed to his priesthood and the Lord. He always did everything according to the rubrics. (well there was one aberration on Holy Thursday washing of the feet of some who were not men but I don’t expect perfection in this world).

I’m not liberal, not conservative, just Catholic. I’m so happy to be Catholic all my life beginning way before Vat.2. I’ll go to mass anywhere: OF, EF, other rites, English, Spanish, French, Latin. Just give me Jesus and I’m happy!

 

[ProVobis]

I’m not liberal, not conservative, just Catholic. I’m so happy to be Catholic all my life beginning way before Vat.2. I’ll go to mass anywhere: OF, EF, other rites, English, Spanish, French, Latin. Just give me Jesus and I’m happy!

That’s the bottom line, isn’t it?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I can not enter into the discussion because the original question is flawed.

There is no such thing as Novus Ordo Catholicism.

 

[otjm]

The “society’s to blame” argument doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. Shouldn’t Christ’s Church be the leader of society?

Any minimally adequate history fo the Church will show that what is going on in society is mirrored in the Church as far as what the people of the Church are doing/experiencing. I did not say that society was to blame; I said that what was going on in society was also going on in the Church.

There is a difference between the Church as Magisterium, and the Church when we refer to the members therein.

And if you continue to doubt the question, I would suggest that you look at the use of birth control; prior to Humanae Vitae, birth control was rising in members in the Church, but not as fast as in society in general; after the explosive rejection and within several years use of birth control by members of the Church was approaching that of the general population - in the 80% range. And that is one example.

Yes, Christ’s Church should be the leader of society; and the Magisterium I would submit does that; and anyone watching the reign of John Paul 2 and the constant cajoling, urging, and leading that he did certainly did that. And Benedict 16 follows in the same footsteps; he has raised the ire of many more than once.

But the fact is, the members of the Church are just as prone to sin as those who ar not members. Denying that what is going on in society is impacting those sitting in the pews is denying reality.

So is this relationship a chicken/egg or cause and effect? Is it any coincidence Mass attendence is way down along with belief in the transubstantiation, participation in Sacraments such as Confession, adorations, prayer, etc? The consequence of falling away from Christ can be damning so this subject deserves better thought than simply blaming it on society.

Simply blaming it on society is not what I said or did. Blaming it on the change in the Mass from the EF to the OF is simply playing post hoc, ergo propter hoc, but we have been down this path before. The issues of loss of faith are far more complex than a simplistic view that if we had just not changed the form of the Mass, all would be well in Catholic Land.

And if the change in the form of the Mass was such a cause of defection from the Church, then please explain why western Europe has had a far, far greater defection from weekly Mass attendance than the US, and why an area, such as Poland, which also had the change to the form of the Mass, has had such far, far greater attendance. All three - the US, western Europe and Poland, all had the same form of the Mass change; Europe fell so far off the edge of the earth that they make us look great; and Poland is so far beyond us that your conclusion makes no sense. Both the US and Poland should be showing attendance rates similar to Europe if the change in the Mass form was the cause of loss of attendance, but they don’t. However, Europe is far more secualrized than the US, and the US far more than Poland.

Oh darn, there we go again - the impact of what is going on in society having an impact on those in the Church. and that is not blaming society. There is a logical difference between blaming society for casuing something, and stating that what is infecting society is also infecting members of the Church.

 

[mick321]

I can not enter into the discussion because the original question is flawed.

There is no such thing as Novus Ordo Catholicism.

I wish there were no such thing.

I pray that it will disappear from the earth within my lifetime.

If you have not encountered it - you are indeed fortunate - or need to get out more.

Blessed be God. Blessed be His Holy Name.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I wish there were no such thing.

I pray that it will disappear from the earth within my lifetime.

If you have not encountered it - you are indeed fortunate - or need to get out more.

Blessed be God. Blessed be His Holy Name.

You are operating under a false premise.

As the Holy Father has stated, there is only one rite within the Latin Church. This rite contains two forms, the Ordinary and the Extraordinary.

I would also add that your offensive comment that I need to get out more just shows how flawed you thought is. To make such a comment to someone who disagrees with your premise shows a disrespect and an feeling of superiority that makes the further reading of your posts unnecessary.

 

[mick321]

You are operating under a false premise.

As the Holy Father has stated, there is only one rite within the Latin Church. This rite contains two forms, the Ordinary and the Extraordinary.

I would also add that your offensive comment that I need to get out more just shows how flawed you thought is. To make such a comment to someone who disagrees with your premise shows a disrespect and an feeling of superiority that makes the further reading of your posts unnecessary.

Br. David:

You are under no obligation to read or respond to this.

I agree with you and the Holy Father that there is only one Rite within the Latin Church. I further agree that the Rite contains both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms.

Novus Ordo Catholicism is neither a rite nor a form within the Catholic Church. It’s a toxic attitude of superiority - introduced to the Church in the 70s and 80s - that continues to infect many parishes today. It is about intolerance, disrespect, suppression of ideas, gratuitous exercise of authority, crushing of opposition, desecration of what is sacred, elevation of what is not.

What is obvious to some may be less so to others. Indeed, one who sees no evidence of the existence of racism or sexism may benefit from a closer look. Or not.

Peace. Out.

 

[Jordan_Francis]

It really depends where you go.

Certainly, there are many, far too many banal celebrations of the Liturgy in NO parishes everywhere. But reverence in the Mass has not died.

Currently, I am living in Germany. I have had an oppertunity to attend a number of Catholic Masses in Europe, and many of them have been very aware of the need for preserving its sacred quality. A Mass I attended for All Souls, for example, had all the sung ordinaries in Latin gregorian chant. The priest was robed in black, there were six candles behind the altar, insense and even nine altar servers.

Also, last weekend in Amsterdam, I found a Church that offered a Novus Ordo “Latin high Mass”, even though I would say about 50% of it was still in Dutch. Nonetheless, the sung parts pf the ordinary were done so in Gregorian Latin chant. Of course, this was very fitting for the age and decor of the church itself.

I have also noticed that, back in Canada, some of the parishes in my city are becoming more reverent, especially at the Cathedral.

Coetibus Anglicanorum can only have the great benefit of spurning on a true and proper Liturgical reform.

 

[The_Reginator]

I grew up an Anglican and never entered a Catholic Church until my early 20s. I was 38 when I finally converted.
I entered the Church at an FSSP parish. That was after attending a OF Mass for over a decade. In spite of the language difference I found that the EF Mass was more like the Anglican services than the Masses at our home parish.
None of the Anglican parishes I had attended in my youth were particularly ‘high church’. No smells and bells. But lots of reverence!