Do you think that Infedility is grounds for leaving a marriage?

[FromTheAshes777]

You and others can keep questioning my Catholocism. I believe this is against forum rules. Its a cheap insult, since you have no good points. I am sure there are others who agree with my position. But please continue.

I don’t think anyone here has questioned someone’s faith or judged any individual. We are discussing what the Catholic Church teaches on the subject.

She clearly has always taught that the Sacrament of Matrimony is binding for life, IF a valid Sacrament occured it is permanent until the death of one of the two parties, no matter what.

Arguing otherwise is like saying that someone can become unbaptized, or that the mark placed on the soul by Priestly Holy orders just disappears if he is laicized, or that someone can become unconfirmed after confirmation and need to recieve it again later, or that a validly confessed past sin can somehow become unforgiven again.

The Sacraments leave an indelible mark on the soul. God raised marriage in the New Covenenant to the level of a Sacrament. If a Sacramental Marriage truly and validly occured then NOTHING can undo it EXCEPT for the death of one of the spouses. The Church does allow for spouses to seperate for reasons of infedelity or abuse, but that does NOT mean that the Sacrament that occured in that Marriage suddenly disappears. This is straight forward Church teaching on the Sacraments, and what She has always taught. It’s all in the catechism, Holy Scripture, and tons of Church documents.

 

[benidict]

I don’t think anyone here has questioned someone’s faith or judged any individual. We are discussing what the Catholic Church teaches on the subject.

She clearly has always taught that the Sacrament of Matrimony is binding for life, IF a valid Sacrament occured it is permanent until the death of one of the two parties, no matter what.

Arguing otherwise is like saying that someone can become unbaptized, or that the mark placed on the soul by Priestly Holy orders just disappears if he is laicized, or that someone can become unconfirmed after confirmation and need to recieve it again later, or that a validly confessed past sin can somehow become unforgiven again.

The Sacraments leave an indelible mark on the soul. God raised marriage in the New Covenenant to the level of a Sacrament. If a Sacramental Marriage truly and validly occured then NOTHING can undo it EXCEPT for the death of one of the spouses. The Church does allow for spouses to seperate for reasons of infedelity or abuse, but that does NOT mean that the Sacrament that occured in that Marriage suddenly disappears. This is straight forward Church teaching on the Sacraments, and what She has always taught. It’s all in the catechism, Holy Scripture, and tons of Church documents.

Has your spouse ever commited adultery?

 

[Des]

Read the OP. I think your getting off topic. State YOUR opinion, and start another thread so we can debate this. Id love to.

You started by saying that adultery is grounds for a divorce in a valid Marriage (in the Catholic Church I’d assume since we are all Catholics here). Show me one document proving your case. No need for a thread.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

Has your spouse ever commited adultery?

what does that have to do with what the Church teaches on the subject?

are you saying that if i’m put in a hard situation i’m going to abandon the Church on the matter even if She asks me to do something difficult?

now who is questioning who’s faith?

 

[benidict]

what does that have to do with what the Church teaches on the subject?

are you saying that if i’m put in a hard situation i’m going to abandon the Church on the matter even if She asks me to do something difficult?

now who is questioning who’s faith?

Not questioning YOUR faith at all. Just wondering if you have any practical experience to make a Judgement on this. The fact is, you are human. YOU dont know WHAT you would do.

 

[Des]

Not questioning YOUR faith at all. Just wondering if you have any practical experience to make a Judgement on this. The fact is, you are human. YOU dont know WHAT you would do.

It’s not up to personal individual experiences to judge what God says is Sacramental and indissoluble and what isn’t. All you’re doing in this thread is giving your unCatholic opinion since it isn’t derived from what the Church teaches. You’re here trying to say that our personal experiences actually give us the power to tell God and His Church He’s wrong and His truths can be changed because of it. Amazing.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

Practical experience is not necessary to understand what the Church teaches on the Sacraments, all the Sacraments, and believe it firmly.

I have not judged any invidividual by stating what the Church teaches, and there isn’t anything wrong with proclaiming it and standing up for it. I’m pretty certain Jesus wants us to stand up for His Church.

Does the Church ask things that are difficult of us sometimes in life? Absolutely! If she didn’t, I would question if She really is the Church that Jesus founded because Jesus asked plenty of hard things of us during his earthly ministry.

I believe without a shadow of a doubt what the Church teaches about Holy Orders for example, that doesn’t mean that I will necessarily ever enter into them. I think believing it though is just as important as believing the teachings on the Eucharist, or Baptism, or Confession, ect.

In fact, the Church’s teaching on Marriage is a very big reason why I want to be recieved into full Communion. I think She is the only one that stands up for the truly Biblical standard of Marriage. (I am a Catholic in belief, attending Mass and recieving instruction, I just haven’t been recieved into full communion yet.)

So, if I can clarify. Are you arguing that the Church really doesn’t teach what I’m advocating it does? Or are you simply arguing that it’s wrong?

 

[benidict]

K guys. You walk into the room and find your wife in bed with another man. On the dresser is a camera, and 357 revolver. What do you do? This actually happened to a friend of mine. He chose the camera thank God. and was able to take his Adulterous wife to the Cleaners. God Bless Texas!

 

[benidict]

Practical experience is not necessary to understand what the Church teaches on the Sacraments, all the Sacraments, and believe it firmly.

I have not judged any invidividual by stating what the Church teaches, and there isn’t anything wrong with proclaiming it and standing up for it. I’m pretty certain Jesus wants us to stand up for His Church.

Does the Church ask things that are difficult of us sometimes in life? Absolutely! If she didn’t, I would question if She really is the Church that Jesus founded because Jesus asked plenty of hard things of us during his earthly ministry.

I believe without a shadow of a doubt what the Church teaches about Holy Orders for example, that doesn’t mean that I will necessarily ever enter into them. I think believing it though is just as important as believing the teachings on the Eucharist, or Baptism, or Confession, ect.

In fact, the Church’s teaching on Marriage is a very big reason why I want to be recieved into full Communion. I think She is the only one that stands up for the truly Biblical standard of Marriage. (I am a Catholic in belief, attending Mass and recieving instruction, I just haven’t been recieved into full communion yet.)

So, if I can clarify. Are you arguing that the Church really doesn’t teach what I’m advocating it does? Or are you simply arguing that it’s wrong?

The Church is wrong on this issue and others in my opinion. Our Churches views, on a number of issues. defy common sense. And on this issue is not biblical, or Rational.

 

[Seatuck]

Scripture says the church is the pillar of foundation and truth. Please try to work harder to gain understanding of her teachings.

 

[benidict]

Scripture says the church is the pillar of foundation and truth. Please try to work harder to gain understanding of her teachings.

What would you choose my friend. in the above scenario, would you choose the Camera? or the Gun? Or…Dont you know? The last one IS the correct answer. YOU dont know.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

The Church is wrong on this issue and others in my opinion. Our Churches views, on a number of issues. defy common sense. And on this issue is not biblical, or Rational.

I firmly disagree, and to be honest… if I thought the Catholic Church was so off base on so many issues from a Biblical and practical standpoint, I really would not have any desire to enter it.

So the affect of a Sacramental Marriage isn’t permanent? Is the affect of a valid Baptism permanent? Can you become unbaptized after a valid Baptism? As long as the appearance of bread and wine remains does Jesus leave the consecrated bread or consecrated wine? Can a previously validly confessed and forgiven sin suddenly become unforgiven later on? Is the indelible mark on the soul given in Holy Orders only temporary? After someone has been confirmed, can they become unconfirmed?

“No” you say?

How then does someone become “unmarried” except by the death of one of the spouses?

 

[benidict]

I firmly disagree, and to be honest… if I thought the Catholic Church was so off base on so many issues from a Biblical and practical standpoint, I really would not have any desire to enter it.

So the affect of a Sacramental Marriage isn’t permanent? Is the affect of a valid Baptism permanent? Can you become unbaptized after a valid Baptism? As long as the appearance of bread and wine remains does Jesus leave the consecrated bread or consecrated wine? Can a previously validly confessed and forgiven sin suddenly become unforgiven later on? Is the indelible mark on the soul given in Holy Orders only temporary? After someone has been confirmed, can they become unconfirmed?

“No” you say?

How then does someone become “unmarried” except by the death of one of the spouses?

Not biblical Christ gives the exception for Adultery. Sorry, you are incorrect. Or can only the rich and powerful be granted divorces by Rome. How many “annulments” were granted to the founder of the Church of England? Thats right. Another double standard. I can find at least a hundred given half the chance.

 

[salusanimarum17]

You and others can keep questioning my Catholocism. I believe this is against forum rules. Its a cheap insult, since you have no good points. I am sure there are others who agree with my position. But please continue. I am currently finding alot wrong with our Teachings, and I am investigating our moral theology point by point. I am finding them wanting in many areas. I will not leave the Church, but I will dissassociate my self from the congregation. I also receive personal messages from those that are too traumatized to speak their objections, because of their upbringing, and the traumatizing views ingrained into them by posters like yourself and others. I speak for them. Fear those who Fear you questioning. but…I dont fear YOU at all.

You are “questioning (your) Catholocism” more than anyone else. You would do well to not present your personal conclusions as those of the Church.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

Not biblical Christ gives the exception for Adultery. Sorry, you are incorrect. Or can only the rich and powerful be granted divorces by Rome. How many “annulments” were granted to the founder of the Church of England? Thats right. Another double standard. I can find at least a hundred given half the chance.

whew you scared me there for a second

I thought for a minute that the Catholic Church espoused the unScriptural argument that I have heard from so many that I grew up with in my previous church community. And nope, the context of the verse you’re referring to doesn’t allow for one time unfaithfulness. Have you looked at the original meaning of the word Christ used in this sentence? Thanks.

Matt. 5:31-32 - the Lord permits divorce only for “porneia.” This Greek word generally means unlawful sexual intercourse due to either blood relations (also called incest) or nonsacramental unions. The Lord does not permit divorce for “moicheia” (adultery). It is also important to note that in these cases, a marriage never existed in the first place, so the Lord is not actually permitting divorce, but a dissolution of the unlawful union.

 

[salusanimarum17]

Adultery is the breaking of the covenant of Marriage. there is no way around this. No matter how you twist this with cannon law.

How convenient–for adulterers. Commit adultery and be free of your marital obligations. Just go to confession after that and marry again. Something is obviously not right with that…

 

[FromTheAshes777]

How convenient–for adulterers. Commit adultery and be free of your marital obligations. Just go to confession after that and marry again. Something is obviously not right with that…

exactly

all Sacramental theology begins to break down then at this point, just as it would if you eliminated the theology on another one of the Sacraments besides Marriage

God gave us 7 of them for a reason, they all work together and interact with one another.

 

[Warrior1979]

The Church has taught from the beginning that the exception clause: “I tell you if a man divorces his wife, except for in the case of pornea, and remarries, he commits adultery”. this is the verse you refer to and its found in Matthew’s Gospel. The greek word pornea can mean incestuous relationship, illicit marriage, fornication, prostitution, and adultery. The Church, who wrote the Gospels and sees this verse in context of the rest of the New Testament, has always held that the only possible interpretation lies within the first two options, that is, incestuos relationship (too close blood relations or blood-affiliation relationships are also causes for invalidity of marriage today) or illicit marriage (that is invalid marriage because of impediments, previous bonds, insanity, being forced etc).

I’m aware of the Catholic Church’s interpretation on this matter. It should be noted that other Churches, with Apostolic Succession, do not have the same interpretation.

The no-divorce/no-remarriage issue is a tough one, because of its consequences. For me, it is difficult to accept that, say, a valid marriage could occur, the husband can subsequently abuse the wife, cheat, and refuse to have children, and then the innocent spouse has to spend the rest of her life childless and alone. Accepting the Catholic Church’s position means that indeed that the wife will be childless and alone for her entire life, and God will stand by and allow this to happen.

 

[Sheadad]

I’m aware of the Catholic Church’s interpretation on this matter. It should be noted that other Churches, with Apostolic Succession, do not have the same interpretation.

The no-divorce/no-remarriage issue is a tough one, because of its consequences. For me, it is difficult to accept that, say, a valid marriage could occur, the husband can subsequently abuse the wife, cheat, and refuse to have children, and then the innocent spouse has to spend the rest of her life childless and alone. Accepting the Catholic Church’s position means that indeed that the wife will be childless and alone for her entire life, and God will stand by and allow this to happen.

Well first of all, of course other Churches don’t have the same intpretation, that’s why they left the church to start their own in the first place. Man will always try to excuse himself, Proverbs 28:26," [26] He that trusteth in his own heart, is a fool: but he that walketh wisely, he shall be saved.".

Secondly, I can almost guarantee you that in your example, that union wasn’t a valid marriage from the beginning. But for arguments sake, if it were and the woman is meant to spend her life childless and alone, this is not the Church imposing that on her. The Church is interpreting for us Christ’s message of what a sacramental union is. She would still be married to him even if they are living separately and even if he marries another. Does this seem unfair to her? Of course, however please don’t take God out of the equation. His will is sure to reveal itself through prayer on her part. St. Paul talks about giving thanks and praying for that matter, in Thesselonians 5:19 5:20. Her faith in this situation and all others will extinguish Satin’s folly. We’re all subject to this kind of lives in various degrees thanks to Adam, but with His help, we have a narrow way through.

 

[Rock_Happy]

My understanding from Catholic friends is that one merely needs to ask for an annulment. Is this true? This points to one of the recurring themes on this site, that the Church may not change doctrine, in some people’s opinion, but the application of the doctrine allows extremely wide latitude.