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Pope_Noah_I
Guest
And the Tridentine Mass will come back completely?
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Melchior
Guest
I hope not. The idea behind the changes in VII were good and had good motives. Mass in the vernacular that is beautiful is in my mind, the ideal. It can be done amazingly. Just visit any high church Anglican parish to see how it should be done.
I do think beautiful English should be used and guitars and hippy music should be banned from the Mass. It should be solemn and sacred and the music, incense etc should reflect the importance of the occasion. Bring back chant and the ancient hymns. Wighty theology is in them. I can’t stand the trite ditties from the 70’s and 80’s.
Mel
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NewUlm1976_2000
Guest
No, the Church as a whole has moved ahead to the present. While TLM will never go away, the NO will also never go away and VII will not be rolled back.
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BobP123
Guest
In other words, whatever changes it takes to suit you. How nice.
Hey, the Anglicans aren’t Catholic. Not yet anyway. There’s a reason for that.
To the OP: No but then you never know. Another Pope Leo may come along soon.
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bear06
Guest
Pot meet kettle.
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mainusch
Guest
Guitars are good enough for heaven, but not good enough for the mass? (See Rev 14:2)
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thechrismyster
Guest
this traditional Catholic forum should be abolished. it creates schism and divides the faithful.
In fact, i call on Catholic Answers to do away with the 'Traditional Catholic" forum, right now, right here. You promote the ideology of a group that is hypercritical of major Chuch councils as well as the normative style of liturgy.
In fact, i call on Catholic Answers to do away with the 'Traditional Catholic" forum, right now, right here. You promote the ideology of a group that is hypercritical of major Chuch councils as well as the normative style of liturgy.
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jrabs
Guest
I also love the mass in English. So, no - I am hoping it stays. 
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Dauphin
Guest
The NO won’t so much be abolished as it will gradually fade. Confronted with the true liturgy of the ages, no recent human invention can last long. Within two generations, this watered-down Mass will be gone. The good elements of the NO will linger on, though, to be integrated into the liturgy of the ages.
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brigid12
Guest
Actually, VII did not indicate a mass like what we’ve got in the NO. Actually, the most accurate enunciation of what VII requested in terms of a mass seems to have been the transitional mass of 1965, at least that is what is seen by non-progressive liturgists that I’ve read as the most compatible with the VII docs. Also, interestingly, someone on this forum stated that Bugnini (the man responsible for actually writing the NO at Pope Paul VI’s request) was sent to a diocesan-backwater immediately on finishing it.
That said, I have been to reverent NO’s (hard to find, but possible) however have never been to a TLM (only watched CD of it). The only one available around here is in a sede chapel which I don’t think I should go to. It doesn’t look as if this diocese will see more than 1 (in a nursing home chapel) for a number of years, and the diocese is HUGE.
Also, an Anglo-Catholic parish is, unfortunately, the closest many of us can find to a beautiful, reverent service. When I converted from being Anglo-Catholic it was a good thing that I wasn’t converting for the liturgy (although I didn’t expect it to be worse - other than, of course, having a valid Eucharist). I must say, that liturgically speaking I was disappointed.
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jrabs
Guest
See, I find this statement to be highly insulting to the mass that most Catholics attend at present.
I love the mass. If one is focused and reverently participates, then it is not a watered down celebration at all.
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dessert
Guest
I also believed this in the beginning that it wouldn’t leave , but now I’m not so sure.
Our liturgy is changing to make it available to the Latin, and I’m in a NO, our priest doesn’t know a bit of it but who can say the next one or two will be trained in it, kind of like back to the future but when you are old enough like me you will see history repeat itself over and over and over again.
Alas, I just really love the mass what ever the Lord is there.
At the least it will fade, which I agree, and depending what the Holy Father does in the next year(s) time he is our Holy Father he seems to be trying to move quickly and we will see the effects for years to come after he has gone to Jesus.
D.
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bear06
Guest
I think you’re overreacting. I’d just suggest that if it causes you so much anger that you don’t read it. People should have a place to discuss the Traditional Mass. I’d suggest re-implementing the “no discussing the Novus Ordo rule” though. This is supposed to be a place to discuss Traditional Catholicism. Too bad people can’t do this.l
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Dauphin
Guest
The reality is that the Mass has been watered down. The key architect of the new Mass, Archbishop Bugnini, admitted it!
“We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.”
L’Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965.
It can’t be denied that the NO Mass was “stripped” down of its more Catholic elements in order to appeal to protestants. When the Chief architect of the New Mass says it, how can you deny it??
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captaincoog
Guest
That’s the problem. How can one focus and reverently participate when one must constantly process the audible prayers of the Priest? Aren’t all the prayers of the Mass directed to God the Father? The Priest is our mediator before Almighty God. He can hear the whispered prayers of the Priest at the Altar. Are we really participating more fully (as intended by V2) because we can hear what is being said? I have found the opposite to be true.
Unfortunatley I find the NO, even a good NO, quite distracting now I have been spoiled with the ancient liturgy that nourished the Catholic world up until a few decades ago.
I have to keep forcing myself back to the mystery and awe of the Mass, as it doesn’t happen as naturally in a man-made liturgy. I do not question the validity of the NO Sacrifice in the slightest, but the setting of it leaves much to be desired.
I agree with a previous poster who said it will eventually fade away and the traditional Liturgy will undergo some minor changes that the Council hoped for. We are still awaiting the liturgical reforms proposed by the Council. The last forty years are not the fruit of the intentions of V2.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
No.
I rather think the two things will happen:
- the TLM will continue to grow with more and more supporters.
- “Reform of the reform” movements will continue to garner strength and the Ordinary form through a progression of new missals will begin to look a lot more like the traditional rite.
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paramedicgirl
Guest
Is your logical next step to then get rid of all the traditionalists?
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thechrismyster
Guest
you’re right. i was just being overly dramatic. I guess i visit this side of the forum too often.
I’ve gone from being lukewarm about traditionalists to completely annoyed by them. no one else, the rest of CA is awesome. but the traditionalists… they’re pushy.
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Melchior
Guest
Please don’t put words in my mouth. A little education on liturgics would show you that and Anglo-Catholic Mass is closer to the old mass than the Novus Ordo. t was a statement of fact not preference.
They are not Catholic, true. But their superior liturgy (in recent times) is not the reason why. Did you know there is an Anglican Use Catholic Mass?
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Melchior
Guest
Guitars in the Bible? What translation are you reading?
Clasical guitar would be fine as it can be reverent. Lame hippy tunes strummed out in Mass is not fitting for the occasion, for the same reason you don’t play childrens birthday songs at a wedding.
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