Do You Think The Reformation Was Necessary?

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Christ said he would never leave his Church w/o guidance, HS the Paraclete to guide it, and it would never fail.

What Protestant reformation church was he describing ?

Show us another that has existed since Pentecost 33 AD. Which church has a Catechism that can c/w Vatican 2’s.

There really are no other clear choices …
Indeed, Christ will never forsake his church, the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church (note the lower case ‘c’). Which has existed since 33ad and will continue to forever.

*1. The catholic or universal church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all. (a)

(a) Eph 1:10,22-23; Eph 5:23,27,32; Col 1:18
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  1. The visible church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion(b) and of their children, (c) and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,(d) the house and family of God, (e) out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.(f)
    (b) 1 Cor 1:2; 1 Cor 12:12-13; Ps 2:8; Rev 7:9; Rom 15:9-12
    (c) 1 Cor 7:14; Acts 2:39; Gen 17:7-12; Ezek 16:20-21; Rom 11:16; Gal 3:7,9,14; Rom 4:12,16,24
    (d) Matt 13:47; Isa 9:7; Luke 1:32-33; Acts 2:30-36; Col 1:13
    (e) Eph 2:19; Eph 3:15
    (f) Acts 2:47
  • In this case the Westiminister confession of faith helps clarify it well.*
You haven’t answered the question however; how do you know the RCC is the only true church? How do you know this ‘Infallibly’? Questions of ‘how do you know?’ or statements of ‘you need the Catholic Church to infallibly guide you’ don’t solve anything, they just push everything back a step, as now you need to answer how you know infallibly that Rome is right.

Kind regards

Lincs
 
Indeed, Christ will never forsake his church, the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church (note the lower case ‘c’). Which has existed since 33ad and will continue to forever.

*1. The catholic or universal church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all. (a)

(a) Eph 1:10,22-23; Eph 5:23,27,32; Col 1:18
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  1. The visible church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion(b) and of their children, (c) and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,(d) the house and family of God, (e) out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.(f)
    (b) 1 Cor 1:2; 1 Cor 12:12-13; Ps 2:8; Rev 7:9; Rom 15:9-12
    (c) 1 Cor 7:14; Acts 2:39; Gen 17:7-12; Ezek 16:20-21; Rom 11:16; Gal 3:7,9,14; Rom 4:12,16,24
    (d) Matt 13:47; Isa 9:7; Luke 1:32-33; Acts 2:30-36; Col 1:13
    (e) Eph 2:19; Eph 3:15
    (f) Acts 2:47
  • In this case the Westiminister confession of faith helps clarify it well.*
You haven’t answered the question however; how do you know the RCC is the only true church? How do you know this ‘Infallibly’? Questions of ‘how do you know?’ or statements of ‘you need the Catholic Church to infallibly guide you’ don’t solve anything, they just push everything back a step, as now you need to answer how you know infallibly that Rome is right.

Kind regards

Lincs
Well, history validates it was the first Church, that conquered the pagan Roman Empire.
Are you suggesting Christ would begin a good work in Her, and some 1500 yrs later ‘forsake’ Her ?
 
Well, history validates it was the first Church, that conquered the pagan Roman Empire.
Are you suggesting Christ would begin a good work in Her, and some 1500 yrs later ‘forsake’ Her ?
My reading of history presents me with a very different picture of what early Christianity looked like. And to me it did not look like modern Catholicism. This was my previous point, you accept Rome to be you infallible guide based only on your own private discernment of history, which I’m sure you will not claim as infallible.

Kind regards

Lincs
 
My reading of history presents me with a very different picture of what early Christianity looked like. And to me it did not look like modern Catholicism. This was my previous point, you accept Rome to be you infallible guide based only on your own private discernment of history, which I’m sure you will not claim as infallible.

Kind regards

Lincs
Well…the question back to you…Linc…who do you consider to be your infallible guide based on your own private discernment of history?
 
Scripture disproving sola Scriptura?

It’s a hermanutical principle, which simply posits scripture is our only infallible guide, not our only guide… So, to me the reformation had a necessary aspect in ensuring the church maintained this principle, so as to avoid serious diversions from apostolic teaching.

Lincs
Linc…can you explain how the Bible can be infallible? Infallible, or infallibity is an action word…so how can you aply an action word on the Bible?
 
I went back to the writings of Aquinas on these matters to see if I could better express the teaching, since all of this is very subtle, and errors are always seemingly truthful.

as a result of divine grace causing charity in us, it is also necessary for faith to be caused in us by grace. It is also possible to conclude from these reasons that it was necessary for faith to be a product in us of divine grace. Hence, the Apostle says to the Ephesians (2:8): “by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.”

Man also needs the help of divine grace so that he may persevere in the good. man is subject to variation, both from evil to good and from good to evil. So, in order that he may immovably continue in the good, which is to persevere, he needs divine help. But the power of free choice does not extend to the effect of final perseverance in the good. This is evident as follows. In fact, the power of free choice applies to those things which fall within the scope of election. Now, what is chosen is some particular operation that can be performed. But such a particular operation is what is here and now present. Hence, that which falls under the power of free choice is something that is to be done now. But to persevere does not mean something as now operable, but the continuation of an operation throughout time. Now, this effect, of persevering in the good, is beyond the power of free choice. Therefore, man needs the help of divine grace to persevere in the good.

Furthermore, if many things are ordered to one end, their entire order until they reach the end comes from the first agent directing them to the end. Now, in the case of a man who perseveres in the good there are many movements and many actions reaching to the end. So, the entire order of these movements and actions must be caused by the first agent directing them to the end. But we showed that they are directed by the help of divine grace to the ultimate end. Therefore, the entire order and continuity of good works, in him who perseveres in the good, is due to the help of divine grace. Hence, it is said to the Philippians (1:6): “He who hath begun a good work in you will perfect it unto the day of Christ Jesus”; …] However, we should note that even he who possesses grace asks God that he may persevere in the good. just as free choice is not sufficient without the external help of God, for this effect of persevering in the good, so neither is a habit infused in us enough for this purpose. For habits that are divinely infused in us during the present state of life do not take away entirely from free choice the possibility of being moved toward evil …]

From these considerations it is apparent that man, even if he does not persevere but falls into sin, may be restored to the good by the help of grace. Indeed, it pertains to the same power to maintain the continued salvation of a person and to restore it when it has been interrupted …] He does not need merit in the will in order to grant grace, for it is given without there being any merits, as we showed. Therefore, God can grant a person sanctifying grace, through which sins are removed, even after he has fallen from grace by sin. …]

On the same basis, it can be shown that man cannot revive from mortal sin except through grace. …] by mortal sin man is turned away from his ultimate end. But man is not ordered to his ultimate end except by grace. Since man cannot return to one member of a pair of contraries without moving away from the other extreme, he must, in order to return to the state of rectitude by means of grace, move away from the sin whereby he had swerved from rectitude. Now, the movement whereby one moves away from something is contrary to the movement whereby one approaches it …] it was inclined toward sin by appetition and enjoyment in regard to lower things. Therefore, it must move away from sin by means of certain penances whereby it suffers some injury because of the sin that it has committed. for the man who is rising again from sin, it is most necessary that he maintain the state of grace and the love of God carefully, for he lost them by sinning through negligence. …] Therefore, it is proper for him to endure labor and suffering for the sins that he has committed.

Moreover, the order of justice demands that a punishment be assigned for a sin. Now, the wisdom of the governance of God becomes evident from the fact that order is preserved in things. …] By this, then, it becomes evident that, after a man has secured remission of his sin by grace and has been brought back to the state of grace, he remains under an obligation, as a result of God’s justice, to some penalty for the sin that he has committed. Now, if he imposes this penalty on himself by his own will, he is said to make satisfaction to God by this: inasmuch as he attains with labor and punishment the divinely established order by punishing himself for the sin, which order he had transgressed by sinning through following his own will. But, if he does not exact this penalty of himself, then, since things subject to divine providence cannot remain disordered, this penalty will be inflicted on him by God. …] Hence, there is this statement of the Apostle in 1 Corinthians (11:31-32): “if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged, but whilst we are judged, we are chastised by the Lord, that we be not condemned with this world.” …]

just as a person can make satisfaction to God by himself, so also can he do it through another person, especially in case of necessity. one person can make satisfaction for another provided both abide in charity. Hence, the Apostle says in Galatians (6:2): “Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so you shall fulfill the law of Christ.”
 
if, through a preceding disorder, one swerves toward evil, it will not at all be within his power to offer no impediment to grace. For, though at any definite instant he may be able to refrain from a particular act of sin by his own power, however, if long left to himself, he will fall into sin, whereby an impediment is offered to grace. …] after sin a man cannot refrain from all sin during the period preceding his being brought back to the proper order by grace. …] so, if it be inclined toward sin, it will not long stay without sinning, thus offering an impediment to grace, unless it is brought back to the state of rectitude.

Now, although grace is bestowed upon men by the aforesaid sacraments, they are not, for all that, rendered incapable of sin. …] It seems superfluous to warn those not to sin who cannot sin. But in the evangelical and apostolic teaching the faithful are so admonished, although they have already received the grace of the Holy Spirit through the sacraments, for we read in Hebrews (12:15): “Looking diligently, lest any man be wanting to the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up do hinder”; and in Ephesians (4:30): “Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God whereby you are sealed”; and again: “He that thinks himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. io=). Even the Apostle himself says of himself: “I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” (1 Cor. 9:27).

This excludes the error of certain heretics who say that man, after he has received the grace of the Spirit, is unable to sin, and that, if he sins, he never had the grace of the Holy Spirit. They take, however, as a prop for their error the saying …] “Whosoever is born of God commits not sin; for His seed abides in him, and he cannot sin use he is born of God.” But for establishing their proposition these texts are not effective. the remarks taken from the Epistle of John are said for this reason: The gifts of the Holy Spirit by which a man is adopted or born again as a son of God have of themselves power enough to be able to preserve a man without sin, and a man cannot sin who lives by those gifts. He can, for all that, act against them, and sin by departing from them. For “whosoever is born of God… cannot sin” was said just as though one should say that “the hot cannot cool.” What is hot, nevertheless, can be made cool, and then it will make cool.

the Novatians …] used to deny forgiveness to those who sinned after baptism. Now, they used to set down as the occasion of their error the saying in Hebrews (6:4-6): “It is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, and are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance.”

But the sense in which the Apostle said this is apparent from what is immediately added: “Crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making Him a mockery.” Therefore, the reason why those who have fallen after receiving grace cannot be renewed again to penance is that the Son of God must not be crucified again. One, therefore, denies to them that renewal again to penance in which a man is crucified along with Christ. And this indeed is in baptism, for we read: “All we who are baptized in Christ Jesus are baptized in His death” (Rom. 6:3). Therefore, as Christ must not be crucified once again, so he who sins after baptism must not be baptized again. Nonetheless, he can be converted to grace once again by penance. Hence, the Apostle did not say it was impossible that those once fallen should again be recalled or converted to penance, but impossible that they be “renewed”—which one usually attributes to baptism.
 
RC…

So glad you brought up Hebrews 4:4-6 …with explanation. I think if we & Protestants understand word ‘renew’ …as Rebirth…we can understand what Paul (prob. Author) is saying.
We can’t be REBORN twice …but, we can be recovered again …as in case of Prodigal son.

Do u agree … that word rebirth ( as translation) clarifies ?
 
Why or Why not?
Oh no, it was not necessary and caused horrible deaths and great spiritual loss. As a former protestent I have found in the Catholic church more than I had ever dreamed of. It is the center of my life. Imagine a time when devotion to the Church could bring violence down on you and your family. No, if people so wanted to leave their spiritual home, there must have been a better way for that to happen. Rose4Mary
 
Oh no, it was not necessary and caused horrible deaths and great spiritual loss. As a former protestent I have found in the Catholic church more than I had ever dreamed of. It is the center of my life. Imagine a time when devotion to the Church could bring violence down on you and your family. No, if people so wanted to leave their spiritual home, there must have been a better way for that to happen. Rose4Mary
Welcome ! …ur first post on CAF ?
 
Considered as an act (actus justificationis), justification is the work of God alone, presupposing, however, on the part of the adult the process of justification and the cooperation of his free will with God’s preventing and helping grace (gratia praeveniens et cooperans). Considered as a state or habit (habitus justificationis), it denotes the continued possession of a quality inherent in the soul, which theologians aptly term sanctifying grace.

The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, cap. vi, and can. xii) decrees that not the fiduciary faith, but a real mental act of faith, consisting of a firm belief in all revealed truths makes up the faith of justification and the “beginning, foundation, and source” of justification. What did the Reformers with Luther understand by fiduciary faith? They understood thereby not the first or fundamental deposition or preparation for the (active) justification, but merely the spiritual grasp (instrumentum) with which we seize and lay hold of the external justice of Christ and with it, as with a mantle of grace, cover our sins (which still continue to exist interiorly) in the infallible, certain belief (fiducia) that God, for the sake of Christ, will no longer hold our sin against us. Hereby the seat of justifying faith is transferred from the intellect to the will; and faith itself, in as far as it still abides in the intellect, is converted into a certain belief in one’s own justification.

The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. ix) decrees that over and above the faith which formally dwells in the intellect, other acts of predisposition, arising from the will, such as fear, hope, love, contrition, and good resolution, are necessary for the reception of the grace of justification. This definition was made by the council as against the second fundamental error of Protestantism, namely that “faith alone justifies”.

According to Luther, the faith that justifies is not a firm belief in God’s revealed truths and promises (fides theoretica, dogmatica), but is the infallible conviction (fides fiducialis, fiducia) that God for the sake of Christ will no longer impute to us our sins, but will consider and treat us, as if we were really just and holy, although in our inner selves we remain the same sinners as before. Cf. Solid. Declar. III, sec. 15: “Through the obedience of Christ by faith the just are so declared and reputed, although by reason of their corrupt nature they still are and remain, sinners as long as they bear this mortal body.”

Luther for many times applauded good works, but recognized them only as necessary concomitants, not as efficient dispositions, for justification. Luther was surprised to find himself by his unprecedented doctrine in direct contradiction to the Bible, therefore he rejected the Epistle of St. James as “of straw” and into the text of St. Paul to the Romans (3:28) he boldly inserted the word “alone”. This was not in the spirit of the Apostle’s teaching, for nowhere does St. Paul teach that faith alone (without charity) will bring justification, even though we should accept as also Pauline the text given in a different context, that supernatural faith alone justifies but the fruitless works of the Jewish Law do not. In this statement St. Paul emphasizes the fact that grace is purely gratuitous; that no merely natural good works can merit grace; but he does not state that no other acts in their nature and purport predisposing are necessary for justification over and above the requisite faith.

If Luther’s interpretation were allowed to stand, then St. Paul would come into direct contradiction not only with St. James (ii, 24 sqq.), but also with himself; for, except St. John, the favourite Apostle, he is the most outspoken of all Apostles in proclaiming the necessity and excellence of charity over faith in the matter of justification (cf. 1 Corinthians 13:1 sqq.). Whenever faith justifies it is not faith alone, but faith made operative and replenished by charity (cf. Galatians 5:6, “fides, quae per caritatem operatur”). In the plainest language the Apostle St. James says this: “ex operibus justificatur homo, et non ex fide tantum” (James 2:2); and here, by works, he does not understand the pagan good works to which St. Paul refers in the Epistle to the Romans, or the works done in fulfilment of the Jewish Law, but the works of salvation made possible by the operation of supernatural grace, which was recognized by St. Augustine (lib. LXXXIII, Q. lxxvi n. 2).

In conformity with this interpretation and with this only is the tenor of the Scriptural doctrine, namely, that over and above faith other acts are necessary for justification, such as fear (Ecclus., i, 28), and hope (Romans 8:24), charity (Luke 7:47), penance with contrition (Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38; 3:19), almsgiving (Daniel 4:24; Tob., xii, 9). Without charity and the works of charity faith is dead. Faith receives life only from and through charity (James 2:2). Only to dead faith (fides informis) is the doctrine applied: “Faith alone does not justify”.

On the other hand, faith informed by charity (fides formata) has the power of justification. St. Augustine (On the Holy Trinity XV.18) expresses it thus: “Sine caritate quippe fides potest quidem esse, sed non et prodesse.” We see that from the very beginning the Church has taught that not only faith but that a sincere conversion of heart effected by charity and contrition is also requisite for justification–witness the regular method of administering baptism and the discipline of penance in the early Church.

— continued —
 
Martin Luther and Calvin taught very logically that a sinner is justified by fiduciary faith, in such a way, however, that sin is not absolutely removed or wiped out, but merely covered up or not held against the sinner. According to the teaching of the Catholic Church, however, in active justification an actual and real forgiveness of sins takes place so that the sin is really removed from the soul, not only original sin by baptism but also mortal sin by the sacrament of penance. This view is entirely consonant with the teaching of Holy Scripture, for the Biblical expressions: “blotting out” as applied to sin (Ps 1:3; Isaiah 43:25; 44:22; Acts 3:19), “exhausting” (Hebrews 9:28), “taking away” [2 Samuel 12:13; 1 Chronicles 21:8; Mich., vii, 18; Ps 10:15 and 102:12], cannot be reconciled with the idea of a mere covering up of sin which is supposed to continue its existence in a covert manner. Other Biblical expressions are just as irreconcilable with this Lutheran idea, for instance, the expression of “cleansing” and “washing away” the mire of sin (Ps 1:4, 9; Isaiah 1:18; Ezekiel 36:25; 1 Cor 6:11; Revelation 1:5), that of coming “from death to life” (Col. ii., 13; 1 John 3:14); the removal from darkness to light (Eph 5:9).

In the Protestant system, however, remission of sin is no real forgiveness, no blotting out of guilt. The person to be justified seizes by means of the fiduciary faith the exterior justice of Christ, and therewith covers his sins; this exterior justice is imputed to him as if it were his own, and he stands before God as having an outward justification, but in his inner self he remains the same sinner as of old. Sin is merely cloaked and concealed by the imputed merits of Christ; God no longer imputes it, whilst in reality it continues under cover its miserable existence till the hour of death. Thus there exist in man side by side two hostile brothers as it were — the one just and the other unjust; the one a saint, the other a sinner. In a man who is at once sinful and just, half holy and half unholy, we cannot possibly recognize a masterpiece of God’s omnipotence, but only a wretched caricature, the deformity of which is exaggerated all the more by the violent introduction of the justice of Christ.

The logical consequences which follow from this system, and which have been deduced by the Reformers themselves, are indeed appalling to Catholics: it would follow that, since the justice of Christ is always and ever the same, every person justified, from the ordinary everyday person to the apostles to the Blessed Virgin, would possess precisely the same justification and would have, in degree and kind, the same holiness and justice.

The Catholic idea maintains that the formal cause of justification does not consist in an exterior imputation of the justice of Christ, but in a real, interior sanctification effected by grace, which abounds in the soul and makes it permanently holy before God.

Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis).

Only this inner, immanent sanctification of the sinner can be intended where there is mention of passing to a new life (Eph 2:5; Col 2:13; 1 John 3:14); renovation in spirit (Eph 4:23 sq.); supernatural likeness to God (Romans 8:29; 2 Cor 3:18; 2 Peter 1:4) a new creation (2 Cor 5:17; Gal 6:15); rebirth in God (John 3:5; Titus 3:5; James 1:18), etc., all of which designations not only imply a setting aside of sin, but express as well a permanent state of holiness. All of these terms express not an aid to action, but rather a form of being; and this appears also from the fact that the grace of justification is described as being “poured forth in our hearts” (Romans 5:5); as “the spirit of adoption of sons” of God (Romans 8:15); as the “spirit, born of the spirit” (John 3:6); making us “conformable to the image of the Son” (Romans 8:28); as a participation in the Divine nature (2 Peter 1:4); the abiding seed in us (1 John 3:9), and so on.

The ideas on which the Reformers built their system of justification, except perhaps fiduciary faith, were by no means original. They had been conceived long before either by heretics of the earlier centuries or by isolated Catholic theologians. It was especially the representatives of Antinomianism during the Apostolic times who welcomed the idea that faith alone suffices for justification. For this reason St. Augustine (De fide et operibus, xiv) was of the opinion that the Apostles James, Peter, John, and Jude had directed their Epistles against the Antinomians of that time, who claimed to have taken their doctrines — so dangerous to morality — from the writings of St. Paul.

It cannot be denied that in the Middle Ages there were a few Catholic theologians among the Nominalists (Occam, Durandus, Gabriel Biel), who went so far in exaggerating the value of good works in the matter of justification that the efficiency and dignity of Divine grace was unduly relegated to the background. Denifle and Weiss have shown that Martin Luther was acquainted almost exclusively with the theology of these Nominalists, which he naturally and justly found repugnant, and that the “Summa” of Aquinas and the works of other great theologians were practically unknown to him.

We have an authentic explanation of the Catholic doctrine in the “Decretum de justificatione” of the Sixth Session (13 Jan., 1547) of the Council of Trent, which in sixteen chapters and thirty-three canons gives in the clearest manner all necessary information about the process, causes, effects, and qualities of justification.

Sources:
Justification
Sanctifying Grace
 
It comes to us from the apostles, and thus bears their authority. How did a Jew of the second temple period know his scriptures were infallible? Did he have an infallible authority to say as much for him?

How do you know Rome is infallible? It’s simply something that is posited, not something that is known…

How many verses have been infallibly defined?

The move from sola eclessia to sola Scriptura was essential from the reformation.

Kind regards, been a while since we dialogued on here…

Lincs
Thanks, Lincs. I’ve been gone for awhile!

You’re right. That the Church is infallible is something that is posited. Or rather, it is an assumption that is inherited. To me, it makes more sense to start with Church than to start with Scripture. The idea is that the Church comes from the apostles, and “hence bears their authority.”

That the Jew accepted his scriptures was because of the cultural assumptions around him. This culture regarded their scriptures as coming from prophets, who of course were infallible because they were speaking from God. (I don’t know if back then they thought in ‘infallible’ terms or not.) Their scriptures were infallible because God is infallible.

It is similar for Christians. The Church is the culture Christians find themselves in, and because the Church believes in scripture, we do so as well. The Church felt that the Christian scriptures came from the inspired, infallible apostles, or their followers, hence their writings, their scriptures, are also infallible.

Scriptures at first existed in disparate, separate scrolls. They circulated independently, and different congregations would have some scrolls. Cross referencing between scrolls was difficult because of the linear, sequential access method in the God-given format. The way the individual Christian (and Jew) knew scripture was by assembling together every week and hearing the scriptures which were read to them. Scripture was a commual, auditory experience. Everyone heard the scriptures at the same time, unlike the solitary Gideon bible method.

For ages there was no New Testament as we think of it today, all collected neatly under one cover. Such was far from the Christians’ minds back then. It was not scripture which gave identity to the Church, but Jesus. All that at first existed was the Chrtist-founded Church which had copies of Jewish scripture and copies of early Christian writings which were read to the people. For the people to have independent knowledge of scriptures was not practical because of illiteracy and the scarcity of manuscripts. It is obvious that the God-intended way was for His Church to deliver His word to the people.

So, for me, it is more logical to posit the Church first. This is because scripture arose within a context, and to take it out of that context is to distort it. The Church has interpreted few passages, and those interpretations form the parameters in which an individual who does read the bible must understand it. These parameters are reasonably wide, so there is room for individual opinion (underscore opinion).

Mack
 
Scripture disproving sola Scriptura?

It’s a hermanutical principle, which simply posits scripture is our only infallible guide, not our only guide… So, to me the reformation had a necessary aspect in ensuring the church maintained this principle, so as to avoid serious diversions from apostolic teaching.

Lincs
The disciples of the Apostles and the next several generations of Church leaders would disagree heartily with your interpretation of ‘apostolic’ Christianity. I cannot post them now as I am on a phone, but try reading Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus of Lyons. Then, tell me with a straight face that they did not teach unity, obedience to bishops, sacraments, and the Catholic Eucharist. Ignatius calls the gnostics heretics because they deny that the Eucharist is the flesh of Christ. Justin defines the Eucharist as bread that has been ‘transmuted’ into the flesh of Christ. Irenaeus writes that only one, united Church Apostolic authority is the only way to know a teaching is true, and that the gnostics were wrong for relying on Scripture to prove their doctrine apart from Tradition.

Read these ancient fathers in their entirety, and ask yourself sincerely if your Christianity is actually as historic and apostolic as you fancy.
 
Well…the question back to you…Linc…who do you consider to be your infallible guide based on your own private discernment of history?
Scripture is the only infallible authority for me. My point in this discussion is to simply show the popular appeal on here of “you need the infallible Catholic Church to tell you x/y” really falls flat, as it itself is hardly a position reached by any infallible judgment…

I’m not quite sure what you mean by “Linc…can you explain how the Bible can be infallible? Infallible, or infallibity is an action word…so how can you aply an action word on the Bible?”, for this would depend on what you mean by infallible. I hold that the living and active word of God is the only infallible guide of the faithful, namely it can not err, and as it comes from God on high, its authority is only truly perceived if one perceives it if it were being heard spoken by him, to paraphrase a Calvin quote there.

Lincs
 
The disciples of the Apostles and the next several generations of Church leaders would disagree heartily with your interpretation of ‘apostolic’ Christianity. I cannot post them now as I am on a phone, but try reading Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus of Lyons. Then, tell me with a straight face that they did not teach unity, obedience to bishops, sacraments, and the Catholic Eucharist. Ignatius calls the gnostics heretics because they deny that the Eucharist is the flesh of Christ. Justin defines the Eucharist as bread that has been ‘transmuted’ into the flesh of Christ. Irenaeus writes that only one, united Church Apostolic authority is the only way to know a teaching is true, and that the gnostics were wrong for relying on Scripture to prove their doctrine apart from Tradition.

Read these ancient fathers in their entirety, and ask yourself sincerely if your Christianity is actually as historic and apostolic as you fancy.
I’m quite comfortable with the fathers, and with their explicit variations on the topic of the supper. See the article by noted church historian, Philip Schaff that I linked to earlier… Some held a view closer, but not identical with the current view of Rome, some closer to, but not identical, with the classical reformed view. Trying to pin the fathers together as one universally agreeing lump simply won’t do.
“It is unhistorical to carry any of the later theories back into this age; although it has been done frequently in the apologetic and polemic discussion of this subject.” - m.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/history/2_ch05.htm. Schaff notes the multiple views of the fathers here, with excellent references to their works to examine for oneself.

I have no issue with sacraments. Or unity. Or the episcopal model. But regarding the latter I think the most accurate biblical model is that of a plurality of elders leading a community (1 Tim 5:17), (Titus 1:5), (James 5:14). I certainly don’t adhere or agree with Romes division of some as priests and others as not. The whole church are priests, who offer spiritual sacrifices to God. (Rom 12:1), (1 Pet 2:5).

Lincs
 
Yes. It was essential the church recognised scripture as its sole infallible authority. The written form of the authoritative apostolic teaching.

Lincs
Ok…so how exactly did you–or even Martin Luther–arrive at this conclusion? Who told you–and/or Martin Luther, if you prefer–that scripture was the sole infallable authority? Or even that it was infallable?

Was ML a prophet?

Did he claim any kind of revelation?

Do you, on his behalf?
 
Ok…so how exactly did you–or even Martin Luther–arrive at this conclusion? Who told you–and/or Martin Luther, if you prefer–that scripture was the sole infallable authority? Or even that it was infallable?

Was ML a prophet?

Did he claim any kind of revelation?

Do you, on his behalf?
Is it wrong to ascribe to the living words of God an authority greater than mans?

As for Luther, I am not a Lutheran. I believe luther got much right, other things I do not agree with him on. But a mighty servant of God he was.

Lincs
 
Scripture is the only infallible authority for me. My point in this discussion is to simply show the popular appeal on here of “you need the infallible Catholic Church to tell you x/y” really falls flat, as it itself is hardly a position reached by any infallible judgment…

I’m not quite sure what you mean by “Linc…can you explain how the Bible can be infallible? Infallible, or infallibity is an action word…so how can you aply an action word on the Bible?”, for this would depend on what you mean by infallible. I*** hold that the living and active word of God is the only infallible guide of the faithful, namely it can not err***, and as it comes from God on high, its authority is only truly perceived if one perceives it if it were being heard spoken by him, to paraphrase a Calvin quote there.

Lincs
Seems there’s a whole lot of conflicting perception of this ‘infallible’ guide.
 
Is it wrong to ascribe to the living words of God an authority greater than mans?

As for Luther, I am not a Lutheran. I believe luther got much right, other things I do not agree with him on. But a mighty servant of God he was.

Lincs
Isn’t that what YOU’RE doing–ascribing greater authority to man’s word, than to God’s Word–when you ascribe Martin Luther’s doctrine of Sola Scriptura, greater authority than that of the Church that Yeshua himself actually founded?
 
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