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E.E.N.S
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Are you joking?
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
http://skins.hotbar.com/skins/mailskins/em/110104/110104_emM12.gifNow ain’t that the truth!!
Now, if I was to make a derogatory statement about the Packers, noticing that Catholic4aReasn is a Packers fan, and I’m a BEARS fan from Chicago, that might be another story!!
Mike
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Catholic4aReasn
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E.E.N.S.:
There ARE people who believe that no one is going to hell, but mhansen has in his profile that he’s Catholic. The idea that no one is going to hell is contrary to Catholic teaching, isn’t it?
In Christ,
Nancy
Good question!
There ARE people who believe that no one is going to hell, but mhansen has in his profile that he’s Catholic. The idea that no one is going to hell is contrary to Catholic teaching, isn’t it?
In Christ,
Nancy
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Contarini
Guest
My understanding is that it’s contrary to Catholic teaching to say confidently that no one will go to hell, but not to hope that hell will be empty. There are several eminent Catholic theologians, such as Hans Urs von Balthasar and more recently Richard Neuhaus, who hold this “hopeful universalism.” It has as yet not been condemned–indeed, there was a quote from JPII that seemed to give it some support, although the quote may have been badly translated.
I would say that if someone will be in hell, it’s as likely to be someone who believes in OSAS as anyone else. Those who have received much light but have spurned it are particularly guilty. Sins of presumption are the worst kind. And OSAS is perfectly designed to tempt people to commit sins of presumption.
Edwin
I would say that if someone will be in hell, it’s as likely to be someone who believes in OSAS as anyone else. Those who have received much light but have spurned it are particularly guilty. Sins of presumption are the worst kind. And OSAS is perfectly designed to tempt people to commit sins of presumption.
Edwin
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CJE
Guest
Yes. Just as there will be Catholics, Hindus, Muslims, aetheists, and Protestants in Hell. I pray that no one will be there…but we already know that there will be. I just want to live my life as well as I possibly can given the grace God imbues upon me so that I am not one of them.
God Bless.
God Bless.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
Since I don’t believe in the doctrine, I answered yes. But I can’t say that a person will go to hell *because * they believe their salvation is eternally secure. Only God knows the answer to why a soul ends up in hell.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Catholic4areason,
I see the Pharisees as the original “born again” OSASers. Jesus clearly points out that the Pharisees are going to hell. So sure, there will be OSASers in hell.
The Pharisees manipulated scriptures and the teachings of John the Baptist to verbally forced their way into the kingdom of God. Jesus verbally throws the Pharisees out of the kingdom of God. After Jesus kicks the Pharisees out of God’s eternal kingdom, they immediately search for a way to kill him.
NAB JOH 5:39
**“Search the Scriptures in which you think you have eternal life–**they also testify on my behalf. Yet you are unwilling to come to me to possess that life. It is not that I accept human praise-- it is simply that I know you, and you do not have the love of God in your hearts.”
NAB ACT 23:8
(The Sadducees, of course, maintain that there is no resurrection and that there are neither angles nor spirits, while the Pharisees believe in all these things.)
NAB MAT 22 The Wedding Banquet
Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son…
**…**But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence. Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ Many are invited, but few are chosen." Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech.
NAB REV 19:6
Therefore, I say to you,** the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.** ( The one who falls on this stone will be dashed to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.)" When the chief priests and** the Pharisees heard his parables, they knew that he was speaking about them. And although they were attempting to arrest him,**
In Christ’s parable on the self righteous, it is as if the Pharisees are thanking Jesus for their lack of sin and self righteousness. ‘Eucharisteo’ certainly must have come from John the Baptist’s ‘good news’. The Pharisees manipulated from John’s words their righteousness over others as a gift from God.
NAB LUK 18:9 The Pharisee and the tax collector.
He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. "Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I eucharisteo that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."
I see the Pharisees as the original “born again” OSASers. Jesus clearly points out that the Pharisees are going to hell. So sure, there will be OSASers in hell.
The Pharisees manipulated scriptures and the teachings of John the Baptist to verbally forced their way into the kingdom of God. Jesus verbally throws the Pharisees out of the kingdom of God. After Jesus kicks the Pharisees out of God’s eternal kingdom, they immediately search for a way to kill him.
NAB JOH 5:39
**“Search the Scriptures in which you think you have eternal life–**they also testify on my behalf. Yet you are unwilling to come to me to possess that life. It is not that I accept human praise-- it is simply that I know you, and you do not have the love of God in your hearts.”
NAB ACT 23:8
(The Sadducees, of course, maintain that there is no resurrection and that there are neither angles nor spirits, while the Pharisees believe in all these things.)
NAB MAT 22 The Wedding Banquet
Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son…
**…**But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence. Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ Many are invited, but few are chosen." Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech.
NAB REV 19:6
For the wedding day of the Lamb has come, his bride has made herself ready. She was allowed to wear a bright, clean linen garment." (The linen represents the righteous deeds of the holy ones.)
**NAB MAT 21:43 **Therefore, I say to you,** the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.** ( The one who falls on this stone will be dashed to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.)" When the chief priests and** the Pharisees heard his parables, they knew that he was speaking about them. And although they were attempting to arrest him,**
In Christ’s parable on the self righteous, it is as if the Pharisees are thanking Jesus for their lack of sin and self righteousness. ‘Eucharisteo’ certainly must have come from John the Baptist’s ‘good news’. The Pharisees manipulated from John’s words their righteousness over others as a gift from God.
NAB LUK 18:9 The Pharisee and the tax collector.
He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. "Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I eucharisteo that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."
Eucharisteo; with the dative it always stands where there is implied a kindness done, a favor, a charis, a grace for an undeserved gift received where it appears as thanks for any good experience.
Charis; from chairio, to rejoice, or chara, joy, favor, acceptance, a kindness granted or desired, a benefit, thanks, gratitude, grace. A favor done without expectation of return; absolute freeness of loving kindness of God to men finding its only motive in the bounty and freeheartedness of the Giver; unearned an unmerited favor.
Lexicon to the Old and New Testaments, by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D AMG publishers.
Charis; from chairio, to rejoice, or chara, joy, favor, acceptance, a kindness granted or desired, a benefit, thanks, gratitude, grace. A favor done without expectation of return; absolute freeness of loving kindness of God to men finding its only motive in the bounty and freeheartedness of the Giver; unearned an unmerited favor.
Lexicon to the Old and New Testaments, by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D AMG publishers.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
The Jewish term “Pharisee” means “the separated”. The Pharisees used circumcision, the law of Abraham (ACT 15:1), eucharisteo and baptism to verbally force their way into the kingdom that John the Baptist spoke of. The Pharisees ruthlessly exalted and separated themselves from other men as God’s chosen sons in possession of eternal life. It is this lust for worldly exaltation as God’s sons in possesion of God’s kingdom that the Pharisees violently crucified the Son of Man to protect.
**NAB MAT 3:8 **
They were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. When he saw that many of the Pharisees and Sadducees were stepping forward for this bath, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who told you to flee from the wrath to come? Give some evidence that you mean to reform. Do not pride yourselves on the claim, ‘Abraham is our father.’ I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these very stones.”**NAB LUK 16:16 The Law. **
"The law and the prophets were in force** until John. From his time on, the good news of God’s kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in.** It is easier for the heavens and the earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a letter of the law to pass. NAB MAT 11:11
"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least born into the Kingdom of God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer’s time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force." NAB MAT 21:37
"Finally he sent his son to them, thinking, “They will respect my son.’ When they saw the son, the tenants said to one another, 'Here is the one who will inherit everything. Let us kill him and then we shall have his inheritance!” With that they seized him, dragged him outside the vineyard, and killed him."
NAB MAT 12:14
**When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.**NAB MAT 5:20
**I tell you, unless your holiness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees you shall not enter the kingdom of God." **
**NAB MAT 3:8 **
They were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. When he saw that many of the Pharisees and Sadducees were stepping forward for this bath, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who told you to flee from the wrath to come? Give some evidence that you mean to reform. Do not pride yourselves on the claim, ‘Abraham is our father.’ I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these very stones.”**NAB LUK 16:16 The Law. **
"The law and the prophets were in force** until John. From his time on, the good news of God’s kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in.** It is easier for the heavens and the earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a letter of the law to pass. NAB MAT 11:11
"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least born into the Kingdom of God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer’s time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force." NAB MAT 21:37
"Finally he sent his son to them, thinking, “They will respect my son.’ When they saw the son, the tenants said to one another, 'Here is the one who will inherit everything. Let us kill him and then we shall have his inheritance!” With that they seized him, dragged him outside the vineyard, and killed him."
NAB MAT 12:14
**When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.**NAB MAT 5:20
**I tell you, unless your holiness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees you shall not enter the kingdom of God." **
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carol_marie
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If Satan is able to convince people that there is no hell… I think that will be his greatest accomplishment yet. 
J
JimG
Guest
carol marie:
Or perhaps convincing them that there is indeed a hell, but there is certainly no way that I could possibly go there!If Satan is able to convince people that there is no hell… I think that will be his greatest accomplishment yet.
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Contarini
Guest
I agree, Jim; I think that’s really Satan’s goal.
Some of the Desert Fathers, I believe, used to repeat to themselves, “All will be saved, and I alone will be damned.” perhaps that’s going a bit far, but I think it’s basically on the right track.
The main reason I am not a universalist (other than simple adherence to Sacred Tradition) is that I know too well that I am capable of choosing damnation. The Methodist theologian Jerry Walls wrote an excellent book on hell (Hell: The Logic of Damnation–he has a very good book on heaven as well, and I hear that he’s writing one on purgatory now). When I finished reading his account of how one could choose damnation, I found myself shaking with fear, because I could see just what kind of choices I made frequently that, if persisted in, could lead me down that dark path.
In Christ,
Edwin
Some of the Desert Fathers, I believe, used to repeat to themselves, “All will be saved, and I alone will be damned.” perhaps that’s going a bit far, but I think it’s basically on the right track.
The main reason I am not a universalist (other than simple adherence to Sacred Tradition) is that I know too well that I am capable of choosing damnation. The Methodist theologian Jerry Walls wrote an excellent book on hell (Hell: The Logic of Damnation–he has a very good book on heaven as well, and I hear that he’s writing one on purgatory now). When I finished reading his account of how one could choose damnation, I found myself shaking with fear, because I could see just what kind of choices I made frequently that, if persisted in, could lead me down that dark path.
In Christ,
Edwin
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BlestOne
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carol marie:
I am sorry to say that I think there are many that Satan has already convinced there is no hell. On the other hand, it is equally sad to see so many people that don’t believe in a power greater than themselves either.
BlestOne
Carol Marie,If Satan is able to convince people that there is no hell… I think that will be his greatest accomplishment yet.
I am sorry to say that I think there are many that Satan has already convinced there is no hell. On the other hand, it is equally sad to see so many people that don’t believe in a power greater than themselves either.
BlestOne
J
JimG
Guest
Wow, maybe that’s a book that needs to be in the hands of many homilists. Not that everybody should be continually frightened of damnation, but I think it is easy to just get too complacent.
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