Documenting, arguably, four Jewish popes (Cleveland Jewish News)

[stumbler]

By: HERB GEDULD
5-26-2005

Despite the recent media frenzy over the death of Pope John Paul II and the subsequent election of his successor Cardinal Ratzinger as Pope Benedict, no mention has been made in the media of the two, possibly four, popes who were of Jewish descent.

The first pope Peter, of course, was of Jewish descent. Originally known as Shimon, Peter was chief of the apostles and became the first bishop of Rome. Peter was bishop of Rome for more than 25 years during the reigns of four Caesars, including Nero. He was crucified in 38 C.E. and, with Paul, is buried in a tomb beneath St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican, the central church of the Catholic faith.

Almost 1,000 years later, the first cardinal of acknowledged Jewish descent, Anacletus II, was elected as pope in 1130 by a majority of the College of Cardinals. Anacletus II, whose original name was Pietro (Peter) Pierleone, was the great-grandson of a Roman Jew, Baruch Pierleone, who with his entire family had converted to Catholicism 100 years earlier on Easter of 1030. Baruch took on the not-so-new name of Benedictus Christianus…

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Full article

 

[Liberian]

stumbler:

Full article

Nifty!

• Liberian

 

[jjwilkman]

jewish is not a race, it is a religion. St Peter was a former jew.
i could ask one question. is it the case that the others mentioned were converts. or just descended
i indeed mean no disrepect.
just as mexican is not a race, it is a nation there are white mexicans, black mexicans, indian mexicans, and, of course the mixture of all the races races there are lots of korean mexicans. i have seen almost no prejudice here…

 

[Sean_O_L]

Can A Jew be Pope?

 

[puzzleannie]

the last link does not look like an orthodox Catholic site, has no place here. the first story is quite interesting. I believe the current cardinal archbishop of Paris is a Jew who was taken in by a Catholic family during the war and converted due to their example, so it is quite possible.

 

[Petergee]

stumbler:

By: HERB GEDULD
5-26-2005

Despite the recent media frenzy over the death of Pope John Paul II and the subsequent election of his successor Cardinal Ratzinger as Pope Benedict, no mention has been made in the media of the two, possibly four, popes who were of Jewish descent.

The first pope Peter, of course, was of Jewish descent. Originally known as Shimon, Peter was chief of the apostles and became the first bishop of Rome. Peter was bishop of Rome for more than 25 years during the reigns of four Caesars, including Nero. He was crucified in 38 C.E. and, with Paul, is buried in a tomb beneath St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican, the central church of the Catholic faith.

Almost 1,000 years later, the first cardinal of acknowledged Jewish descent, Anacletus II, was elected as pope in 1130 by a majority of the College of Cardinals. Anacletus II, whose original name was Pietro (Peter) Pierleone, was the great-grandson of a Roman Jew, Baruch Pierleone, who with his entire family had converted to Catholicism 100 years earlier on Easter of 1030. Baruch took on the not-so-new name of Benedictus Christianus…

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Full article

I’m afraid the article is either ill-informed or deliberately mischievous. Whatever his descent may have been, “Anacletus II” was not a Pope. He was an antipope in opposition to the true Pope Innocent II. The journalist and his newspaper could have easily verified this by checking the widely available list of Popes. St Peter was the only Pope of Jewish descent (although admittedly very little is known of the ancestry of the Popes of the first couple of centuries.)

And he gets the date of St Peter’s crucifixion grossly wrong. It was in 64 AD (or possibly 67AD according to some historians). And I think you’ll find St Paul is buried at St Paul’s Outside the Walls, not at St Peter’s Basilica.

 

[Sean_O_L]

Petergee –
Please consider the following:

Popes

Links to references in the church guide are found in the third column. Only a few biographical notes have been included. Only those whose election is considered valid by the Vatican (according to AP 1999) are included in the list. The dates given for pontificates vary with different sources - I have used those officially accepted by the Catholic Church, found in AP 1999. Antipopes are listed with smaller type.
http://roma.katolsk.no/popes.htm
Shows:

**97 - 105 St Evaristus **
“Of a Greek family, possibly the son of a Jew from Bethlehem.Tradition claims that he was martyred under Trajan, but there are no known persecutions under that Emperor. Probably buried near the tomb of St Peter, at the site of S Pietro in Vaticano Memoria 26 October.”

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**The Encyclopedia of World History. 2001. **
IV. Roman Popes
http://www.bartleby.com/67/app4.html
Shows:

“1045–46 Gregory VI (John Gratian Pierleoni)”

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As I point out in my link above – http://jloughnan.tripod.com/jewpope.htm

Gregory VI {147th P.} (05 May 1045 - 20 Dec. 1046.)
During his second term, Benedict IX {146th} made out a deed of abdication in favour of his godfather John Gratian, who was then elected as Gregory VI. (Oxford Dictionary of Popes)

But Gregory VI/John Gratian (claimed to have been of the Jewish Pierleoni family Popes From the Ghetto p.115 and KOTK p.84].) had to hand over a huge amount of money. Implausibly, this has been represented as an inducement to stand down rather than as strict payment for the papal office, which it was almost certainly intended to be. (ODP and PFG.)

etc.

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While records may show where a pope was born – e.g. St Evaristus, born in Greece – this is NO proof that he was ethnically Greek. Cf. http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0001474.html The possibility is that he was ethnically Jewish.

I also recommend reading “Popes From The Ghetto, A View of Medieval Christendom”, by Joachim Prinz, Schocken Books, 1966.

 

[Ignatius]

stumbler:

The first pope Peter, of course, was of Jewish descent. Originally known as Shimon, Peter was chief of the apostles and became the first bishop of Rome. Peter was bishop of Rome for more than 25 years during the reigns of four Caesars, including Nero. He was crucified in 38 C.E. and, with Paul, is buried in a tomb beneath St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican, the central church of the Catholic faith.

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Full article

I question the for Peter and Paul dates. The best dates I’ve seen for the martyrdom of both Peter and Paul is around A.D. 67.

 

[Liberian]

Can A Jew be Pope?

Sean,

Given that the first one was, I would say that the answer is “yes.”

• Liberian

 

[I_A]

Do y’all know if Clement (the second or third pope) was Jewish? His letter I’ve read sound so Jewish I thought he must have been. It would make sense if he was seeing as how Rome had a sizeable Jewish population where the church flourished.

 

[Sean_O_L]

I_A_,

roma.katolsk.no/popes.htm shows him to have been “from: Rome” - another says Born: Rome. Of course, he could have been ethicnally Jewish, but I have no other info.

A curious thing about St Evaristus: His feast was kept until 1969 on Oct. 26. (Book of Saints.). I believe that there is insufficient info. on him.

 

[Petergee]

Sean O L:

Petergee –
Please consider the following: (etc)

I have, in fact I considered most of it before I posted. Are you suggesting there is something in this material which refutes something I said?

 

[Petergee]

In any case the title of Prinz’s book is an absurd anachronism. None of the purported “Jewish Popes” he lays claim to could possibly have come “from the ghetto”. “Ghettoes” did not exist until the 16th century. When Ferdinand and Isabella expelled the Jews from Spain, many of them fled to Italy. Then as now, most Jews preferred to live in large cities, and many were drawn to Venice, then at the height of its power. Many of these settled in a suburb of Venice called Il Ghetto(“The Foundry”). Later this became a name for any suburb where many Jews lived.

 

[Loren_1of6]

stumbler:

By: HERB GEDULD
5-26-2005

… Peter was bishop of Rome for more than 25 years during the reigns of four Caesars, including Nero. He was crucified in 38 C.E. …

Jesus was crucified in 33 AD (or CE if that suits you better). So, according to these numbers, Peter led the new Church as Pope for more than 25 years and was crucified only five years after Jesus. I this this is a miracle that needs more public recognition.

 

[Sean_O_L]

Petergee wrote:

the article is either ill-informed or deliberately mischievous… St Peter was the only Pope of Jewish descent

THESE generalized and unsubstantiated assertions I dispute!

the title of Prinz’s book is an absurd anachronism.

Nonsense! If nothing else, it is VERY metaphorical! In any event, the Pierleoni resided in the Trastevere:

We do know, however, that the family lived in the Trastevere, that district of Rome on the right bank of the Tiber across from the ancient Roman Forum. The Trastevere was not a Ghetto in the technical sense of the word. The term Ghetto was coined in sixteenth century Venice, where the Jewish quarter was established close to the guetto nuovo - the cannon foundry - and thereafter every Judengasse in Germany and Juiverie in France was called a Ghetto. But while the term itself did not exist in the eleventh century, it is true that most of the Jews of Rome, aside from a few families in the Campus Martius and the Suburba, did live in one quarter: the Trastevere.

Trastevere had been a Jewish quarter since the first pre-Christian century. In the days of the Roman Empire, when some fifty-thousand Jews lived in Rome, seven of the eleven known synagogues were in Trastevere. The oldest Roman church, Santa Maria in Trastevere, was also built there, erected in the fourth century on a site where oil had gushed out of the ground. (Instead of a derrick, the people built a church.) The whole district smelled of petroleum, though that smell was perhaps the area’s least objectionable. For it was not at all a pleasant neighborhood but, as one historian of ancient Rome describes it, a "district characterized by narrow, crowded streets, towering tenement houses teeming with population. Ancient writers testify to the unsavory character of the area; there were snake charmers, fortune tellers, the noisy vendors of salt fish, hot peas and steaming sausages, the peddlers and petty merchants that thronged the streets. Here were the miserable quarters of the poor, unassimilated, immigrant population, wretchedly housed in vast tenement blocks, perhaps hundreds to a building, as in poorer quarters of Rome and Naples in our day, subject to the perils of fire, building collapse and the not infrequent floods of the Tiber."3 Yet in the midst of this misery "there were magnificent palaces of the nobles."4
PFTG pp.13-16<

None of the purported “Jewish Popes” he lays claim to could possibly have come “from the ghetto”.

More nonsense.

“Ghettoes” did not exist until the 16th century

.
Technically correct. Practically, incorrect.
Cf. Have Been Some Attitudes Towards Jewry?What

I’ll bet YOU would not have enjoyed having been born Jewish in those past times: I wouldn’t!

 

[Petergee]

Sean O L:

Petergee wrote:
THESE generalized and unsubstantiated assertions I dispute!

Nonsense! If nothing else, it is VERY metaphorical! In any event, the Pierleoni resided in the Trastevere:

More nonsense.
.
Technically correct. Practically, incorrect.
Cf. What Have Been Some Attitudes Towards Jewry?

I’ll bet YOU would not have enjoyed having been born Jewish in those past times: I wouldn’t!

Whether it was enjoyable to be a Jew is completely beside the point. None of Prinz’s would-be Jewish Popes could possibly have come “from the ghetto”.

And I’m still waiting for you to show how you support your claim to have refuted my statement that the only Popes of Jewish descent were St Peter and possibly others of the first couple of centuries. If you cannot do so, please be kind enough to admit it rather than attempting to confuse the issue with other irrelevant issues. Yes we all know that antisemitism has always existed. But we are discussing whether there were other Jewish Popes. To say that there were not, is not antisemitism on my part, merely reflecting the best consensus of historians far more learned than you or me.

 

[rwoehmke]

stumbler:

By: HERB GEDULD
5-26-2005
The first pope Peter, of course, was of Jewish descent. Originally known as Shimon, Peter was chief of the apostles and became the first bishop of Rome. Peter was bishop of Rome for more than 25 years during the reigns of four Caesars, including Nero. He was crucified in 38 C.E. and, with Paul, is buried in a tomb beneath St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican, the central church of the Catholic faith. URL=http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/articles/2005/05/26/news/world/popes0527.txt]Full article

Something is amiss here. If Peter was crucified in 38 CE he could not have been Bishop of Rome for 25 years, let alone Pope for 26 years. I don’t think it is even certain that he was the original Bishop of Rome despite being the first Pope. He was Bishop of Antioch for a short time and then went to Rome.

 

[Sean_O_L]

petergee wrote:

None of Prinz’s would-be Jewish Popes could possibly have come “from the ghetto”.

And I’m still waiting for you to show how you support your claim to have refuted my statement that the only Popes of Jewish descent were St Peter and possibly others of the first couple of centuries… whether there were other Jewish Popes. To say that there were not, is not antisemitism on my part…

To which I respond:

 

[Petergee]

Sean O L:

petergee wrote:

To which I respond:

Dear Sean, I’m flattered that you thought I merited a whole new webpage, though puzzled why you didn’t see fit to reply in the Forum. However you have done little more than rehash the original article and your previous posts.

Perhaps if I clarify my statement from “St Peter was the only Pope of Jewish descent (although admittedly very little is known of the ancestry of the Popes of the first couple of centuries.)” to* “St Peter was the only Pope definitely proven to beof Jewish descent (although admittedly very little is known of the ancestry of the Popes of the first couple of centuries.)”* you would no longer find it “oxymoronic”.

I stand by my statement that Geduld’s article is either ill-informed or deliberately mischievous. You have failed to come up with any other explanation for the glaring errors in it.

I will accept your claim that you didn’t intend to accuse me of anti-semitism, if you can provide some other explanation why you said to me, “I’ll bet YOU would not have enjoyed having been born Jewish in those past times: I wouldn’t!” and your patronising implication that I did not know “what have been some attitudes toward Jewry”. You certainly seem to have the urge to unload both barrels onto anyone who dares to oppose any effort to maximise by all means possible, true or false, the number of “Jewish Popes”.

 

[Sean_O_L]

Petergee wrote:

I merited a whole new webpage, though puzzled why you didn’t see fit to reply in the Forum

If I suggested to you that a post of such lenght would NOT be appropriate - would that allay the tendency to be flattered?
*
**St Peter was the only Pope **definitely proven to be ****of Jewish descent (although admittedly very little is known of the ancestry of the Popes of the first couple of centuries.)"

Would certainly be an improvement - but would fly in the face of the entries allegedly extracted from the 1871 “Annuario Pontificio”, but, it would also prove my point as to your initial claim as being unacceptable. Thank you if that amendment IS your current position.
The same applied to St Evaristus who is also alleged to have been born in Bethlehem. I am sorry that you are not able to acknowledge the possibility - let alone the probability of him being an ethnic Judean.

I stand by my statement that Geduld’s article is either ill-informed or deliberately mischievous.

Why ought I be surprised at that? The claim still remains unsubstantiated, and you are consistent. It was for this quality that Ani Ibi wrote:

No you’re not.You’re trying to dodge correction and you’re trying to dodge making an apology - which would be the gentlemanly thing to do - and you’re trying to dodge negotiating common language which is part of conducting a discussion.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=945044&postcount=34

“I will accept your claim…”

Frankly, mate, I am unconcerned what you will accept or not! I bid you adieu, and wish you God’s blessings.
*