Do you think the Reformation was a way of putting the Church in its place?

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Presuming that you’re an American, you would know better than me, but I always thought that bible Christians are strongly opposed to abortion. I thought that it was some of the liberals from mainstream Christianity that were pro-choice.
Most protestants are pro-abortion.

Only a minority of protestants are in accordance with The Church on abortion.

Again, this is a protestant country.

Whatever goes here is under the approval of the majority of those who rule it.

Yes…I am an American.

🙂
 
That reminds me of the cop-out of Adam when He immediately tried to blame Eve for partaking of The Fruit.
I don’t think it’s a cop-out to suggest that errors were made on both sides. Clearly, the greatest error was made by the reformers, who split from the Church founded by Christ.
 
I don’t think it’s a cop-out to suggest that errors were made on both sides. Clearly, the greatest error was made by the reformers, who split from the Church founded by Christ.
Yeah, but the errors of any pope are not to be used as an excuse to split Christianity.

I’m in no way defending any pope that did wrong, but unless they were an anti-pope, they had the legitimate right to be there.

Jesus faced this issue when He taught His followers to adhere to the teachings of The Pharisees, but to not do what they themselves did “outside” of their offices as Leaders for they rightfully held the Seat of Moses (teaching authority) and when they taught, they taught without error.

It was their rejection of Christ that lost them their authority.

Matthew 23:
1
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2
Saying “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;
but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.”

Ultimately, our own lives are in our hands.
 
Most protestants are pro-abortion.

Only a minority of protestants are in accordance with The Church on abortion.

Again, this is a protestant country.

Whatever goes here is under the approval of the majority of those who rule it.

Yes…I am an American.

🙂
Though, it’s important to keep in mind that Protestant support of abortion is a relatively new thing. It’s the result of the liberalization of Christianity. The inevitable result of Protestant drift, which is accelerating. I mean, look at the current Anglican madness. They’re more concerned with being as popular and un-Catholic as possible, fitting in with and submitting to contemporary culture, that they forget there’s even such a thing as objective, unchanging Truth. Gay clergy, Muslim clergy, supporting abortion, redefining the Trinity. But the one good side effect of Protestant drift is that it keeps driving more and more people back to the Church, as they get more and more warped.
 
Though, it’s important to keep in mind that Protestant support of abortion is a relatively new thing. It’s the result of the liberalization of Christianity. The inevitable result of Protestant drift, which is accelerating. I mean, look at the current Anglican madness. They’re more concerned with being as popular and un-Catholic as possible, fitting in with and submitting to contemporary culture, that they forget there’s even such a thing as objective, unchanging Truth. Gay clergy, Muslim clergy, supporting abortion, redefining the Trinity. But the one good side effect of Protestant drift is that it keeps driving more and more people back to the Church, as they get more and more warped.
Muslim clergy? That’s a new one for me! You must be kidding! :eek: The Anglicans ordain Muslims now?
 
Though, it’s important to keep in mind that Protestant support of abortion is a relatively new thing. It’s the result of the liberalization of Christianity. The inevitable result of Protestant drift, which is accelerating. I mean, look at the current Anglican madness. They’re more concerned with being as popular and un-Catholic as possible, fitting in with and submitting to contemporary culture, that they forget there’s even such a thing as objective, unchanging Truth. Gay clergy, Muslim clergy, supporting abortion, redefining the Trinity. But the one good side effect of Protestant drift is that it keeps driving more and more people back to the Church, as they get more and more warped.
I see a hunkering down of conservative Christians of all denominations VS the liberals.

Sheep and goats.

Devout VS Cafeteria Christians.

The fight over abortion has brought many Baptists into fellowship with Catholics and has opened many doors of dialogue.

I believe that when things get really bad, the sheep find and gravitate towards the sheep.
 
Muslim clergy? That’s a new one for me! You must be kidding! :eek: The Anglicans ordain Muslims now?
Yes, my friend, they sure do. Just a few months ago, shortly after ordaining the first openly homosexual priest, who was actually living with his gay lover, they ordained a female priest (not the first female Anglican priest) who claims to be both Christian and Muslim. Search for the news articles on it, they go into more detail. Unbelievable, huh?
 
I see a hunkering down of conservative Christians of all denominations VS the liberals.

Sheep and goats.

Devout VS Cafeteria Christians.

The fight over abortion has brought many Baptists into fellowship with Catholics and has opened many doors of dialogue.

I believe that when things get really bad, the sheep find and gravitate towards the sheep.
Absolutely right. The Bible goes into a fair amount of detail on how the polarization of society between the righteous and the wicked will happen. Even Jesus said that His gospel will divide households. It’s happening faster and faster.
 
But the one good side effect of Protestant drift is that it keeps driving more and more people back to the Church, as they get more and more warped.
Amen, I say to you. The Philippines is the only Catholic country in Asia but there are many denominations that are now coming out and is, by a snail’s pace, misleading our less knowledgeable brothers…
 
Amen, I say to you. The Philippines is the only Catholic country in Asia but there are many denominations that are now coming out and is, by a snail’s pace, misleading our less knowledgeable brothers…
It’s true that those other groups still have their converts, but their attrition rate is huge. Far more people are leaving many of those groups than are joining them, like the Anglicans and Mormons, and coming back to the Catholic Church. It’s funny, really, how the more off base they become, the more people leave, so they try to change into something they think will appeal to more people, becoming even more off base, and even more people leave. Talk about digging your own grave.

My stepmother is from the Philippines, and she and my dad go back every year. It has been their observation that the Catholic community is pretty strong, so the situation is hopeful.
 
[Sorry, off topic.]
My stepmother is from the Philippines
Really?, did she mention from what part of the Philippines?
and she and my dad go back every year.
Did you ever come with them?
It has been their observation that the Catholic community is pretty strong
Yes, it is, maybe. Notice this feast of the Black Nazarene recently held.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/353718644_1faadb8f19.jpg

so the situation is hopeful.
I do hope so. But most of us do not know how to defend their Faith if attacked by others. One minister of the # 1 sect that is attacking Catholicism here said, “It only took 50 years for us to tremble the foundations of Catholicism and in the next 50 years Philippines will no longer be a Catholic country.” Find out more of that sect/denomination here examineiglesianicristo.com/
 
I know that Iglesia Ni Christo claims to be the true church of Christ, like every other denomination. I think they are similar to Christadelphians.

Do you actually think that the Phillippines will become a Iglesia Ni Christo country? I highly doubt it. But without being there, I don’t know. But I can imagine that the percentage of the population that are Catholics could drop in fifty years.

The thing is, I think that a lot of Catholics in the Philippines are uneducated in their faith like in a lot of poorer countries. They have strong faith, but the groundwork, so to speak, is shaky. When someone comes along and challenges them about the Trinity, for instance, I can imagine a lot of people would be convinced that the doctrine is not true. They know how to use the bible to present their opinions.

I think it is in these situations where Our Lady is the key to perseverance in faith.
 
Don’t worry, iamACE, the Iglesia ni Cristo are nuts. They really are. They remind me of the JW’s in the way they interpret Biblical prophecy, and they are an ethnocentric religion, which never works. Their leader is a nut, he thinks he is the last messenger of God. It’s not even Christian, even though they claim to be. It’s a cult, and it looks like a pretty unstable one. I wouldn’t worry too much, just try and help as many Catholics as you can to prepare themselves to defend the faith.

I think my stepmom is from either Baguio or Laoag, I don’t remember which. I think it’s probably Laoag, since it’s right on the coast. I’ve never gone with them, but I would like to some day.
 
The thing is, I think that a lot of Catholics in the Philippines are uneducated in their faith like in a lot of poorer countries.
Very true. I pray that the ones who are wiser & knowledgeable in Faith here come up with the ways that the American Catholics are doing, such as the, RCIA or Micah Project.
They have strong faith, but the groundwork, so to speak, is shaky. When someone comes along and challenges them about the Trinity, for instance, I can imagine a lot of people would be convinced that the doctrine is not true.
The most common attack is on statues. Notice my pics above. That is INC’s favorite target
They know how to use the bible to present their opinions.
Familiar with Bible-Cutting?
I think it is in these situations where Our Lady is the key to perseverance in faith.
Always and forever, Amen.
 
Do you think the Reformation was important for the spiritual well-being of the Church in some way, looking back in hindsight?
NO. Everything was just ignited by an idea of a hard-headed Augustinian Monk… who, after all, in his deathbed, wanted to take back what he has done. The good thing is that Jesus assured His Church, Mt. 16:18-19 “And I tell you, you are Peter, the Rock, and upon this Rock, I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Luther, I think, was an instrument of hell.
 
Absolutely right. The Bible goes into a fair amount of detail on how the polarization of society between the righteous and the wicked will happen. Even Jesus said that His gospel will divide households. It’s happening faster and faster.
Matthew 25:
31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:

32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;

33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
 
well here are the facts.

for one-

King Henry the 8th was not granted an annulment from his wife Catnerine of Arragon

King Henry declared he was head of the Church and expelled the Catholic Church

In order to do this he gave the Aristocrats the Church land and property.

He made it illegal to be Aa Catholic

He made it illegal not to go to the Anglican Church on Sunday.

He enforced fines for those that did not to include imprisonment.

Priest that continued to say Mass he ahd arrested,and tortured to include the removal of intestines of these priests while still alive, and dismemberment (Quartered) with easc section of the body put in each corner of the village as a warning to others.

He had Sir Thomas Moore his good friend and financial counselor imprisoned and later be-headed for not declaring a King as religious leader.
 
2ndGen,

Greetings, my brother in Christ.

You wrote:
But we all know what happened with Henry and the other Kings who had issues with having to be subject to a “Roman” Pope. Thus began to be born all the “ethnic” churches that excluded persons of color (the church of England, the Lutherans, etc…) and protestantism was divided by race and nationalities (exactly what Christ “undid” when He came here).
While I agree that “ethnic” churches came into being – each political state setting up its own church – I don’t think you can attribute it to racism. A state church in Sweden, for example, would likely have been composed only of Swedes simply because they were the only people living in Sweden. Similarly, the Church of England, until England became a colonial power, was pretty much restricted to the English.

We can debate as to whether “state churches” should have existed but it wasn’t exactly a new idea – Constantine did much the same upon his conversion. And, certainly, the history of the people of Israel in the Hebrew scriptures was one in which Judaism was the religion of the whole people.

A big problem with state churches is that religion and politics became intertwined in a way that allowed the church (whether Protestant or Catholic) to deal with heresy rather forcefully yet keep its hand seemingly free of blood. While the church might declare a person a heretic, it was a law of the state that made heresy a capital offense and it was the state that would execute those who had been declared heretics by the church.

One need only look, for example, at the Council of Constance, where John Hus was declared a heretic and bound over to the secular authorities:
This holy synod therefore pronounces the said John Hus, on account of the aforesaid and many other matters, to have been a heretic and it judges him to be considered and condemned as a heretic, and it hereby condemns him. It rejects the said appeal of his as harmful and scandalous and offensive to the church’s jurisdiction. It declares that the said John Hus seduced the Christian people, especially in the kingdom of Bohemia, in his public sermons and in his writings; and that he was not a true preacher of Christ’s gospel to the same Christian people, according to the exposition of the holy doctors, but rather was a seducer. Since this most holy synod has learnt from what it has seen and heard, that the said John Hus is obstinate and incorrigible and as such does not desire to return to the bosom of holy mother the church, and is unwilling to abjure the heresies and errors which he has publicly defended and preached, this holy synod of Constance therefore declares and decrees that the same John Hus is to be deposed and degraded from the order of the priesthood and from the other orders held by him. It charges the reverend fathers in Christ, the archbishop of Milan and the bishops of Feltre Asti, Alessandria, Bangor and Lavour with duly carrying out the degradation in the presence of this most holy synod, in accordance with the procedure required by law.
and
This holy synod of Constance, seeing that God’s church has nothing more that it can do, relinquishes John Hus to the judgment of the secular authority and decrees that he is to be relinquished to the secular court.
The actions in other places, notably in England but not exclusive to the English, were much the same. If one was judged to be a heretic by whatever church was espoused by the government, one’s life could well be forfeit. In those times, heresy was treason when a state church was involved. The church, whether Protestant or Catholic, was complicit to the extent that it did not oppose (and, probably, approved) the execution of heretics.

I have gone on much further than my initial intentions for this post. I will look forward to reading your thoughts on this.
 
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