Doctrine of Co Redeemer and Mediatrix

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Sociallycal

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Hello all,
This is my first post. I have tried to Google on the following topics but have not had any chance successful because so many articles have been written but still not as sure as I can be.

As a Catholic, dogmas are necessary to uphold, apart from Scriptures and Traditions. I can accept the four dogmas of Virgin Mary (perpetual virginity, Mother of God, Assumption and Immaculate Conception)

However, there is two more glaring doctrines, which is co-redeemer and co-mediatrix which also bring us to the issue of the Rosary and asking Mary to pray for us.

We understand that in the Bible, Elijah and Enoch is also assumed into Heaven, and we never pray through them or taught to do so at the time of Our Lord. The truth is that even at Transfiguration, It is our Lord, Moses and Elijah.

So, my question is, will I get ex communicated if I dun ask Mary to pray for me, and do not use rosary?
 
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Hi, welcome to the forums.

You’re not going to get “ex-communicated” over any of this.

The Rosary is not required of any Catholic. Recommended, not required. Some Catholics do not like to pray it and thus pray some other prayer instead.

Asking Mary or any other saint is not required, except when it comes up in the Mass prayers, specifically the Confiteor in which the congregation specifically requests prayers from Mary, the saints, and those in the Church on earth. The Confiteor is not always said at Mass, but when it is, the congregation is expected to recite it.

Mary as Co-redemptrix is NOT a doctrine of the church. We have just had a very long thread on that, which I will link so you can read it.
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Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused Sacred Scripture
Pope Francis says having Mary as co-redemptrix is foolishness … any thoughts?
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(I would suggest that for questions like this you use the forum search or even Google search to find past threads because we are asked many of these same questions over and over again so there are many past threads with information that you might find helpful.)

Mary is not “Co-mediatrix”. The Church teaches that Mary is our mediatrix with Jesus (as she was at the Wedding at Cana, in Scripture) and Jesus is our mediator with the Father. Mary is your mother, given to you by Jesus, and she is probably going to mediate for you with Jesus whether you ask her or not because she loves you and that’s her job. As mentioned above, you do not have to ask her intercession.

As for “We never pray through Elijah or Enoch”, one can ask the intercession of Elijah or Enoch any time one wants. I’m pretty sure I’ve asked Elijah to pray for me as he is considered a Carmelite founder.
Also please remember that when Jesus was hanging on the cross and called out to God, the bystanders thought he was calling out to Elijah (Matthew 27:47), suggesting that it was not unusual to ask Elijah for his intercession.

The Transfiguration has nothing to do with this entire matter and I would caution you that we are not a sola scriptura church and if you are Catholic you should not be relying on your own (unusual) interpretations of Scripture but rather you should be following Church teaching.
 
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Hello Brother,

Thank you for the comprehensive reply. I did a few errors it should be mediatrix, not co-mediatrix. Thanks for highlighting the error. I know it got shot down trying to be the dogma. I will try to read up on the link you provided. Thank u very much!

Perhaps talking about Transfiguration is a bit too far off. I agreed.

Your reply clears up alot of problem.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Mary as Co-redemptrix is NOT a doctrine of the church. We have just had a very long thread on that, which I will link so you can read it.
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The term “Co-Redemptrix” may not be doctrinal, though it has been used by at least three Popes, one of which used it in a very weighty document–an Encyclical (Iucunda Semper).

But the orthodox understanding of the term “Co-Redemptrix” is doctrinal. In other words, that Mary had a singular union with Christ in the work of our salvation is Church doctrine.

As Vatican II puts it:
  1. Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was on this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. She presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.
    Lumen gentium
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Tis Bearself is not your brother or anyone else’s. She is a woman. Just so you know.
 
Welcome to Catholic Answers, Sociallycal. I hope you enjoy your time here.
 
Thank You Patricius! A place to clear up my doubts. Sure helpful.
 
I hope it will help. But you know, you’d be comfortable asking any of us to pray for you, wouldn’t you? Praying to Mary is like that, it’s like any of us saying to another person, “please pray with me to God”.

In fact the word pray means ‘ask’, and it was never directed ‘only to God’. When you read Shakespeare (and I hope you do), you will often read the words, “Prithee”, which is ‘pray thee’ and it is from characters to other characters. It simply means, “I ask you”.

So praying to Mary is never the ‘sole end’ (or any other saint, for that matter). It is simply asking her (or asking them) to join in with your prayer (asking, petition, thanksgiving, etc.) whose ultimate end is God. Always.

Hope that helps!
 
Hello Stpurl, you are the post I have been waiting for !

I going to throw something controversial. I know that in the Medieval time, people lacking in the literacy of Bible (due to education level), the price of the Bible is very costly (it can be made of animal skin, and no printing technology). Hence Bible was limited to the Clergy.

Hence, there is a popular belief among people that Jesus Christ our LORD is righteous and judgement GOD, like described in the Revelations. Hence, the general population dare not pray directly to our Lord, instead they pray through His Mother.

This belief could be nicely summed up in the Little Flowers of St Francis by Friar Leo. He describe a scene of the Red and White Ladders.

The lacking of access to Bible only become better after the 1500s,.
 
Sociallycal said:
I going to throw something controversial. I know that in the Medieval time, people lacking in the literacy of Bible (due to education level), the price of the Bible is very costly (it can be made of animal skin, and no printing technology). Hence Bible was limited to the Clergy.

Hence, there is a popular belief among people that Jesus Christ our LORD is righteous and judgement GOD, like described in the Revelations. Hence, the general population dare not pray directly to our Lord, instead they pray through His Mother.
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So your opinion is that the belief that we need a Mediatrix with God the Son, came from ignorance of Scripture?
 
Actually, I think it is a little controversial. First, prayer to Mary existed from (in written form; in oral form it existed even earlier) the 3rd century A.D. (well before the Medieval era).
Second, the clergy from the earliest time (apostles) prayed many times a day, using usually Psalms and scripture readings from the old and new testament. They still do today. This was the breviary. During the course of the day, there were nine “hours” in which the monks and priests prayed. Over the course of the day, the 150 psalms were prayed.
But lay people wanted to pray as well. Since they did not know the 150 psalms they used 150 Hail Marys and Our Fathers. The origin of the rosary is attributed to St. Dominic in the early 13th century.
The thing is, the rosary wasn’t prayed ‘in lieu of’ Scripture. The rosary prayers are scriptural, the fact that the ‘mysteries’ (all 15 at that time) were on Scriptural events, and thus the prayers were in addition to the Mass (near daily at this time period). People sneer today at ‘rote memory’ but people learned the Latin Pater Noster and Ave Maria and Gloria Patri easily.

The rosary did not, IOW, come about as a one-time ‘sub’ for ‘the real deal Bible’.

I would like to recommend Father Donald Calloway’s “Champions of the Rosary”. . .if you have Kindle unlimited, just go upload it.
 
Sociallycal said:
Hence, the general population dare not pray directly to our Lord, instead they pray through His Mother.
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That’s incorrect. There has never, repeat NEVER, been a time when the Church discouraged praying directly to Our Lord. Where are you getting these ideas from? Are you a recent convert who has been listening to Protestants?

Catholics pray to Mary because we love her. We also pray to Jesus directly for the same reason.

By the way, please note that Jesus is a major part of every Rosary mystery…EVERY ONE…in fact in the Luminous mysteries there are Rosary mysteries where Mary was not physically present. The Rosary is a Jesus prayer. You are still not required to say it but please at least understand what it is.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
That’s incorrect. There has never, repeat NEVER, been a time when the Church discouraged praying directly to Our Lord. Where are you getting these ideas from? Are you a recent convert who has been listening to Protestants?

Catholics pray to Mary because we love her. We also pray to Jesus directly for the same reason.
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That’s right. And in fact, Mary is the way to our Lord, and fosters our immediate union with Christ.

Even if a man doesn’t understand Mary’s role, or doesn’t happen to think of her when he prays, it is because she conceived and bore Christ, and constantly intercedes for each of us, that he can and does approach Him.
 
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Here is a prayer to a Saint or “Holy One” (and an answer to that prayer) Sociallycal . . .

(From a prior post of mine) . . . .

Heavenly angels are “holy ones” or “saints” (i.e. SAINT Michael the archangel is an example of a saint).

Here is a Heavenly Angelic saint who was explicitly asked by Jacob/Israel for a blessing from that Angel (Jacob/Israel gets the blessing from this Heavenly Saint that he asks for).

.

Jacob . . .

But Jacob said, “I will not let you go, unless you bless me.”

Angelic host action . . .

And there he blessed him.

.

Jacob-Israel received that blessing that he asked of that saint in the Bible.
GENESIS 32:26-29 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the day is breaking.”
But Jacob said, “I will not let you go, unless you bless me.”
27 And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28
Then he said,
“Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
29 Then Jacob asked him, “Tell me, I pray, your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?”
And there he blessed him.
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.

And here is St. Paul at least thinking he somehow has been "crucified WITH or “co” Christ.
GALATIANS 2:20 20 I have been crucified with (“Co”) Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me ; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
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So the question is, does our (Roman’s 6:3) being Crucified with Christ, somehow get associated with Christ’s Redemption? Or is it mere trivia?

Since only Jesus can redeem by His NATURE, if St. Paul (and we too) has a participation in this redemption it could only be by GRACE (not by NATURE).

What does the CCC tell us about being made participants in Redemption by grace?

Fortunately we don’t have to speculate. The answer is right in CCC 618.
CCC 618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”.452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”,454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. 456
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person IN the mystery of his redemptive suffering .457
Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458
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Hope this helps your quest.

God bless

Cathoholic
 
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"Behold, this child is destined
for the fall and rise of many in Israel,
and to be a sign that will be contradicted
–and you yourself a sword will pierce–
so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” ( Lk 2: 22 - 40)

It’s hard for me to think of any meaning for the last part of this quote without some reference to intercessory prayer, and other aspects of Mary’s unique role in the then future ( not just giving birth).

Why would the piercing of Mary help reveal the thoughts of other persons hearts?
 
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The rosary is the most popular of all private devotions - so, no, you will not be excommunicated.

The Liturgy of the Hours is the second offical liturgy of the Church (next to the Mass). Prior to Vatican 2, few if any laity said the LOTH. Vatican 2 encouraged the laity to participate in saying it; but no, you will not be excommunicated for not saying it.

If you have issues with Mary, you might want to avail yourself of the book Jesus and the Jewish Roots of Mary: Unveiling the Mother of the Messiah by Brant Pitre. If saying the rosary is difficult for whatever reason, then I would encourage you to find another way/method of praying; lectio divina is an excellent way to pray.
 
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