Do you think the Reformation was a way of putting the Church in its place?

[MH84]

This question seemed develop as I read some posts in another thread about someone who had lost faith in the Church. Hopefully, he/she is in the right direction now.

I don’t know all that much about the Church’s history, but I feel a sense of pride when I think about how influencial the Church came to be, and all of the people like St. Thomas Aqinas and St Thomas Beckett who were great and learned members of the Church. And especially, how the Church has left such influence on the lives of most Christian countries. I have a rough idea about the results of a few of the Church Council, like Nicea; I know the reason the Crusades were launched; the players in the Reformation ie. Luther, Swingli, Calvin and so forth. I have learnt a lot as well from reading posts from you guys and gals on this forum.

I also know that the Church started from humble beginnings, and that it was heavily persecuted until Christianity was accepted by Rome. Then it went on to be the offical religion of the Roman Empire. Even though I know events like the Crusades and the whole Inquisition were seemingly not Gospel-like you could say, I still feel a sense of pride about the power of the Church. That’s just how I feel.

**Anyway, do you think that the Church was existing too politically and that too many members in the Church were corrupt or were not acting as shepherds for the people by the time Luther wrote down his 95 theses against the Church? I have heard also that some priests or monks were not really knowledgeable in the faith and were not living as they should, and that some bishops were worldly ambitious and powerful.

And do you think the Church needed to be revitalised or at least put in its place so to speak? Do you think the Reformation was important for the spiritual well-being of the Church in some way, looking back in hindsight?**

 

[2ndGen]

The long and short of it is no.

No man could put God’s Church in it’s place.

You have to go back to before The Reformation and see what led to such a deficiency of clergy in The Church.

The Dark Ages (through the Black Plague) wiped out a full 1/3 of the clergy (including nuns, friars, etc… ) because The Catholic Church was the only institution tending to the needs of the dieing throughout Europe.

This (to me) was an obvious attack on The Church from Satan.

But it failed.

If anything, The Church became stronger.

And thus proved that it is The Church of Christ.

It is the house built upon rock that survived the storms while the other houses have collapsed into fragments of the original attempt at reforming God’s Church.

Matthew 7.

 

[Dauphin]

Protestantism is principally a product of the sins of Catholics. If we had always had good Popes who were always interested in the integrity of the faith, it’s very unlikely that the split would have ever occurred.

It is the sins of Catholic leaders of the time and the initial protestant reformers that now separate hundreds of millions of Christians from communion with the Successor of Peter. It is a great scandal that is very much on their heads. It was an act of men, not of God.

 

[MH84]

This (to me) was an obvious attack on The Church from Satan.

But it failed.

If anything, The Church became stronger.

And thus proved that it is The Church of Christ.

What do you mean Protestantism “failed”? Isnt it stronger than ever as well? The numbers going around is that there are possibly 30000 denominations of Christianity on this earth.

When the Church was more influencial, it would have tried to put a stop to all these denominations from arising, because these groups are spreading heresy.

 

[MH84]

Protestantism is principally a product of the sins of Catholics. If we had always had good Popes who were always interested in the integrity of the faith, it’s very unlikely that the split would have ever occurred.

It is the sins of Catholic leaders of the time and the initial protestant reformers that now separate hundreds of millions of Christians from communion with the Successor of Peter. It is a great scandal that is very much on their heads. It was an act of men, not of God.

You seemed to be supporting the fact that many leaders of the Church were not being faithful to their Office. I don’t really know enough about the Popes to be able to have a well formed opinion about the ones who were not good role models. But I have heard that some influencial members of the Church (bishops, priests) were not meeting the spiritual needs of the people.

But then you say that the Protestantism split was purely a human fault. Don’t you think the Church would have kept going down this path, if this speedhump in the Church’s history wasnt in the way?

Sort of (and I mean sort of), like a person who has some problems, and he needs to hit rock bottom before he can recover again or at least so that he can realise what a mess he is in.

 

[MH84]

Another question/thought I would like to add is, do you think that there would be as many Christians in the world if post-Protestant religions were not around? Would Islam be more prevalent now?

I have never been to America, but from what I hear most Christians are not Catholic. Would America be a “Christian” country if it wasnt for these Protestant-based religions?

Maybe this is God’s way of bringing as many people as possible to His Son.

 

[Dauphin]

You seemed to be supporting the fact that many leaders of the Church were not being faithful to their Office. I don’t really know enough about the Popes to be able to have a well formed opinion about the ones who were not good role models. But I have heard that some influencial members of the Church (bishops, priests) were not meeting the spiritual needs of the people.

But then you say that the Protestantism split was purely a human fault. Don’t you think the Church would have kept going down this path, if this speedhump in the Church’s history wasnt in the way?

Sort of (and I mean sort of), like a person who has some problems, and he needs to hit rock bottom before he can recover again or at least so that he can realise what a mess he is in.

I think there’s something to that. Divine providence orders all of history for the greater glory of God. All things - even evil things -are ordered to to this supreme end.

 

[MH84]

Another point I want to add : I have heard that the Church was very Church-centred before.But now people in the Church seem to be more Christ-centered, except maybe traditional Catholics, but I don’t know about them.

For example, there was a lot of emphasis that salvation is in the Church only. Now if you read the Catechism, it includes Muslims and others who may be able to receive salvation. I might not be 100% right. However, I bet you what was being taught from the pulpit 500 yrs ago, was that God had less tolerance for “heretics” and that only Catholics could receive salvation.

Btw, I believe at this stage of my thinking that everyone is able to receive salvation and that is totally dependent on the choice of God. I don’t think that a Protestant or even a non-believer is necessarily “in a worse of position” that a Catholic. However, I think those in the Church are able to receive way more accurate guidance and the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and the mercy of the Sacrament of Reconcilialtion.

I think it is somewhere in St. Paul’s letters that he says that if a wife is Christian she makes up for the lack of belief of a non-believing husband, and vice versa. I think this can apply to others ie. not necessarily spouses. Lets pray that this is true. There are so many who are not part of the Church whom we love and care for.

 

[2ndGen]

What do you mean Protestantism “failed”? Isnt it stronger than ever as well? The numbers going around is that there are possibly 30000 denominations of Christianity on this earth.

 

[2ndGen]

Another question/thought I would like to add is, do you think that there would be as many Christians in the world if post-Protestant religions were not around? Would Islam be more prevalent now?

I have never been to America, but from what I hear most Christians are not Catholic. Would America be a “Christian” country if it wasnt for these Protestant-based religions?

Maybe this is God’s way of bringing as many people as possible to His Son.

The US is a protestant country founded by protestants for protestants (that’s why abortion and prostitution and all that is legal).

We are the minority here. There are about 70 million Catholics VS 180 million protestants, but Catholis make up the largest single religion here precisely because we “are” united.

World wide however, there are about 800 million protestants and 1.3 Billion (with a capitor “B”) Catholic Christians. If you lump in the Anglicans and the Orthodox with us, then that knocks down the protestant number down to only 600 million.

As for “what if”?

It was The Catholic Church that brought Christianity to the world…1500 years “before” protestantism was a mistake in Luther’s ego.

 

[MH84]

Satan attempting to bring down The Church failed.

As for Protestantism being stronger than ever, if division is how you measure strength, then you’re correct.

It’s not how I would measure strength nor success.

In fact, Jesus’ wish was that we would all be “one” as He and The Father are “One”.

It always has put stops to heresy, but because the protestant revolt had more to do with racism and with politics than with religion, The Church was right to stay out of the fray and to focus on The Counter Reformation.

Smartest thing She ever did was to get out of politics.

I think that besides God, the bible is what holds them all together.

In regards to the prayer of Jesus, we have to be careful with its interpretation. Do you really think Catholics are one as the Father and the Son are one? I dont think so!

You have to admit that the Church must have wanted to keep the power it had. I also think that the Church had no choice but to leave political matters to the State.

 

[MH84]

It always has put stops to heresy, but because the protestant revolt had more to do with racism and with politics than with religion, The Church was right to stay out of the fray and to focus on The Counter Reformation.

So the Counter Reformation was a postive from the Reformation! There you go.

 

[cyberjacques]

No man could put God’s Church in it’s place.

…

It is the house built upon rock that survived the storms while the other houses have collapsed into fragments of the original attempt at reforming God’s Church.

Well said!

Protestantism is principally a product of the sins of Catholics. If we had always had good Popes who were always interested in the integrity of the faith, it’s very unlikely that the split would have ever occurred.

It is the sins of Catholic leaders of the time and the initial protestant reformers that now separate hundreds of millions of Christians from communion with the Successor of Peter. It is a great scandal that is very much on their heads. It was an act of men, not of God.

I’ve heard this argument before, but I have yet to hear any real examples of what those sins were. They assume that not all Popes have been concerned with the integrity of the faith and such. Once again, no examples. People usually just bring up indulgences, revealing that they misunderstand the practice as badly as Luther did. Some of the other things he had a problem with were things his local bishops were doing that Rome was already dealing with, but not as fast as he would like. Which means that Luther split from the Church based on the actions of a handful of Catholics, not the Church as a whole. Protestants have been following that example ever since. They think that if there’s one bad apple, all the others must already be spoiled. Regardless of the long transit time for messages going from one end of Europe to the other, he was too impatient with Rome and decided that the Pope was the enemy.

Not many people know this, including Catholics, but Martin Luther actually realized shortly before he died how wrong he had been, and started the process of coming back into communion with Rome. He saw the fruits of his labor spawning into hundreds of little groups, all believing that they were better than all the others. He was quoted as saying something to the effect of, “I set out to destroy one Pope and ended up creating thousands.” Most people don’t realize that the Protestant movement began fissioning almost immediately, and at a viral rate. Sadly, Luther died before he could be officially accepted back into the Church.

 

[2ndGen]

Protestantism is principally a product of the sins of Catholics. If we had always had good Popes who were always interested in the integrity of the faith, it’s very unlikely that the split would have ever occurred.

It is the sins of Catholic leaders of the time and the initial protestant reformers that now separate hundreds of millions of Christians from communion with the Successor of Peter. It is a great scandal that is very much on their heads. It was an act of men, not of God.

That reminds me of the cop-out of Adam when He immediately tried to blame Eve for partaking of The Fruit.

No pope commanded any man to go and start their own religion.

Period.

Let each man be responsible for their own actions.

Why were only those Catholics that left the church wrong?

And what did the popes have to do with their own actions?

Martin Luther hunted down his partner in crime (Zwingli) and tried to have him burned at the stake…what did any pope have to do with that?

Once they broke away from The Church they were doomed because of Mattew 7:
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Only One Church was built upon The Rock…Peter. The Catholic Church.

All other churches were built upon sand (aka soil or what man is made of)…they were built not upon the foundation of The Apostles and The Prophets, but upon “men”.

And that’s why they failed in “reforming” The Universal Christian Church.

Of course, this is ancient history as far as I’m concerned and I wouldn’t dare judge my non-Catholic Christian brethren by the actions of their church fathers.

There is a quote in one of my favorite movies (Kingdom Of Heaven) that goes something to the effect that:

King Baldwin IV
"When you stand before God you cannot say
‘but I was told by others to do thus’
or that “virtue was not convinient at the time.
This will not suffice.
Remember that.”

 

[2ndGen]

Well said!.

Thank you.

 

[2ndGen]

Well said!

I’ve heard this argument before, but I have yet to hear any real examples of what those sins were. They assume that not all Popes have been concerned with the integrity of the faith and such. Once again, no examples. People usually just bring up indulgences, revealing that they misunderstand the practice as badly as Luther did. Some of the other things he had a problem with were things his local bishops were doing that Rome was already dealing with, but not as fast as he would like. Which means that Luther split from the Church based on the actions of a handful of Catholics, not the Church as a whole. Protestants have been following that example ever since. They think that if there’s one bad apple, all the others must already be spoiled. Regardless of the long transit time for messages going from one end of Europe to the other, he was too impatient with Rome and decided that the Pope was the enemy.

Not many people know this, including Catholics, but Martin Luther actually realized shortly before he died how wrong he had been, and started the process of coming back into communion with Rome. He saw the fruits of his labor spawning into hundreds of little groups, all believing that they were better than all the others. He was quoted as saying something to the effect of, “I set out to destroy one Pope and ended up creating thousands.” Most people don’t realize that the Protestant movement began fissioning almost immediately, and at a viral rate. Sadly, Luther died before he could be officially accepted back into the Church.

I’m working on a Thread for that!

I’ve found out a lot about Marty!

You do know now that the same man who spawned The 5 Solas is now being disavowed by modern day protestants just like the Jehovah’s Witnesses act as if they never heard of Charles “Miracle Wheat” Taze Russell.

Luther, he had “much” to say about the divisions even going as far as to say that he never meant for any schism and literally stated that it is wrong to attempt to repair what was wrong with “some” members in the heirchy by trying to divide The Church.

In the end however, the protestants had their eyes set on The Church’s possessions and promptly began to loot The Churches, murder the Priests and Clergy and even maraude Rome when they hired German mercenaries to sack it (killing 8,000 women and children in the process).

And this is the Papacy’s fault, how?

 

[MH84]

The US is a protestant country founded by protestants for protestants (that’s why abortion and prostitution and all that is legal).

Presuming that you’re an American, you would know better than me, but I always thought that bible Christians are strongly opposed to abortion. I thought that it was some of the liberals from mainstream Christianity that were pro-choice.

 

[MH84]

Luther, he had “much” to say about the divisions even going as far as to say that he never meant for any schism and literally stated that it is wrong to attempt to repair what was wrong with “some” members in the heirchy than to try to divide The Church.

I don’t think Luther intended to start his own church when he posted the 95 theses. But after the Diet of Worms, the split between him and the church grew out of hand. He must have then needed to get power from royalty who were opposed to the Pope. And the rest is history.

 

[2ndGen]

So the Counter Reformation was a postive from the Reformation! There you go.

Actually, the Counter Reformation had it’s roots not “after” the reformation, but before with the great Spiritualists like Loyola.

It was underway “before” the reformation attempt.

The reformation produced no good fruit whatsoever, therefore, it was “not” of God.

Would Christianity had been better off without it?

Absolutely. Subtract all of the dead in the name of Christian upon Christian wars and all of the misled today.

 

[2ndGen]

I don’t think Luther intended to start his own church when he posted the 95 theses. But after the Diet of Worms, the split between him and the church grew out of hand. He must have then needed to get power from royalty who were opposed to the pope. And the rest is history.

Actually, King Henry IIIV had long been eager to break away from the Church and used the reformation as a way to start a war against The Church.

Then the other countries jumped right in and dogpiled upon them.

But we all know what happened with Henry and the other Kings who had issues with having to be subject to a “Roman” Pope. Thus began to be born all the “ethnic” churches that excluded persons of color (the church of England, the Lutherans, etc…) and protestantism was divided by race and nationalities (exactly what Christ “undid” when He came here).