Doctors in denial

[kama3]

if they can’t be convinced by video of extremely early-term babies grabbing fingers

Baby gorillas grab fingers as well: peoplepets.com/people/pets/gallery/0,20491014_20954352,00.html Should we equate them with humans because of that?

It’s amazing we are not that different from the rest of animal kingdom afer all…

 

[John1956]

Who cares what “sufficiently complex brain” means. At the moment of fertilization, a person comes into being, self-aware or not. My brain may not be sufficiently complex, and sometimes I don’t have self-awareness. So what.

John

 

[Jonatello]

A pro-lifer believes that once a genetically distinct and genetically human organism is formed, it becomes a new person. A single-cellular person that is, but a person nonetheless. (This definition runs into several problems, i.e. with cloning, but I will pass over that for now.)

A lot of people believe that being a person is associated with self-awareness (or, in religious terms, having a soul). We know from biology that self-awareness is associated with brain cortex, hence – until the fetus in question develops a sufficiently complex brain, it is inherently incapable of self-awareness (in religious terms, it cannot posses a soul). Nobody knows for sure what sufficiently complex brain actually means, but it is obvious that humans in early development stages, having no brain at all, do not qualify.

we know self-awareness is biologically associated with brain cortex, but we don’t truly understand the nature of that association, nor the relationship between the brain and mind, nor the nature between the conscious mind and intrinsic value.

a theory gaining more traction lately (as the field of quantum physics gains more traction) is that the brain may in fact be more of a radio that picks up and passes along the signal/frequencies of the mind rather than the source of the mind. if that is true, then the soul could very well be present before the brain.

with regards to the relationship between consciousness<>brain and personhood<>consciousness, nothing is obvious yet.

 

[Jonatello]

Baby gorillas grab fingers as well: peoplepets.com/people/pets/gallery/0,20491014_20954352,00.html Should we equate them with humans because of that?

in terms of respecting their dignity as beings with life and intrinsic value personal to them? yes we should.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Two scenarios:

1. Father & pregnant mother driving to Planned Parenthood to abort their child. On the way the father has a change of heart and begs the mother to reconsider. The mother refuses to reconsider and follows through with the abortion. Law says, legal, go for it, it’s not killing a human being. (Mother goes home free.)
2. Father & pregnant mother driving to Planned Parenthood to abort their child. On the way the mother has a change of heart and begs the father to reconsider. The father refuses to reconsider and hits her in the stomach and kills the baby. Law says, illegal, it** is killing a human being**. (Father goes to jail.)

So which is it? Is it a human being or not? If it is, is it okay to kill it? Who decides? Who gives them the power to decide? How can it be both murder and not murder at the same time?

If you go hunting with a group of friends, and you see a bush moving, yet one of your friends is missing…do you shoot? or do you not shoot because you can’t guarantee that the bush is just moving because your missing friend could be the one moving it?

There is no good and viable reason to shoot.

 

[Jonatello]

Two scenarios:

1. Father & pregnant mother driving to Planned Parenthood to abort their child. On the way the father has a change of heart and begs the mother to reconsider. The mother refuses to reconsider and follows through with the abortion. Law says, legal, go for it, it’s not killing a human being. (Mother goes home free.)
2. Father & pregnant mother driving to Planned Parenthood to abort their child. On the way the mother has a change of heart and begs the father to reconsider. The father refuses to reconsider and hits her in the stomach and kills the baby. Law says, illegal, it** is** killing a human being. (Father goes to jail.)

So which is it? Is it a human being or not? If it is, is it okay to kill it? Who decides? Who gives them the power to decide? How can it be both murder and not murder at the same time?

If you go hunting with a group of friends, and you see a bush moving, yet one of your friends is missing…do you shoot? or do you not shoot because you can’t guarantee that the bush is just moving because your missing friend could be the one moving it?

There is no good and viable reason to shoot.

yeah lol i actually was using a very similar hunting analogy of my own the other day with some people. its insane that people would er on the side of kill when it comes to such uncertainties

 

[E.E.N.S]

yeah lol i actually was using a very similar hunting analogy of my own the other day with some people. its insane that people would er on the side of kill when it comes to such uncertainties

Especially doctors and mothers!

 

[Jonatello]

Especially doctors and mothers!

pretty much anyone who thinks “abortion is ok since we don’t know”

 

[John1956]

So you want the mother to be safe while she allows her baby to be killed? Doesn’t make much sense to me.

I have a better idea: Let’s strive to make sure that all expectant mothers in crisis get the help they need so that all mothers and all unborn babies can live.

John

 

[John1956]

A big problem is…even if abortions are illegal, some women will still have them and/or some men will still want or force them to. They’ve been doing it for centuries. The old dirty, rusty coat hanger in a back room somewhere. And then we have a dead baby AND a dead mother…

So you want the mother to be safe while she allows her baby to be killed? Doesn’t make much sense to me.

I have a better idea: Let’s strive to make sure that all expectant mothers in crisis get the help they need so that all mothers and all unborn babies can live.

John

 

[Jonatello]

A big problem is…even if abortions are illegal, some women will still have them and/or some men will still want or force them to. They’ve been doing it for centuries. The old dirty, rusty coat hanger in a back room somewhere. And then we have a dead baby AND a dead mother…

which is why i, as a someone who is very pro-life, tend to disagree and somewhat butt heads with a lot of fellow pro-lifers

i don’t believe it should be legal (outside of rare occasions when the mother is in grave danger), but the law books aren’t what i care most about…its the lives.

and like you said, if it was made illegal today, abortions may reduce some, but still too many mothers for my taste would still try to abort and kill 2 people rather than 1. Not to mention that we can’t go back in time and my hunch is that “safe” abortions would still be widely available via loopholes and wink-wink norms would form a la prohibition. I feel like the legal battle today is little more than a futile symbolic waste of energy, resources, and good will.

However if we were to focus the VAST MAJORITY of our power and energy on the reasons why pregnant women choose to abort, if we could change the circumstances that make being pregnant so terrifying for them, and promote LOVE rather than judgement, then we’d see much more drastic and real results.

most women abort out of some kind of fear, not because some legal allowance is burning a hole in their pocket.

laws don’t kill babies, abortions kill babies.

 

[E.E.N.S]

A big problem is…even if abortions are illegal, some women will still have them and/or some men will still want or force them to. They’ve been doing it for centuries. The old dirty, rusty coat hanger in a back room somewhere. And then we have a dead baby AND a dead mother…

So what you are saying is that MILLIONS of “clean” murders is better than a significantly smaller number of “dirty” murders and the death of a few of the murderers?

Maybe if someone is trying to kill me I shouldn’t try and resist, because he might accidentally cut himself with the knife he is using to stab me with and he could get an infection.

 

[E.E.N.S]

which is why i, as a someone who is very pro-life, tend to disagree and somewhat butt heads with a lot of fellow pro-lifers

i don’t believe it should be legal (outside of rare occasions when the mother is in grave danger), but the law books aren’t what i care most about…its the lives.

and like you said, if it was illegal, abortions may reduce, but still too many mothers for my taste would still try to abort and kill 2 people rather than 1. Furthermore, its little more than a futile symbolic waste of energy, resources, and good will at this point in time.

however if we were to focus the VAST MAJORITY of our power and energy on the reasons why pregnant women choose to abort, if we could change the circumstances that make being pregnant so terrifying for them, and promote LOVE rather than judgement, then we’d see much more drastic and real results.

most women abort out of some kind of fear, not because some legal allowance is burning a hole in their pocket.

laws don’t kill babies, abortions kill babies.

I wholeheartedly agree that we need to change the hearts and understanding of these people, but I don’t buy into the “coat-hanger argument” for a reason to not change the laws.

 

[Jonatello]

So what you are saying is that MILLIONS of “clean” murders is better than a significantly smaller number of “dirty” murders and the death of a few of the murderers?

Maybe if someone is trying to kill me I shouldn’t try and resist, because he might accidentally cut himself with the knife he is using to stab me with and he could get an infection.

i don’t believe it would be significant at all, i edited my previous post to further elaborate, but i don’t think making it illegal today would turn the times back to pre-Roe-V-Wade at all.

and looking at terrified mothers who abort in the same light we look at hardened criminals is unfair…we shouldn’t feel ok with mothers dying because their fear/confusion drove them to such a horrible decision.

 

[Jonatello]

I wholeheartedly agree that we need to change the hearts and understanding of these people, but I don’t buy into the “coat-hanger argument” for a reason to not change the laws.

my point is changing the laws on abortion won’t do nearly as much good as changing the circumstances of abortion.

and furthermore, changing the laws of abortion just isn’t going to happen in a society where half the people support it…so spending so much focused time, energy, votes, money, anger, devotion, burned bridges, etc on it does little more than stroke our own “altar egos”

at the expense of hardened hearts and dead babies

 

[Jonatello]

Does the Catholic religion, with all the tithing (sp?) have funds to offer so that a pregnant woman of any religion can be taken care of financially, fed, housed, etc…for the nine months that she is pregnant?
That would be ideal.

Catholic Charities and charitable Catholics alike don’t discriminate by religion. They serve the needy. Period.

But does the Catholic church and all it’s organizations have enough resources to help EVERY scared pregnant woman in a bind? No, which is why I believe many socioeconomic realities must be better addressed.

 

[Jonatello]

So you want the mother to be safe while she allows her baby to be killed? Doesn’t make much sense to me.

I don’t want her to have her baby killed, but yeah I’d rather her not also die in the process. It’s called love and mercy.

I have a better idea: Let’s strive to make sure that all expectant mothers in crisis get the help they need so that all mothers and all unborn babies can live.

Amen to that! We’re on exactly the same page here!

 

[Jonatello]

But I also thing many are poor and young and alone…and need financial help and a support system…

.

bingo. that’s exactly what i mean when i say address the circumstances. social and economic realities that make a pregnancy far more terrifying than it needs to be in our world with all its riches.

 

[St_Francis]

bingo. that’s exactly what i mean when i say address the circumstances. social and economic realities that make a pregnancy far more terrifying than it needs to be in our world with all its riches.

when you say address the circumstances, what do you envision?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Oh, HEAVENS!!!
Re-read my post and then re-read it again. I merely pointed out a difficult and very realistic problem. I didn’t say any of what you are saying, above…just calm yourself!

I am calm enough. I just can’t help it, hearing the “coat-hanger” argument makes me sick, (to say the least.) Perhaps you weren’t using it as an argument, but it wasn’t clear by your post, hence the reason I said, “So what you’re saying is…?”