Docile Catholics, Militant Protestants

[Friend_Of_Rome]

Why is it that there are so manyt more evangelizing Protestants than Catholics? Why is it that they seem to have more fire? Also, why is it that certain Protestant sects believe that all Catholics are going to hell, even people like Mother Teresa and John Paul II? How can we, as Catholics be filled with the same fire and conviction as our Protestant brothers and sisters?

I’ve been trying to answer these questions for a very long time, and I thought that my forum companions would have the answers.

 

[Wisdom]

Why is it that there are so manyt more evangelizing Protestants than Catholics? Why is it that they seem to have more fire? Also, why is it that certain Protestant sects believe that all Catholics are going to hell, even people like Mother Teresa and John Paul II? How can we, as Catholics be filled with the same fire and conviction as our Protestant brothers and sisters?

I’ve been trying to answer these questions for a very long time, and I thought that my forum companions would have the answers.

Well you have to understand a lot of these non-denom evangelical churchs are less than 40 years old and some of the other traditions such as pentacostalicism a tradition of only 100 years calls for an exagerration of emotion that is the basis of thier faith whereas the basis of the catholic faith is not merely emotion but faith and reason. Lets see how on fire these churchs are 2000 years from now. Protestanism had to keep on reinventing itself to keep itself alive for instance many of the Reformed era churchs like Lutheran, Anglican and Presbyterian are in far worse shape and probably a lot more dead in the water than the catholic faith is and are in a great decline. WHereas the newest branches of protestantism like Pentacostlicism and the non-denom evangelicals are really the only growing segments of protestantism. You have to keep into account that these churchs also have a high rate of turnover and just ask the members how long they have been attending the church most people are brand new christians in 10 years the turnover of these churchs are rather incredible. Whereas there are lot of craddle catholics who get burried in the church a lot these persons in evangelicalsim are church shopping every few years once their on fire church starts dying down emotionally for them. They belive Catholcism is an apostate church and part of their evangelist spirit is from an honest desrie of not seeing non-born again christians per their definition not go to hell as they beleive such persons have no chance of salvation and are doomed to hell whereas the catholic church has a bit more wiggle room though church memebership is still highly relevant for your chances of entering heaven.
Their critieria for being born again is not like baptism like Catholics bur a conversion experience accompanied most of the time by a public altar call and a sinners prayer and a true Christian per their understanding is in the bible alone and faith alone. Catholcsim to their understanding adds extra biblical man made traditions and has Catholics beleiving in a works based religion regarding justification of course this is highly misrepresented but its their beleif.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Is it a seven year formation for the priesthood?
Lifelong vows of chastity, obedience, and poverty.
They are required to die before breaking that confessional silence vow thing.
They must go where they are sent, in some ages, [reformation England] many Irish priests trained in French universities to minister to English Catholics - in the full knowledge that, literally, as soon as they stepped onto the docks in the English ports they would be arrested, given a mock trial and then hanged, drawn and quartered. But they trained and went in the full knowledge of this.
Its easy for a layperson to wave a Bible in someones, (sometimes another christians), face and tell they are going to hell.

 

[Revelation13_16]

I as a Protestant, asked my Protestant friend who is finishing Seminary this question:

“The thing that I am annoyed with about Orthodoxy & Catholicism is that they don’t evangelize enough. Protestants will go everywhere and preach to homeless people, business people, and anyone else to save their souls but the Catholic & the Orthodox don’t”

My friend said to me that it wasn’t always this way with Catholicism.

He said Catholics were great evangelizers before the 1960’s when apparently the Vatican decided to stop doing it.

Is this true?

Did something happen around this time that cut the level of evangelism in Catholicism?

 

[Unitas]

I know I and many others are “on fire for the faith.” It’s not just limited to the evangelicals.

You must admit that there is a stigma about being a “Jesus freak” and perhaps Catholics don’t want to get involved in that. Too bad I guess.

To have the Truth and not want to share it is trully a waste indeed.

 

[Wisdom]

I as a Protestant, asked my Protestant friend who is finishing Seminary this question:

“The thing that I am annoyed with about Orthodoxy & Catholicism is that they don’t evangelize enough. Protestants will go everywhere and preach to homeless people, business people, and anyone else to save their souls but the Catholic & the Orthodox don’t”

My friend said to me that it wasn’t always this way with Catholicism.

He said Catholics were great evangelizers before the 1960’s when apparently the Vatican decided to stop doing it.

Is this true?

Did something happen around this time that cut the level of evangelism in Catholicism?

Uh we have Catholics that serve and evangelize the homeless by the corporal works of mercy here sure we don’t have bible tracts and say “are you saved brother” but there are other ways to evangelize than shouting are you saved and handing out tracts. Frankly we read these kids stories get to know them and the adults (who have a story they usually want to tell you before you tell them yours) better than enter such discussions. Seeking to care about a person instead of overt proslitzation before you know their name is better tact to me and was the method Mother Teressa took so it must have some validity. Opus Dei has a ministry in the United States that evangelizes business people and politicians. Frankly I think you trun more people off in a modern society by knocking on thier door 8 am in the morning asking them about their religion. Most people I meet hate the Mormons and JW’s for this tactic and prefer to have a relationship with a person before discussing religion and in modern day America I think its the best route to go. I am not old enough to know about the glory days of Catholcism.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Why is it that there are so manyt more evangelizing Protestants than Catholics? Why is it that they seem to have more fire? Also, why is it that certain Protestant sects believe that all Catholics are going to hell, even people like Mother Teresa and John Paul II? How can we, as Catholics be filled with the same fire and conviction as our Protestant brothers and sisters?

I’ve been trying to answer these questions for a very long time, and I thought that my forum companions would have the answers.

I agree with what you have said to some degree; however, I do not think it is all sunshine on the Protestant side of the street.

All these kudos notwithstanding, I do sometimes wonder if much of the energy expended by evangelicals is not done so in an attempt to prove (to themselves and to the others in their congregation) that they really are saved and persevering until the end.

Since many evangelicals believe that it is possible to fall away (meaning that they never really were saved to begin with), I think there is a certain amount of fear driving them.

Ironically, while it is claimed (erroneously) by evangelicals that Catholics seek to “earn” their way into heaven, it is the evangelicals themselves who appear to be on a treadmill of works (missions, witnessing, service to the church, etc.).

 

[Revelation13_16]

Uh we have Catholics that serve and evangelize the homeless by the corporal works of mercy here sure we don’t have bible tracts and say “are you saved brother” but there are other ways to evangelize than shouting are you saved and handing out tracts.

Look, I don’t know where you’re from, perhaps you come from an area where Protestants do shout and “cut to the chase” a little too much, but where I’m from I haven’t seen that behaviour from Protestants.

And tracts are perhaps the only non-evasive way to reach someone in a society, if you have a message and you don’t want to preach it in the open air, and you also don’t want to hound someone walking down the street like Mormons do, how on Earth are you honestly going to convey the message to passers by?

Frankly we read these kids stories get to know them and the adults (who have a story they usually want to tell you before you tell them yours) better than enter such discussions. Seeking to care about a person instead of overt proslitzation before you know their name is better tact to me and was the method Mother Teressa took so it must have some validity.

The only problem with this method is this.

That guy who you’ll share the gospel with next week when you see him might be dead by then.

Jesus didn’t go to a new town and say “Hmm, I better preach on the way back, I don’t know these people yet”.

In fact Jesus boldly preached to people who didn’t know him from Adam, read Acts and you’ll see all the Apostles did this.

It’s very hard though, it requires great faith and boldness and so the passivity of tracts is more suitable for lots of people, but good message should never be delayed.

You should read C.S Lewis’ The Screwtape Letters about this, according to Lewis, the devil delights when he can ‘rescue’ someone from nearly being saved.

Very plausable.

Opus Dei has a ministry in the United States that evangelizes business people and politicians. Frankly I think you trun more people off in a modern society by knocking on thier door 8 am in the morning asking them about their religion. Most people I meet hate the Mormons and JW’s for this tactic and prefer to have a relationship with a person before discussing religion and in modern day America I think its the best route to go.

I disagree with the JW/Mormon tactic - to me personally I think it’s highly predatory as the only people who are going to open the door are usually old people who are too polite to refuse the psychological tactics these cults indoctrinate their missionaries in.

But honestly, I’m nearly 30 and not once has a Catholic ever tried to convert me (Orthodox either), not even one tract, one small little tract.

I am not old enough to know about the glory days of Catholcism.

Me neither if my friend was right and the Church changed it’s stance on evangelism in the 1960’s, I’d like to know if this is true from a Catholic though.

Love,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Ironically, while it is claimed (erroneously) by evangelicals that Catholics seek to “earn” their way into heaven, it is the evangelicals themselves who appear to be on a treadmill of works (missions, witnessing, service to the church, etc.).

The book of James says that Faith without works is dead, works shows whether you indeed have true faith or not.

Protestants who evangelize in my experience are faithful to the last instructions that Jesus gave us before his ascension, the “great commandment”.

It’s also tied to Jesus’ second commandment “Love your neightbour as you love yourself”.

If one believes in a hell, and believes that Jesus saves, and yet doesn’t wish to relay this to their neighbours (ie- people) then where is the love?

 

[deb1]

Why is it that there are so manyt more evangelizing Protestants than Catholics? Why is it that they seem to have more fire? Also, why is it that certain Protestant sects believe that all Catholics are going to hell, even people like Mother Teresa and John Paul II? How can we, as Catholics be filled with the same fire and conviction as our Protestant brothers and sisters?

I’ve been trying to answer these questions for a very long time, and I thought that my forum companions would have the answers.

If you mean the type of fire in which you verbally beat someone over the head with your attempts to evangelize then, then No, I do not wish that type of fire. If you mean the open admittance of one’s love for God, then I understand you. I, too, wish that Catholics were less shy about expressing their faith.

Let me make this disclaimer, I know many Protestants who are good Christians and this is NOT directed at them.

I found, when I was a Protestant, that sometimes the most visibly ‘on fire’ Christian was not always the one who was the best person after services were finished. A person could express quite a bit of emotional love for God but still gossip, have affairs or be extremely judgmental etc. Yes, we are all sinners but I think that the denominations who put more emphasis on emotions as a way to know God seemed to have a problem growing spiritually beyond that emotional reaction.

Also, The denominations that believe in Once Saved, Always saved sometimes judge fellow Christian’s salvation rather harshly. If you do not publicly act in a certain manner then your fellow church members will doubt that you are actually "saved.’ This attitude puts a lot of pressure on a person to respond and act in a certain ways.

Plus, Some Protestant churches really are better at having lots of meetings and activities that help keep the members always ‘reved’ up and on fire for Christ.

The irony is that I feel as though I have experienced the most spiritual growth as a Christian when I had those moments of doubts or felt that furthest from God.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Me neither if my friend was right and the Church changed it’s stance on evangelism in the 1960’s, I’d like to know if this is true from a Catholic though.

This is just my take on the situation.

I think that after 500 years of fighting with Protestants, the Catholic Church decided to try a more ecumenical approach to reunification. Consequently, it was no longer “cool” to tell Protestants that they needed to convert.

However, 40 years downstream, we see this was largely a waste of time, nothing has been accomplished, and a generation has passed without hearing the Catholic Answer.

Consequently, a new wind is blowing in the field of Catholic Apologetics, and Protestants are coming into the Church in droves - especially fired up Evangelicals who ARE taking their new faith to the streets and the web.

Now, to be fair, there are a lot of Catholics leaving the Church, as well. Frankly, they were dead wood, anyway, and I hope you can do something with them.

But let’s consider the exchange that is taking place. We’re getting fired-up, knowledgeable folks who know their Bible and understand why Catholicism is the true faith. Many of them are former pastors who are EAGER to share the full gospel and explain WHY sola scriptura and sola fide are a crock. You’re getting bitter and angry people with huge chips on their shoulders who never really understood their Catholic faith. Ironically, many of these folks revert to the Church once they realize that evangelicalism is not all its cracked up to be.

That may be a harsh, one-sided perspective, but that’s my take.

 

[Church_Militant]

“Witnessing” is about the only thing that most n-C churches that I was part of ever encouraged. Oh they told people to read their Bibles, but I found out as a SS teacher that they weren’t faithful about it and in fact I believe to this day that the percentages between faithful Catholics and n-Cs are really about the same.

Faith sharing is something that many people (Catholic & Non) feel ill qualified to do lest they mislead someone through their own lack of knowledge.

I think that if one reads the New Testament, one will pretty quickly discover that the early church spread the gospel first by their lifestyles and interactions with others and then by preaching and teaching and that it was an ongoing process.

As for today…I think that God is reviving Catholics as evangelists in part in response to the aggressive evangelization by anti-Catholics. The Church has always taught that the first mission field for us is our own families, and then to the unbelieving and the unchurched.

Catholics are also discovering sources to better know their faith like this forum and its parent main site and others like BCS and DCF (just to name a couple).
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Revelation13_16]

Consequently, a new wind is blowing in the field of Catholic Apologetics, and Protestants are coming into the Church in droves - especially fired up Evangelicals who ARE taking their new faith to the streets and the web.

You’ll notice this ‘to the streets’ mentality comes from Protestantism and not from Catholicism.

Now, to be fair, there are a lot of Catholics leaving the Church, as well. Frankly, they were dead wood, anyway, and I hope you can do something with them.

Perhaps it’s Catholicism that gave them the ‘dead wood’ attitude?

But let’s consider the exchange that is taking place. We’re getting fired-up, knowledgeable folks who know their Bible and understand why Catholicism is the true faith. Many of them are former pastors who are EAGER to share the full gospel and explain WHY sola scriptura and sola fide are a crock. You’re getting bitter and angry people with huge chips on their shoulders who never really understood their Catholic faith. Ironically, many of these folks revert to the Church once they realize that evangelicalism is not all its cracked up to be.

That may be a harsh, one-sided perspective, but that’s my take.

Here’s my take:

I have just recently come back to church, and I decided to go to an Anglican Cathedral because I just wanted to slip in and out without greeting people.

What happened was one guy introduced himself to me, and I later found out he was a Seminary student and well versed in a number of subjects like philosophy/Molinism etc that I am interested in.

On my second visit I was offered to have lunch with the minister, a new couple and this new friend and his wife.

This is true Christian fellowship.

I then went to check out an Anglo-Catholic service and nobody was interested in acknowledging except for that part in the Mass where you obligatorily say “Peace be with you” to everyone which smacks of hypocrisy considering that pre-mass and post-mass you won’t even say hello to them.

I understand this is but one experience, but then I think of the Orthodox church and their ‘clique’ mentality, and the fact that I’ve never been approached by a Catholic to be converted, and frankly I’m angry.

I happen to like the ritual overtones of Catholicism & Orthodoxy, but if it comes at the expense of evangelism then I can’t accept it.

Recently we have a thread about Protestants going to heaven or not. If you say no or even maybe, then one would think a Catholic should have ‘a burden for souls’ to try and enlighten their schismatic Christian brothers to come home.

Instead the only way you seem to be doing it is by getting lucky from evangelicals who through self-teaching (ironically as they were probably trying to convert Catholics) are coming to Catholicism and then using their Protestant given drive for Catholicism.

The fact is this:

Christianity has always been a religion for the common man, the stranger on the street.

God decided to use koine greek (common) because he was well aware he wanted this message to be understood even by the least educated plebian.

That’s why it wasn’t written in Pharisaic Hebrew, or Classical Latin or Classical Greek.

So when I am on the fence now, as a Protestant, weighing up whether I should jump ship to Catholicism or not, I’m thinking of ‘their fruits’ - Christ said you’ll know them by their fruits - and I’m thinking which group acts like the first Christians did - Protestants or Catholics?

Today, I think Protestants win that one hands down.

Now this doesn’t make them “right” but if we’re using the ‘fruit test’ they can’t be too far wrong then, unless God has happened to give them an incredibly powerful false faith to dupe others and themselves into going to hell.

Not likely, not from a God of love anyway

These are issues I wrestle with. I don’t want to.

If Catholics/Orthodox were more evangelical I could well be one today, but the fact they are not causes me to doubt their true love for their brothers - both Christian and not - and then I really have to wonder whether Christ is there afterall.

Love,
Rev

 

[I_Leatherman]

Frankly, I’d rather be right than popular. All this clapping people on the back, grinning, shaking hands all over the place…who needs it. People are gettin’ soft… I remember the time well… walk fifteen miles in the snow… chased … barefoot across mountains … redcoats shooting … frozen … mass rock on top of the mountain… hah … we survived not because we were chosey or grinning idiotically at each other… yammer…yammer…yammer…

 

[Baraq]

Watching a program on ETWN, I remember a RCC teacher quoting the apostle in this area

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

The RCC teacher said that evangelists MUST be qualified & sent by the Church, which differs from the typical evangelical today. Most big box denoms feel that the word must be sent out(even by the unqualified and those in error) using Is 55 as support "Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. "

My concern is that many evangelicals preach for ‘reward’ in heaven, or even to grow the coffers of their churches rather than for the glory of God. The OSAS doctrine makes propensity for error too extreme, as the believer can be misled by heresy to ‘accept Christ’…imo

As for the (I hope a minority)evangelicals that say Catholics go into perdition, I believe that is a thorn of their false teachings. Worse, this idea promotes hatred of their brethren and cultish isolation from the truth.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You’ll notice this ‘to the streets’ mentality comes from Protestantism and not from Catholicism.

I think there are any number of Catholic missionaries and orders that will be surprised to learn this. In fact, the Roman Catholic Church established a number of Missions in the Americas and other colonies through the Augustinians, Franciscans and Dominicans in order to spread Christianity in the New World and to convert the Native Americans and other indigenous people. At the same time, missionaries such as Francis Xavier as well as other Jesuits, Augustinians, Franciscans and Dominicans were moving into Asia and the far East. The Portuguese sent missions into Africa. These are some of the most well-known missions in history.

Perhaps it’s Catholicism that gave them the ‘dead wood’ attitude?

I think this is really from Satan, don’t you think?

Here’s my take:

II’ve never been approached by a Catholic to be converted, and frankly I’m angry.

So when I am on the fence now, as a Protestant, weighing up whether I should jump ship to Catholicism or not, I’m thinking of ‘their fruits’ - Christ said you’ll know them by their fruits - and I’m thinking which group acts like the first Christians did - Protestants or Catholics?

Today, I think Protestants win that one hands down.

Now this doesn’t make them “right” but if we’re using the ‘fruit test’ they can’t be too far wrong then, unless God has happened to give them an incredibly powerful false faith to dupe others and themselves into going to hell.

Not likely, not from a God of love anyway

These are issues I wrestle with. I don’t want to.

If Catholics/Orthodox were more evangelical I could well be one today, but the fact they are not causes me to doubt their true love for their brothers - both Christian and not - and then I really have to wonder whether Christ is there afterall.

Love,
Rev

I agree with much of what you have said.

In my opinion, Satan has been especially aggressive in attacking the Catholic Church for the past 100 years or so. I think this was foreseen, but that is another thread.

However, you personally can choose to be either on fire for a partial truth or on fire for the fullness of the Gospel.

Our battle is not with flesh and blood, but with principalities and powers. It doesn’t help that we Catholics take a lot of “friendly fire” from our Protestant brothers and sisters in the Lord.

We can always use another Francis of Assisi or Francis Xavier, so I hope you join us in the battle.

I’ll save a spot here on the ramparts for you.

 

[m134e5]

Why is it that there are so manyt more evangelizing Protestants than Catholics?

Because much of protestantism is based on personal experience, rather than simply accepting the teachings you have been given.

Why is it that they seem to have more fire?

See above. Also, some protestant groups tend to be more charismatic. They also have Sunday School every week where they are taught the teachings of their faith and have the opportunity to share/discuss it with others who feel the same way. Often, people go to Mass and don’t say a word to anyone but God.

Also, why is it that certain Protestant sects believe that all Catholics are going to hell, even people like Mother Teresa and John Paul II?

Because Catholicism seems wierd to them. Catholics use Elizabethan language when they say they “pray to” saints and to Mary. They don’t know their faith. The Church does not teach that smoking, drinking, or swearing are necessarily sinful, so you get a bunch of people who smoke, drink, and cuss all the time- like that’s ok. When there are so many rules to follow, it is easy to get caught up in the “because the Church says so attitude” (where everything is done out of habit, rather than out of love). Basically, because there are Catholics who give a bad example of the Faith.

How can we, as Catholics be filled with the same fire and conviction as our Protestant brothers and sisters?

Pray, read the bible, read about the saints, receive the Sacraments frequently. Find a group of Catholic friends who you can hang out with after Mass and during the week. Don’t bash the Church. Don’t bash priests or bishops (if they’re doing something wrong, deal with it as you have to- sitting around and complaining will get you nowhere).

 

[Jennifer_J]

I like St Francis words “Preach always, if necessary use words.” I hope that my life as a Catholic is a witness to the Church and her teachings. I have a family with small children, it’s not exactly easy to go out and preach on the street (esp when it’s -12 brrrrr). I don’t think I have much of a gift of preaching, anyway. I choose to use my gift of motherhood and being faithful to the Church to serve as my testimony. I’m also able to be a fairly effective teacher–so I ‘evangelize’ through our parish’s Faith Formation (I serve on that committee, too) or through vacation bible school, etc. So there are many ways to share the Gospel without being a missonary or a street preacher. Often, our actions and non actions speak louder than words…

Jennifer

 

[scriabin]

I believe the OP and responding posters all make excellent points.

A few of my observations as a Baptist turned Catholic:

I actually *prefer *the Catholic quiet, docile, leave-others-their-prayer space attitude rather than my old experiences of loud, boisterous, in-your-face, make-yourselves-at-home back-slapping.

Sound doctrinal truth is also one of the fruits we should be looking for; and if you’re convinced the Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth then I believe this is your conscience telling you to join her.

If you don’t like some things the Church does, roll up your sleeves and change it! Maybe God is calling you to renew His Church in some way.

We humans can work ourselves up into a frenzy about alot of things. My family has been rabid Kansas City Chiefs fans for over 40 years. Now that’s enthusiasm. Same with your average evangelical church that’s been around for ten years or so.

Evangelical enthusiasm is great; but is it from God? Sorry to step on any toes here, but I’ve experienced people “on-fire for Christ” say I’m going to hell as a Catholic. They’re flat wrong and “on-fire for I-don’t-know-who.”

Another thing–the Catholic Church is humongous. One reason being is that she accepts a large number of lackadaisical Christians whose faith is small as a pepper grain and growing at a snail’s pace.

Since they lack evangelizing personalities these Christians are discounted by evangelical churches who discount those whose faith is smaller and unlike their own.

I was a militant Catholic for six of my fourteen Catholic years. It doesn’t work. It turns people away. The high pressure sales pitch of the evangelical can work because they’re typically selling you Jesus-in-a-nutshell: Make a one-time sinner’s prayer and you’re in.

If the true faith were so easy maybe Catholics would do it this
way.

 

[scylla]

You want to see militant Catholics go to www.allroadsministry.com you will see militant Catholics.

This not always comes out with good results as people these days are a bunch of wimps.
If you tell them they are wrong they get angry, and don’t listen.
If you tell them something is a sin, they get offended as you are judging them.
If you tell them that Catholicism is right they think you are saying you are better than them.

We have become so politically correct and womanly* that we cannot have normal discussions about religion anymore.

• I don’t mean the good womanly but the type that is caricatured by gay men.

I believe that in your face Catholicism will rarely work, yet wimpy no evangelizing Catholicism does nothing either. You need to have tough but gentle communication that witnesses the truth of Jesus without beating people over the head.

Your ok and I am ok does no good and we have seen that with the destruction of Catholic culture and catechesis in the last 40 or so years. I had a lady say to me that she doesn’t evangelize since the others are ok and she doesn’t want to bother them, and half the class agreed! This is the result of wimpy Catholicism.

This doesn’t mean that we act like the street preachers yelling at everyone that they are going to hell, but we sure do need to be better witnesses to the Church than we are these days.

God Bless
Scylla