Do you think this is appropriate behaviour?

[hawkeye]

Today my grandson Matthew James got Baptized, I went into the Church to light a candle, and there was only me and two other people, they were up at the Altar.

There was the Church caretaker and a woman who was assisting at the Baptisms with the names etc;

The caretaker was leaning over the Altar like a bar, and the lady was writing down something on a piece of paper, on the Altar.

I just want to know if anyone thinks this is inappropriate behaviour at the Altar ?

 

[YADA]

While this may not be the optimum and I am very familiar with planning liturgies and always attept to act apppropriately within the church … I will only say that I have done this and I have seen my parish priest and others do the same … use the altar to write notes on the luturgy scripts…

We meet for major liturgies [like the Easter Vigil] the liturgy team and Father, Sacristan, the heads of various ministries [RCIA, Ushers, Altar Servers, EMHC, Lectors team, Music] for a walk through [this is after meetings for planning, a *talk through … to make sure that everyone knows what is taking place and all of the liturgucal functions happen as they should and in the proer manner …

The walk through is in the church … people walk and go through the logistics discussing various actions …

We are respectful … but one has to recognize that God knows we are people who love the Liturgy and want it to go well …

Now if they were writing Graffitti on the Altar, laughing loudly at lurid jokes and behaving immodestly …

but if they were just planning it was probably not disrespectful … perhaps they should have done it earlier … before the arrival the pre-mass goers…

We for example never schedule walk throughs on Good Friday, ever … we always make them earlier in the week …

CONGRATULATIONS ON TH E BAPTISM I am eagerly awaiting the baptism of my newest grandson … I hope they schedule it soon

 

[bobzills]

Today my grandson Matthew James got Baptized, I went into the Church to light a candle, and there was only me and two other people, they were up at the Altar.

There was the Church caretaker and a woman who was assisting at the Baptisms with the names etc;

The caretaker was leaning over the Altar like a bar, and the lady was writing down something on a piece of paper, on the Altar.

I just want to know if anyone thinks this is inappropriate behaviour at the Altar ?

Before Vatican II, it would not have been appropriate behaviour. However, the teachings have changed since Vatican II, and many Catholics seem to be OK today with talking and sometimes even joking around in Church. For example, they even have clowns at some Catholic Masses these days.

 

[StCsDavid]

Before Vatican II, it would not have been appropriate behaviour. However, the teachings have changed since Vatican II, and many Catholics seem to be OK today with talking and sometimes even joking around in Church. For example, they even have clowns at some Catholic Masses these days.

I would say this is an American phenomena. As we only make up about 10% of the Catholics world wide, IMHO, we have much to learn regarding reverence in Church from our brothers and sisters in other countries and even other faiths.

 

[hawkeye]

Well thanks to those few that have replied, yes I have seen those clown Masses on this forum, but thankfully not in Ireland, God preserve us from them.

Anyway the second part, I did light a candle, and then I asked them if they thought it was appropriate behaviour to be discussing business and writing on the Altar ?

They replied, "we aren’t discussing business " whatever that meant, but then they went to the side-room that was built for this purpose and finished off what they were doing.

But I do not think the Altar should be used as an office desk, IMO.

Vatican II, Pope Paul VI " the smoke of satan has entered the Church "… I think so.

 

[bobzills]

Well thanks to those few that have replied, yes I have seen those clown Masses on this forum, but thankfully not in Ireland, God preserve us from them.

Anyway the second part, I did light a candle, and then I asked them if they thought it was appropriate behaviour to be discussing business and writing on the Altar ?

They replied, "we aren’t discussing business " whatever that meant, but then they went to the side-room that was built for this purpose and finished off what they were doing.

But I do not think the Altar should be used as an office desk, IMO.

Vatican II, Pope Paul VI " the smoke of satan has entered the Church "… I think so.

At our Church, after the Mass, the priest asked everyone to stay and he pulled up a chair in front of the altar and began to discuss the sad state of the Church’s finances, and asked for suggestions on how to bring in more money to the Church. Everyone was giving suggestions, when one parishoner stood up and said: Father, shouldn’t things like this be discussed in the parish hall and not in the Church itself. The priest said, No, he would rather discuss it in Church right after Mass, because that way he would be assured that everyone would be there. So the discussion in the Church continued.

 

[Christy_Beth]

That doesn’t sound right. Talking about church finances in the church? If he brought up a church ministry during his homily, and the finances needed for it, that might be a bit more appropriate. But even then I’d be cautious.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I don’t like the church being used as anything other than for the celebration of the mass or benedictions or sacraments and devotionals (adoration).

However, there has been an ever increasing escalation of encroachments on the sanctity and holiness of the church for things related to “reasonable” elleastical preparation. For example we often have the choirs and musicians come into the church in the evenings to practise. We have wedding rehearsals with people who are not even Catholic (and lots of photographers are very rude) walking about like they own the place talking at the top of their voice while people are praying or trying to go to confession. It’s even worse after a wedding and I have seen photographers lay their gear on the altar and start directing people while everyone is clowning around and laughing.

But here is one altar function that I think is valid. At funerals the priest will have a family member walk up to the altar and enter the deceased person’s name into the official roster of the deceased for prayer purposes. I do not think this is inappropriate but it could be done at the podium or a special dedicated side table as well.

Just some thoughts,
James

 

[ricko]

No, that was not appropriate behaviour. When I was growing up in the fifties, respect and reverence was the norm in church. Silence was observed and if people wanted to meet and talk it was done after Mass outside of the church. Now they applaud and carry on meetings in the church. It sounds like Grand Central Station inside the church. If you see behaviour like this, let your voice be heard.

 

[grandfather]

Today my grandson Matthew James got Baptized, I went into the Church to light a candle, and there was only me and two other people, they were up at the Altar.

There was the Church caretaker and a woman who was assisting at the Baptisms with the names etc;

The caretaker was leaning over the Altar like a bar, and the lady was writing down something on a piece of paper, on the Altar.

I just want to know if anyone thinks this is inappropriate behaviour at the Altar ?

The inside of a Church and the sanctuary are supposed to be sacred space, reserved for sacred activity. Somehow I suspect that everyone instinctively knows what sacred activity is and is not. There are many in the time we live in who feel a need to mix the sacred and the profane.

 

[bobzills]

When I was growing up in the fifties, respect and reverence was the norm in church. Silence was observed and if people wanted to meet and talk it was done after Mass outside of the church. Now they applaud and carry on meetings in the church.

It looks to me like the discipline has changed since Vatican II. Before Vatican II, clowns were not allowed at the altar, whereas after Vatican II, clowns are allowed at the altar and in the pews.

 

[Christy_Beth]

There were many liberties taken after Vatican II. From what I’ve been seeing and hearing, some of that is being reined in.

 

[Neal]

no its not appropriate and when I’m ordained I will not tolerate it. As for clowns in the mass, this is not a Vatican II thing per se, its a perversion of vatican II to be certain, but if you read what vatican II actually said it had nothing to do with this kind of nonsense, it had everything to do with the new evangelization and an increased role of the laity, universal call to holiness and the like. Now Vatican II did relax some of the restrictions for outside masses and that sort of thing, and the mass of Paul VI allowed for the vernacular (allowed for, not prescribed) and allowed for different postures (again, allowed, not prescribed) and different, trimmed down prayers, but it did NOT NOR WILL IT EVER allow “clown masses” or any other such silliness. People who have done such have violated cannon law.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

I’m sure if it was a mortal sin unless confessed it will be addressed on the particular judgement. At least they moved on after you said something. And I was not alive for pre-V2, but I can tell you we have no clown masses, clapping only after mass once or twice a year encouraged by the pastor (not that I like it), no dancing , no self intinction etc. But in general I would agree that the general sacredness of the church is slipping by the young and OLD alike. Especially if you are losing your hearing do NOT ever talk in church, your whisper can be an 80 decible rant.

 

[bobzills]

no its not appropriate and when I’m ordained I will not tolerate it. As for clowns in the mass, this is not a Vatican II thing per se, its a perversion of vatican II to be certain, but if you read what vatican II actually said it had nothing to do with this kind of nonsense, it had everything to do with the new evangelization and an increased role of the laity, universal call to holiness and the like. Now Vatican II did relax some of the restrictions for outside masses and that sort of thing, and the mass of Paul VI allowed for the vernacular (allowed for, not prescribed) and allowed for different postures (again, allowed, not prescribed) and different, trimmed down prayers, but it did NOT NOR WILL IT EVER allow “clown masses” or any other such silliness. People who have done such have violated cannon law.

Has anyone ever been subject to even the slightest bit of ecclesiastical censure for the clown Masses, the Halloween Masses, the mariachi band Masses, the charismatic roll on the floor and scream Masses, the slide show Masses, the Peter, Paul and Mary folk music Masses, swaying to and fro and waving the hands in the air type Masses, Puppet Masses, etc.?

 

[Neal]

Has anyone ever been subject to even the slightest bit of ecclesiastical censure for the clown Masses, the Halloween Masses, the mariachi band Masses, the charismatic roll on the floor and scream Masses, the slide show Masses, the Peter, Paul and Mary folk music Masses, swaying to and fro and waving the hands in the air type Masses, Puppet Masses, etc.?

Unfortunately no, but I’m saying that its not prescribed by Vatican II or the Mass of Paul VI; people have changed the meaning, I for one hope to take it back. It will be six years before I have the chance though. Also, this behavior is less severe in some diocese. Here in St. Louis, we have some guitar music in some parishes, no puppets or slide shows or screaming though. I think in time sanity will come back to these parishes as the spirit of the 60s and 70s leaves the church. What I was trying to say is that this was the actions of liberals in the Church taking advantage of the changes in Vatican II and the mass of Pope Paul VI and enforcing their own agenda.

I mean, if you look at the stats on the acceptance of Church teaching on birth control, the clergy that is really old accept it, clergy that was ordained 30 years ago have a high degree of disagreement with it, but clergy ordained since the mid nineties are much more orthodox.

 

[bobzills]

Unfortunately no, …

If no one has ever been subject to the slightest bit of ecclesiastical censure for the type of Masses mentioned, what reasonalbe conclusion can be drawn from this, except that there really is no serious objection as far as the Catholic hierarchy is concerned.

 

[The_Otaku]

No, I do not think it is appropriate behavior. People should have a greater awareness for where in the church they are. You wouldn’t talk out loud in a Perpetual Adoration chapel or when the Host is exposed, so why do it on the very alter that the sacrifice is acknowledged?

I may commit bad sins sometimes, but I know well enough not to carry on and so forth on the altar!

 

[bobzills]

No, I do not think it is appropriate behavior. People should have a greater awareness for where in the church they are. You wouldn’t talk out loud in a Perpetual Adoration chapel or when the Host is exposed, so why do it on the very alter that the sacrifice is acknowledged?

I may commit bad sins sometimes, but I know well enough not to carry on and so forth on the altar!

I was in the Cathedral of Los Angeles recently. There were several ushers or official watchmen in uniforms. As I walked through the Cathedral, I saw people taking pictures, chewing gum, talking, laughing, splashing holy water. And no one was objecting. So, what can be reasonably concluded except that this behavior is tolerated.

 

[The_Otaku]

I was in the Cathedral of Los Angeles recently. There were several ushers or official watchmen in uniforms. As I walked through the Cathedral, I saw people taking pictures, chewing gum, talking, laughing, splashing holy water. And no one was objecting. So, what can be reasonably concluded except that this behavior is tolerated.

What can be concluded is that Satan’s infiltration into the inner sanctum of the Vatican is stronger than it ever was. Now, I may be flamed for saying something radical like that, but I truely believe alot of the ills the catholic church of today is facing is due to Satan’s influence on the weak in our flock, and those particularly in power.

I look into alot of controversial things that alot of people would feel uncomfortable looking into, or would feel like a traitor for even reading. Like how new age mysticism is being subtly introduced into the church by the masons and satanists and false priests and bishops planted within the church. This corruption filters down and you get churches like the one you’re talking about. I live in California, by the way, but I’ve had no desire to go to that church.

It’s all about the intentional dumbing down of our catholic roots so they can be replaced with new age garbage. The goal of the enemy is to destroy the church and you do that by changing what it believes and accepts. Once you’ve got people loose enough and believing it’s ok, you can get them to do and believe anything and they won’t object, because it’s what they’ve been conditioned to accept as a norm.