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Faith1960
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I’ve been searching for hours to find sound scientific proof that this is factual but can’t find it. Can you link me to something, please?
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Goldrock
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If several popes say the same thing over a period of many centuries and all the faithful believe it, then the doctrine is part of the ordinary and universal magisterium, which is infallible. Catholics have always believed in the existence of Adam and Eve and every human beings descent from them, as this is necessary for original sin to be true.
The first 11 chapters in Genesis are historical as per the PBC 1909 document ratified by Pope Pius X. You just finish saying that a papal encyclical is not infallible then try to quote a cardinal’s writing to prove that a teaching is a part of the faith. This is a highly problematic way of reasoning.
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Dorothy
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You are correct.Um I think you might have misread the document Dei Verbum.
While the Genesis story can be chronologically out of order and literary devices used, Adam and Eve are REAL people. It has always been held in Tradition and taught by the Church. Thus infallible.
So the Teachings are clear and I cited in my first post on the thread the document which settles this matter.
God Bless
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grannymh
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Link: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Paragraphs 355-421. Enjoy! It is a great read.
In brief, Pope Benedict XVI has always taught the theological truths regarding the relationship of humanity to God, our Creator. This includes the direct creation of the soul as the spiritual principle of the original sole parents of the human species and the defiant act of Adam which is known as Original Sin.
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grannymh
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Please scroll down to the section titled “Common Fallacies”.
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
I must praise for the effort you did to put the whole set of principles here. I copied them to my own study.
I put some question marks on these:- The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.) ???
- The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.) ???
- The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.) ???
- Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.) ???
- Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.) ???
- Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.) ???
- Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.) ???
- Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788. ???
- Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.) ???
- Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.) ???
- Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.) ???
- In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.) ???
- Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.) ??? Limbo was excluded already
The Church is not so immutable that it cannot change. Even the first christian immediately had to deal with subjects like circumcision and pork eating when dealing with gentiles. They simply had to abolish those fundamental precepts.
I think original sin is an ongoing debate that must find some solution but I cannot say that we reached a conclusion.
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Pfaffenhoffen
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No, Adam and Eve are not real people much less this infallible principle otherwise they’ld be 5000 years old and science says that man on Earth is millions of years old.Um I think you might have misread the document Dei Verbum.
While the Genesis story can be chronologically out of order and literary devices used, Adam and Eve are REAL people. It has always been held in Tradition and taught by the Church. Thus infallible.
So the Teachings are clear and I cited in my first post on the thread the document which settles this matter.
God Bless
that the Sun Stopped on the Sky so that the troops of Joshua defeated their enemies so the Sun Goes Round the moon. An you know what problems this caused to the Church.
TRADITION is not that Adam and Eve were real.
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grannymh
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The argument is over Divine Revelation.
There is a difference between eating pork and Jesus Christ bleeding on the cross.
Circumcision never reconciled human beings with God.
Or have people misunderstood the purpose of the Incarnation?
Of course, Original Sin is an ongoing debate because life would be so much easier if the spiritual soul and belief in God would disappear along with our rotting anatomy.
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Pfaffenhoffen
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The problem is not about the thread, it is about you.
You are a lady, probably and Pretty and Gentle Lady and I always was unlucky with women. I do not understand them and they do not understand me. I have got 2 sisters, my father had 4 sisters, my mother 6 sisters. It was not that I did not had contact with women, but they drive me crazy.
With you it was the same thing: I say one thing, you understand another, you say something, you do not answer to the point and when I answer you tell that I do not understand you, a mess. I get exhausted, so I surrender.
I know that women must have some kind of logic and I envy those men who ar good at understanding them but … unfortunately … that is not my case …
But, lets try again.
How did you know the Lady I was talking was you? Of course it was you! But it could not be you !!! 6th Sense?
There you come again. You did not say 3 lines without speaking about the Magisterium. If I continue this exchange with you I am going to count the times you repeat the word. This time it was 4 times. If Magisterium says it all, close CAF and study the Magisterium !!!
Wikipedia is an excelent source for beginners. You see, that is why it is so tiring!!, did I say anyhting so exagerated as this:
I have to answer to things I did not say ! Do you realize what you are saying, that the Pope is reading the wikipedia to know what His Teaching will be? How can a discussion go on with this sentence?
Yes I replied to Buffalo.
Yes, Adam and Eve are literary devices and The Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ to redeem us from all our sins. He wiped away all our sins, in the Cross he died and resurrected so that through baptism, confession, Eucharist and good deeds we maybe worthy, through His Blood, and through the merits of Him, as son of God, to be with Him and the Father and the Holy spirit, with all our Fellow Brothers, with the Holy Trinity for trillions of trillions or years, for all Eternity.
As you see, sound Catholic Church Teaching and I do not need a real Adam and Eve.
Yes, I utterly need Jesus Christ. Adam and Eve real are dispensable. Jesus Christ not.
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grannymh
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I sincerely hope you will continue your belief in the Trinity, the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and now His Real Presence in the Eucharist, and that Jesus Christ is the way to eternity with God.
What must be said is that people have always attacked the Catholic Church in some way. Currently, the battle is to scientifically remove the concept of spiritual soul and thus remove our connection to God Who calls all people to share in His life.
What the doctrine of Adam and Eve says is that the first human being was created with a spiritual soul and thus he could freely choose to remain forever in God’s friendship. But Adam, the created one, freely chose to scorn his Creator. The result is that Adam being the first human person broke the bond of God’s friendship not only for himself but for his descendants as well.
Yet, God did not abandon Adam and his descendants, you and me. Jesus Christ became Man in order to make amends for the Original Sin of Adam which also affected his descendants by propagation. The Gospel of John, Chapter 3, verses 16 & 17.
This is hard to understand; yet we are comforted by Jesus Christ Who reconciled humanity with its Creator. In other words, Jesus Christ specifically came because the founder of the human race sinned. Because we are part of the human race founded by Adam, we are implicated in Adam’s action. Now, because we are descendants of Adam, we are implicated in Christ’s act of salvation. Thanks be to God!
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Faith1960
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That’s a link to the catechism. I’m looking for scientific proof of monogenism being a fact.
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grannymh
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All that scientific evidence can do is lead one to a material/physical human anatomy which rots away and that is fact. Now, don’t get me wrong. The human anatomy is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The human anatomy is one with its spiritual soul. Because of its spiritual soul, there will eventually be the resurrection of the body and everlasting life everlasting.
Again, don’t misunderstand me – I like the both-and approach to science. Science can deal with *both *death and life. Recent benefits to human health coming from science are amazing.
Using one’s gift of reason, the possibility of monogenism can demonstrated using the teachings in the Catechism, but apparently, you are not satisfied with a reasonable possibility approach…
Now that I think about it, I wonder if there is scientific proof of human nature, which in itself unites both the material and spiritual worlds, as being a fact. According to science, what is the spiritual soul which makes it possible for a human person to share in God’s life through knowledge and love?
Since monogenism refers to two real human beings, science may have a bit of trouble with this because a spiritual soul cannot be sequenced like a genome can. Fortunately, Catholicism is backed by Divine Revelation which is why I consider it the best source for information about humanity and God.
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razredge
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Faith1960,
The doctrine on Adam & Eve has to and will change given the scientific evidence against monogenism.
Catholic theologians are currently looking into ways of reconciling Original Sin with polygenism - Cardinal Ratzinger himself proposed a relational model of OS which makes a lot of sense and is perfectly compatible with polygenism
The doctrine on Adam & Eve has to and will change given the scientific evidence against monogenism.
Catholic theologians are currently looking into ways of reconciling Original Sin with polygenism - Cardinal Ratzinger himself proposed a relational model of OS which makes a lot of sense and is perfectly compatible with polygenism
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grannymh
Guest
Ah, one says. All those Catholic theologians mentioned above will get grey hair, if they have any, from worrying day and night about science. True. The sad thing is that they have overlooked the power of the Holy Spirit to protect Divine Revelation such as the two sole parents of the human species. And they keep forgetting that Jesus Christ specifically came to reconcile the descendants of Adam with our Creator.
Blessings,
granny
Divine Revelation trumps!
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Benadam
Guest
In that case I have no doubt that the couple I descended from only indirectly participated in the conversation with Satan. Their sin was venial. Although not as wounded from Original sin, the wounds inflicted by living in a wounded world renders that reality insignificant. Except some of us don’t really need saved. Man, I wish they would figure out who came from who so we can know who needs to be Baptized.
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razredge
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Including Cardinal Ratzinger?
Granny, where do you get this from?
This too, how do you know this?
Hardly, if it did - we wouldn’t need science, Galileo wouldn’t be branded as a heretic, the Church would have taught evolution from the outset etc.
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razredge
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So tell me, what language did the talking snake speak?
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Benadam
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I believe this was an internal conversation between Eve and Satan.
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razredge
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Oh so that part of Genesis wasn’t literal, but the rest is?
Please, your position is self refuting.
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Jkimbo
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I take Adam and Eve as symbolical, with some historical as well, after all, at some point sin had to be introduced through the actions of humans. But at what point and when i don’t know. I think the story is beautiful and one can meditate on it for hours! I can’t imagine how it must be to be free of sin and walk freely in the presence of God! Sadly, I’m sure that was short lived and can’t wait for the return of such a state!
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