Doctor William Lane Craig

[aprilfloyd]

I’m curious how you can be a Catholic if you believe gods are man made fictions?

I was raised a Catholic and confirmed a catholic by Catholic parents.

My Catholic upbring can’t change the fact that God’s are fictions.

It would be fascinating to discover a god did exist. That story would be huge.

 

[mab23]

“Using” evidence is not the same as using sound arguments. There is a great deal of circumstantial evidence that many find compelling, but which does not amount to anything like a proof or even a logically convincing argument.

Hitchens, et al, are/were quite willing to accept the most meager evidence in support of an atheist position, but completely abstain from accepting a greater abundance of better quality evidence to support a theist position.

You could not have seen Craig in “debates” with Dawkins because they have never debated each other, although Dawkins and Craig were involved in a panel discussion on atheism featuring 6 (I think) panelists which did not bring them into direct debate.

Hitchens*** never ***“wiped the floor” with Craig except to the most biased analyst. They were quite evenly matched and Craig did a masterful job diffusing Hitchen’s important points. Harris was not even close and neither were Grayling, Atkins, Price, Stenger or Krauss among the other distinguished atheists he has encountered.

very well put

 

[aprilfloyd]

Hitchens wiped the floor with him… even Hitchens know he didn’t do well and said at least he had the b**ls to go up and debate him unlike Dawkins.

Lennox and Dawkins went back and forth and they both raised some valid points but Lennox was giving him more a hard time than I think would be good for his image which is why I think Dawkins no longer debates Lennox

I also just got the book God-less dilusion which rips aparts Dawkins book

I like your Dawkins pic.

But seriously, of course he just like anyone can write about anything.
As an evolutionary biologist he will study natural phenomena to understand why we are here and why we exist. It makes sense to study humans and their propensity to create God’s and religions.

 

[mab23]

I was raised a Catholic and confirmed a catholic by Catholic parents.

My Catholic upbring can’t change the fact that God’s are fictions.

It would be fascinating to discover a god did exist. That story would be huge.

I was raised Catholic and confirmed by Catholic priests and I was poorly catechized and walked away to atheism until about a year ago when I did some long hard research and now I am here.

I guess we can come to the Conclusion you don’t believe in God may I ask what you believe April??

 

[aprilfloyd]

In what area?

I don’t have a set of beliefs, if that what you mean, in the religuous sense

 

[mab23]

In what area?

I don’t have a set of beliefs, if that what you mean, in the religuous sense

well you have that you are raised Catholic but by your posts it seems you do not subscribe to a religion or believe in God (s)

so would you consider yourself a Theist, Agno/athei

 

[mab23]

Sorry I just love memes!

 

[aprilfloyd]

well you have that you are raised Catholic but by your posts it seems you do not subscribe to a religion or believe in God (s)

so would you consider yourself a Theist, Agno/athei

I find it a quaint notion that humans have a desire to label themselves.
I find the term ‘atheist’ does not fit me as it’s strange way of thinking.

We don’t have words for people who don’t believe in unicorns, or Santa, so why God’s?

 

[mab23]

I find it a quaint notion that humans have a desire to label themselves.
I find the term ‘atheist’ does not fit me as it’s strange way of thinking.

We don’t have words for people who don’t believe in unicorns, or Santa, so why God’s?

I find it funny you equate unicorns or Santa to God (s)

I don’t see how you correlate Santa or Unicorns with God and most importantly Jesus

I mean about every historian agrees Jesus existed , we have evidence for Jesus more than we have evidence for Socrates and other people

also Jesus according to the Gospels stated he was God and built a church (which is verified by non-christian documents) which at first was a death sentence to be in but now is the largest Religion in the World Counting for a 6th of the population … but you equate God with a unicorn doesn’t sound fitting and sounds rather amateurish I mean this is the stuff I hear from middleschoolers… no mean to insult you but you asked a question you very well know the answer too

 

[aprilfloyd]

I find it funny you equate unicorns or Santa to God (s)

I don’t see how you correlate Santa or Unicorns with God and most importantly Jesus

I mean about every historian agrees Jesus existed , we have evidence for Jesus more than we have evidence for Socrates and other people

also Jesus according to the Gospels stated he was God and built a church (which is verified by non-christian documents) which at first was a death sentence to be in but now is the largest Religion in the World Counting for a 6th of the population … but you equate God with a unicorn doesn’t sound fitting and sounds rather amateurish I mean this is the stuff I hear from middleschoolers… no mean to insult you but you asked a question you very well know the answer too

D

I don’t doubt a person called Jesus existed and that he was a good person, but more people who believe in God , don’t believe Jesus was god - Muslims and jews

I equate God’s with Santa and unicorns because they fictions too, taught to young people

 

[mab23]

D

I don’t doubt a person called Jesus existed and that he was a good person, but more people who believe in God , don’t believe Jesus was god - Muslims and jews

I equate God’s with Santa and unicorns because they fictions too, taught to young people

im not sure what your stance is, but what I gather is you believe Jesus existed may or may not believe he is God but you equate god(s) plural like the Hindu gods and talk about them being told to young people - I was never taught Unicorns were real, and I wasn’t really told Santa was real as a child but it was never really denied either until I came out and said so at like age 9 but I don’t see how equating Santa which is factually made up to God I mean we can disprove mythical Gods like the Hindu gods but Christianity has a darn good case unlike any other religion… what may I ask bothers you about Christianity??

 

[aprilfloyd]

im not sure what your stance is, but what I gather is you believe Jesus existed may or may not believe he is God but you equate god(s) plural like the Hindu gods and talk about them being told to young people - I was never taught Unicorns were real, and I wasn’t really told Santa was real as a child but it was never really denied either until I came out and said so at like age 9 but I don’t see how equating Santa which is factually made up to God I mean we can disprove mythical Gods like the Hindu gods but Christianity has a darn good case unlike any other religion… what may I ask bothers you about Christianity??

I don’t see how you can differentiate Christianity from other religions
They are all made up.
Christianity makes some pretty big claims, which I feel requires some pretty big evidence, but it is taught as though true.

I feel the comparison with Santa is a valid one

 

[Peter_Plato]

I find it a quaint notion that humans have a desire to label themselves.
I find the term ‘atheist’ does not fit me as it’s strange way of thinking.

We don’t have words for people who don’t believe in unicorns, or Santa, so why God’s?

So you are claiming that theists are unable to distinguish between unicorns and God? That theists are basically deluded individuals because they think belief in God is quite a different matter than belief in unicorns, but really there is no difference?

Somehow, you have been able to grasp the fact that there is, in reality, no difference between the two beliefs, but individuals like John Lennox, G.K. Chesterton, CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, among billions of others, are/were just too thick to “get” the fact that there really is no difference?

You have the intellectual capacity to see through the delusion of a difference whereas all these very bright individuals just didn’t/don’t get it? You must be very sure of yourself to chalk this whole God thing up to the fact that even very seemingly brilliant individuals cannot recognize the difference between the existence of Santa Claus and the existence of a Creator.

Perhaps you are the one missing some aspect of the idea that has escaped your mental abilities. A possibility, perhaps?

 

[aprilfloyd]

:

So you are claiming that theists are unable to distinguish between unicorns and God? That theists are basically deluded individuals because they think belief in God is quite a different matter than belief in unicorns, but really there is no difference?

Somehow, you have been able to grasp the fact that there is, in reality, no difference between the two beliefs, but individuals like John Lennox, G.K. Chesterton, CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, among billions of others, are/were just too thick to “get” the fact that there really is no difference?

You have the intellectual capacity to see through the delusion of a difference whereas all these very bright individuals just didn’t/don’t get it? You must be very sure of yourself to chalk this whole God thing up to the fact that even very seemingly brilliant individuals cannot recognize the difference between the existence of Santa Claus and the existence of a Creator.

Perhaps you are the one missing some aspect of the idea that has escaped your mental abilities. A possibility, perhaps?

I am suggesting, there is no difference between believing in one thing that does not exist and other thing that does not exist.

I don’t think they are thick, more deluded. I can see the comforting attractions of religion, but to believe in something fictional is a delusion and to pretend, just like children beleiving in Santa or fairies.

 

[mab23]

I don’t see how you can differentiate Christianity from other religions
They are all made up.
Christianity makes some pretty big claims, which I feel requires some pretty big evidence, but it is taught as though true.

I feel the comparison with Santa is a valid one

your right it does require some big evidence

what evidence for Christianity are you looking for?

we have historical writings about Jesus life death miracles and Resurrection . There are also many ancient non-Christian sources for the life of Jesus. These are: Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, Emperor Trajan, Emperor Hadrian, The Talmud, Lucian, Mara Bar-Serapion. There are also ancient Christian and Gnostic sources plus many more.

well from the bible and History we know he built a church Matthew 16:18 one the gates of Hell will not destroy… well we have the Catholic church that has survived the last 2000 years through the rise and fall of empires and nations

we have people who look at the evidence from different stand points people who were Atheist , Lee Strobel is one of them there is another book that looks at the historical writings as if it were a cold case murder file and using the same methods come to the Conclusions that Jesus was real, he died and came back.

now this is not the evidence you want you want something so definitive you can touch it but there is more than sufficient evidence for Christianity which takes up a 6th of the worlds population a Religion Jesus started with just a few people now the Largest religion in the world

you keep saying its made up, yet do not provide what you seem to know and we don’t “what really happened” or why it was made up. you can go ahead and play the burden of proof is on me game but it looks silly on your part if you do…

I know what you need , you need a little faith and that April is not taught it is caught :yup:

I will pray for you

 

[aprilfloyd]

your right it does require some big evidence

what evidence for Christianity are you looking for?

we have historical writings about Jesus life death miracles and Resurrection . There are also many ancient non-Christian sources for the life of Jesus. These are: Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, Emperor Trajan, Emperor Hadrian, The Talmud, Lucian, Mara Bar-Serapion. There are also ancient Christian and Gnostic sources plus many more.

well from the bible and History we know he built a church Matthew 16:18 one the gates of Hell will not destroy… well we have the Catholic church that has survived the last 2000 years through the rise and fall of empires and nations

we have people who look at the evidence from different stand points people who were Atheist , Lee Strobel is one of them there is another book that looks at the historical writings as if it were a cold case murder file and using the same methods come to the Conclusions that Jesus was real, he died and came back.

now this is not the evidence you want you want something so definitive you can touch it but there is more than sufficient evidence for Christianity which takes up a 6th of the worlds population a Religion Jesus started with just a few people now the Largest religion in the world

you keep saying its made up, yet do not provide what you seem to know and we don’t “what really happened” or why it was made up. you can go ahead and play the burden of proof is on me game but it looks silly on your part if you do…

I know what you need , you need a little faith and that April is not taught it is caught :yup:

I will pray for you

The burden of proof on you is not a game - outlandish claims requires strong evidence
The majority of people don’t believe in the Christian god.

 

[mab23]

The burden of proof on you is not a game - outlandish claims requires strong evidence
The majority of people don’t believe in the Christian god.

so your stance is that majority of people don’t believe something therefore it cannot be true… what about a majority of people believe in a God is that the Majority you would fall under??

also there was a time when a majority of people believed in a geocentric universe that didn’t make it true did it…?

a majority of people also believed in a infinite static universe until the theory of a Catholic priest was proposed and later proven to what we know as the big bang…

for me to look at tomorrow what is the hardest party of Christianity for you to believe … something specific not “all of it”

I must go to bed now I have to wake up early but till tomorrow have a good night

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

Woah! This thread really took off.

Well, I’ll give my own views. I think he is very intelligent and a good man. I reckon that, simply because of how he is, some people will dislike him. But then it was the same with Jesus. I think Richard Dawkins is scared to debate with him. I’ve thus far only watched him debate Harris and Hitchens. He thrashed Hitchens. Harris did a decent job in avoiding the subject, but anyone with a scrap of intelligence could see he failed miserably as well. Where I think Craig excels is in the fundamental point of “Keeping on topic”. These famous atheists spend 90% of their time attacking religion. Harris spent his whole time doing that. But we can see from Craig debating Hitchens that ALL the evidence is in favour of there being a supernatural, intelligent designer. Personally I am going through a stage where I have doubts about many things. Craig has firmly helped me with the “God exists” part (the first step). He has given me confidence to then go on to the next steps… I’ll take things one at a time and, rest assured, I won’t fall for the traditional atheist tactic of going all out trying to criticize certain details without looking at the whole picture.

I really think that the Catholic Church needs people like Craig. He uses the same format and the same arguments each time he debates. But this is wonderful because he is simply looking at the facts using logic without any bias coming in. He lays stuff out in a straight forward manner and it is this tactic that leaves the atheists speechless. As of now I’m going to be praying for Doctor Craig that he’ll keep up the good work and, hopefully, become a Catholic!

 

[aprilfloyd]

-gasp- -choke- -suffocate-

Are you seriously kidding? Is that what you really, truly see?

In every single debate I have seen of an atheist, the atheist ALWAYS turns to emotional response and sets up a straw man argument with an entirely incorrect view of religion to destroy. I have never, in my life, seen an atheist’s argument use facts, reason, or logic.

Furthermore, provided with large amounts of evidence to prove the existence of God, they somehow manage to keep their mind so closed that they can’t even make a succinct and correct response to the evidence!

I think you will find that most atheists are quite willing to accept evidence for a god. It is just that there is none. In all my time as a catholic, I have never seen, heard or been directed to evidence for god. If anything catholics get emotional about the topic and expect, people to believe with them with not much more of any argument than simply ‘because He does’ - that is not very intellectually satisfying.

WLC does not prove god exists - he just re-iterates that because human endeavour does not prove goes does not exit - the he must - I think they call it the god of the gaps. By that logic we should believe in santa clause or unicorns or little green men. If god existed it would be a major scoop and all over the media.

 

[aprilfloyd]

so your stance is that majority of people don’t believe something therefore it cannot be true… what about a majority of people believe in a God is that the Majority you would fall under??

No. I thought that was your point.

also there was a time when a majority of people believed in a geocentric universe that didn’t make it true did it…?

I agree

a majority of people also believed in a infinite static universe until the theory of a Catholic priest was proposed and later proven to what we know as the big bang…

I agree

for me to look at tomorrow what is the hardest party of Christianity for you to believe … something specific not “all of it”

There is to much to mention but some would include

• Jesus was son of a god
• Mary was a virgin mother
• No evidence for gods
• why should one believe Catholic Version of god and not the 1,000s of others
• Bigotry towards homosexuals and lesbians
• Church’s involvement in sex altogether - why?
• paedophilia and celibate priests
• misogyny
• The total inability for Catholic God to present himself in a way humans would understand and could interact with - if there is a god it would be the most amazing discovery ever and think what could be achieved with such a resource - health, hunger, poverty the implications would be enormous
• Bible being taken literally
• Transubstantiation
• Existence of devils
• Contraception advice
• Gay Marriage

The list is endless…