Pretty assumptive of you to think all snobs (your term, not mine) are rich. Perhaps they are not snobs at all but people who have been brought up differently than you. Your Sunday best does not have to be designer clothes.
I have been with this thread from day 1. I have never considered this about wearing your sunday best or sunday worse. It started with just jeans and has warped into something else.
I always get a chuckle out of the nice person who will mistakenly proclaim, “A reading from the letter of Paul to the Fillipinos!”Way to assume. I go to a FILIPINO parish - but thanks for the spelling lesson.
So, I used to make a big deal out of “dressing up” for Sunday Mass. Now, given, for me that means “business casual”, at best, as that is about as dressy as I respectably get (everything more that that is mere costume fashion, as far as I’m concerned). Then I realized a few things.
It is the essence of the discussion. Clearly the latter part of this post seems to be the reality for this discussion.
i completely disagree with you. not only is that not the essence of the discussion. it’s a mere sidenote to the larger problem this thread is addressing.
It is interesting that your reasons for dressing casually involve how much they are an inconvienience to your time and comfort. I think a large part of dressing up on sundays, is the result of an awareness that sunday is a very different day than the rest of the week. (You should hear Scott Hahn speak on this, it is brilliant). No one is asking people in here to be vain in their appearnce or disposition. I think those who are advocating for more formal dress at church, do so based on the principal, of sacrifice, and example setting. This is also based on the premise of, keep holy the sabbath, or hallow it.
Why not offer that discomfort up for God?
The crux of the matter to me is what will enable me to reasonably pray well. If I’m sticking to the pew, I’m worried more about my wet back than offering myself to God. If it’s a matter of missing my bus and getting to Mass late or wearing the shoes I have on, I may wear whatever I’m wearing. If I have to walk a couple of miles between getting to/from Church and any other errands I have to run, I’ll change into good walking shoes. If it’s cold out and there’s a foot and a half of snow on the ground that I may have to climb through, I’ll be warmer wearing sweat pants and drier wearing an old pair of gym shoes that I don’t have to worry about ruining. And I’ll pray better because of it. I think the Lord is fine with all of this, even if you aren’t. In fact, if it scandalizes you, GOOD! Maybe it will get you to think a little outside the box and recognize other realities. Afterall, appearances alone can be deceiving.
I will agree that in our present culture, “Sunday” has taken on a much different perspective than it once had. I’ll further agree that this isn’t a good thing. Nonetheless, we have to live in the times that we do, not just the times we’d like to live in. If that means that people are approaching with alternative legitimate perspectives, then you take them where they are and uplift that which is good in what they have come to the altar of the Lord with.
This is based upon your perspective of what more formal dress means. Not everyone views it the same way. For instance, some people find a three piece suit to be essential presentation as business wear. To me, it’s just stuffy and unnecessary, sometimes a sign of puffery, even. But, hey, if you like it and it looks sharp then go for it! There is a certain subjectiveness at play, though, in how everyone views clothing. For some people, it is more critical than it is to others.
While offering up discomfort is a good thing, I think it is petulant to suggest that God is calling us to be penitential in this way if distraction in prayer can be easily resolved by reasonable means. What does he want more, your undivided heart or nice clothes? Think about it!
I thought we were talking about Sunday Mass, not Friday Pennance!
If it helps, fine. But it isn’t required, either. Of course, I can often find Christ in the dirty begger better than the well groomed professional all too often. So it goes both ways.
You said it! Why worry about how others dress, then?
True enough. But I don’t think anyone is necessarily accusing people who “dress up” of anything wrong (let alone saying that they shouldn’t get gussied), but rather suggesting that those who worry and complain about such things to no end are often not the same “poor and underpriveleged” but possibly those to whom “nice clothes” mean something signifigant due to their social status and ability to dress a certain way. It really is a form of snobbery to suggest that you “must” do as I desire and conform to be “like me”.
Again, you’re making a judgement here about people’s attitudes which may not be accurate. It’s only “laziness and lax” because of your preferred perspective which says it must be. Try seeing some value in other perspectives, also.
Alright, I’m going to attempt an argument here that you won’t like, but which plays right at your own concerns about Sunday being unique. Maybe these people are so pent up from the “need” to conform, perform, and “dress everything up” during the rest of the week that on Sunday they just want to comfortably “rest in the Lord” and be real. If their jeans and whatever else allow them to do this, what’s the problem?
olamshrine.com/olam/shrine_info.htm
In humility you should not over generalize this topic. What are we seeing with Mother Angelica and th Vatican is that there IS indeed a standard, you are free to disagree, however you may not be let into St Peters or The Shrine down in Alabama.THERE ARE STANDARDS!
Standards which THEY are choosing to set (and perhaps not without good reason, particularly in the Vatican). But that doesn’t mean that these standards are set in stone as the only reasonable possibility. I mean, we’re not talking about strict moral dogma here, but decorum. And, from what I understand, those skirts that they hand out at the Vatican sometimes can be paper thin and not really worth bothering much with in the long run, anyway.
He’s talking about the state of one’s soul and an environment where the garments were provided. It’s not mere clothing that he’s speaking of, but what’s on the inside. Be careful not to get Pharasitical about such exterior practices, then. Actually, if you really wanted to go this route, you would suggest that we should all be wearing albs at Mass, provided by the parish.
Mine is A. One of the reason is because it’s a normal dresscode here. However, as much as I can, I try to wear something decent, clean and also simple. I want people to be comfortable to approach me or when I approach them (I’m in the youth ministry and also Legion of Mary). I do wear slippers recently, simply because the condition of my slippers is better than my shoes. I admit, I’m kinda guilty for not getting a new pair of shoes yet. It is something that’s normal in my church. I think it really depends on the parishioners and how they dress.
In humility, you again radically misreperesent my postion. You have taken the rare and unique cases, and made them the norm and the rule of thumb for this topic, you continually draw false dichotomies. Aside from the ad hominum remarks, I do indeed think and conider “outside the box” the reality is, not every one HAS to trudge through “a foot and a half of snow” not everyone shares your unique circumstances. I am aware of other peoples mitigating circumstances. I am not asking a poor beggar to come to church dressed up the best, because in reality he cannot, and the fact he makes it to church is a blessing…inevitably the refute for this statement will be “a’ha you see the fact that he comes to church is the real blessing, therefore you are out of line to ask others dress properly” to this i say yes it I agree it is a blessing…but are all people not able to afford dress clothes?..No not everyone shares this man’s circumstance.
No… it is based on the principal that, Sunday is a day set aside and is to be hallowed, (before you misrepresent my statement read further) it is a day set aside and is asking us for that awareness, if you tell yourself it is not necessary that you dress out of the ordinary like you would dress ordinarily through out the week. Then that is a failing in one respect to treating the day differently. That is to say you are not willing to treat sunday differently in respects to you exterior disposition. You justify it by drawing this flase dichotomy like so man often do in regards to interior and exterior dispostions. They are complimentary.
And yet you are not willing to say that it is good and just to hallow the day throguh our appearance. Yet you refute this statement through the implication that somehow I have made it an end unto itself. Your all for example setting until it comes to setting an example through your attire, writing it of as a relative issue, as superficial. If I have drawn the wrong conlcusion form this statement, please correct me.
Why should I think about it? I agree wholeheartedly with this point, I do not disagree that God wants our “undivided” heart. Thats not what is being called into question. You have also implied that those who are dressed nicely are not concerned with giving their undivided heart.
You continually use the “dirty beggar” as an escape goat for the fully capable individual who *CAN *dress nicely, but decides that it is too “out of the way” I agree as well that you can find a dirty beggar with more faith than one who is dressed nicely. It can also be argued that a man who is dressed nicely has more faith and more conviction than that of a dirty beggar. Is this to say then that all poor beggars have more faith than a nicely dressed individuals? Or shall we say all nicely dressed individuals are “rich snobs” stuffy and cold? Should I assert that all nicely dressed individuals are completely and properly disposed interiorly? Certainly not!! to say that these circmustances are the norm and are true realities, is to commit the fallacy of hasty generalization.
(Pardon me if I find this somewhat, problematic, rigid and thoughtless. Before you accuse me of being ignorant, and wish to scandalize people, understand their postion. Don’t result to personal strikes.) I am sure people on this thread want avoid such actions so as to be able to continue this discussion.
Agreed
