Documenting James White...

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James White, Reformed Baptist elder and administrator of Alpha & Omega Ministries, claims that he does not engage in ad hominem attacks on others. Moreover, James White frequently complains that others are guilty of this fallacy, and that he’s an innocent man in this regard.

I’m starting this thread as a reference to document the hypocrisy of James White’s claim. Please feel free to add your own documentation, but if you do, please include a citation/link. Remember…this is ONLY about *ad hominem *attacks, so only post where the MAN is attacked (not the argument) should be referenced. The veracity of any given statement is irrelevant…only that it’s a personal attack and NOT an attack on a person’s argument.

Beware - this will necessitate actually reading large quantities of James White’s material and parsing through artful dodges. What do I mean by artful dodges? James White gave us a tip from his playbook when he made the following comment regarding Tim Staples:
James White:
Strangely, he refused to call me a liar, while styling a number of my comments lies.
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Source.

This is precisely James White’s usual tactic (“I didn’t call him an idiot, I said all his ideas are idiotic…”), so it’s odd that he would call someone else on it. Since this is James White’s typical response to accusations of ad hominem attacks, please try to keep the quotes as on-point as possible.

Let the documentation begin! (All bold/color/underscores added for emphasis.)
James White:
…Dr. Sippo demonstrated a complete inability (or unwillingness) to behave in a respectful, proper manner. And nothing has changed in eleven years. Of course, one thing is always constant: Dr. Sippo will insult you in one paragraph, and then complain about how mean and unloving you are in the next.
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Source.
James White:
…Roman Catholic apologists speak more to the intense hatred and emotionalism of these men
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Source.
James White:
[Irony] It seems Rome’s apologists are intent upon continuing to provide more and more evidence of their utter desperation as well as their complete willingness to attack the person rather than the issue. [/Irony]
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Source.
James White:
Any person who can read Greek can see… t is amazing that [Tim Staples] would attempt to use this passage… No one who is a serious scholar of the language would ever say such a thing. Source.
James White:
Phil Porvaznik, a sometimes Roman Catholic “apologist” of sorts (more a humorous gadfly than a serious apologist
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)… Source.

As a side note, it’s interesting what James White has to say about ad hominem attacks:
James White:
On a personal level, I was quite simply shocked at the amount of ad-hominem
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argumentation… Of course, I find such tactics indicative of a lost cause… Source.

Exactly, Mr. White. Exactly.
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RyanL quoting White << Phil Porvaznik, a sometimes Roman Catholic “apologist” of sorts (more a humorous gadfly than a serious apologist)… >>

Hey that’s not an ad hominem attack if its most definitely true…

Phil P
 
White: Oh look, this isn’t an argument!
PhilVaz: Yes it is!
White: No it isn’t! (pause) It’s just contradiction!
PhilVaz: No it isn’t!
White: It IS!
PhilVaz: It is NOT!
White: You just contradicted me!
PhilVaz: No I didn’t!
White: You DID!
PhilVaz: No no no!
White: You did just then!
PhilVaz: Nonsense!
White: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!

http://www.jumpstation.ca/recroom/comedy/python/images/man.gif

Phil P
 
I was going through all of his debates and catalouging such things because he wanted me to present such a claim on his program, but I got back to school and so I have no time to finsh this task right now. I do have a very partial list, though.
 
James from his Blog << You know what is odd about Phil? He knows he can never engage the biblical issues. He doesn’t even try. Might want to pray for that young man. >>

Thanks for the prayers. 👍 As for engaging biblical issues:

The Catholic Church is the true Church

Peter is the Rock, etc

Some of my longer efforts. Second one’s not finished either. I have a habit of not finishing things. :confused: Also not so young any more…

Phil P
 
I have debated many fundamentalists. Virtually all of them were filled with hatred. When they say they “love Catholics” you can see right through it.
 
I found an ad hominem attack! Hooray!

James on his Blog << You know what is odd about Phil? He knows he can never engage the biblical issues. He doesn’t even try. Might want to pray for that young man. >>

TRANSLATION: “Phil Porvaznik is a biblical moron and knows it.”

Sorry, won’t work. I did say I wouldn’t debate with White on biblical issues back in 2002, but that’s different. However, I have memorized every word White has ever spoken in every debate he had since 1990 which is precisely why I’m still Catholic and not Reformed Baptist. 😃

John Martignoni is next and everyone knows that. Watch out. :eek:

Phil P
 
<< JM is next? >>

Major apologist White hasn’t debated yet. Besides Scott Hahn.

But Martignoni is into debating so its inevitable. I say 2007 or 2008 they have their first series of debates. Maybe they can carefully narrow the topic to make it interesting.

Phil P
 
JM is a great apologist. That’d be interesting to see, more interesting than White debating anyone else I think. White also hasn’t debated KK, which I doubt will ever happen, and I doubt he’d debate Hahn either. In fact…I’ve never heard Hahn debate ANYONE. 🙂
 
cestusdei said:
I have debated many fundamentalists. Virtually all of them were filled with hatred. When they say they “love Catholics” you can see right through it.
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Hello, I am new in here. I just happen to notice A LOT of hatred toward a fellow Christian, Mr. White. While he may not believe the way you believe does that mean he’s filled with hatred? Look in the mirror. The hatred I see is coming from this blog. Why are you saying fundamentalists are filled with Hate. I consider myself a fundamentalist and I love ALL Christians. I feel sorry for MUSLIMS who are so lost! Forgive me, but as a new member, that’s how I see it. I have read some of Mr. White’s blogs to. The man obviously loves Jesus Christ as Catholics do. Why in the world so much hatred toward the man. Why are you talking as if Dr. White is more evil than these Muslims who want YOU all wiped off the earth!! These blogs should be filled with sorrow that Muslims are so lost! At least Mr. White is a Christian! Come on people. Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest. Feel free to respond. Thank You!
 
<< Hello, I am new in here. I just happen to notice A LOT of hatred toward a fellow Christian, Mr. White. >>

Please fellow Catholics, do not start any more White threads unless you have a detailed mega-rebuttal to offer that does not attack the person (called ad hominem fallacy). Hate will cause all White threads to be locked. We don’t want that. Love only along with massive mega-rebuttals. 😃

Phil P
 
<< I’ve never heard Hahn debate ANYONE. >>

Three Hahn debates are out there.

In 1989 with Robert Knudsen on Authority and Justification (transcripts available online somewhere)

In 1990 on CRI’s B.A.M. various topics (MP3 on my site)

In 1997 with Robert Bowman (formerly of CRI)

Hahn also moderated the first Matatics-White debate on the Papacy in 1990 when White was still using the Gregory the Great "universal bishop" quote, and the two St. Jerome quotes that Dom John Chapman demolished 100 years ago. :rolleyes: 👍

Phil P
 
Why does Mr White feel the need to monitor Catholic Answers? In his blog he says, “One thing is for certain, truth lies fallen in the corridors of the Catholic Answers forums, and few there be who seem to mourn its passing.”

If CA is so devoid of truth, why does the forum matter to him? He seems to be offended by hyper-space chatter. Then he insults Phil by saying “He knows he can never engage the biblical issues. He doesn’t even try.” I don’t understand this man.

Christians, (protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox alike), should not be driven by elitism and spiritual pride—it is a dangerous thing.
 
Scotty_Wuebb said:
Hello, I am new in here. I just happen to notice A LOT of hatred toward a fellow Christian, Mr. White. While he may not believe the way you believe does that mean he’s filled with hatred? Look in the mirror. The hatred I see is coming from this blog. Why are you saying fundamentalists are filled with Hate. I consider myself a fundamentalist and I love ALL Christians. I feel sorry for MUSLIMS who are so lost! Forgive me, but as a new member, that’s how I see it. I have read some of Mr. White’s blogs to. The man obviously loves Jesus Christ as Catholics do. Why in the world so much hatred toward the man. Why are you talking as if Dr. White is more evil than these Muslims who want YOU all wiped off the earth!! These blogs should be filled with sorrow that Muslims are so lost! At least Mr. White is a Christian! Come on people. Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest. Feel free to respond. Thank You!
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Welcome Scotty.

I see that you too have opinions of Mr White. I choose to use the Mr because, IMHO, he has earned that title.

There is a rather renowned Catholic Priest, Fr. John Corapi, who has said that too many educate themselves into imbecility. I believe that might apply to Mr White, although he got his “training” from his anti-Catholic father.

You see, there is a difference between being a non-Catholic (which I assume you are), and an anti-Catholic.

You will find a lot of tolerance, compassion, and even love here at CA for non-Catholics. And that will include non-Christians like our Muslim, JW, and Mormon brethren.

You will not find much tolerance for anti-Catholics. And that would include haters like Jack Chick, and the ignorance/stubborn like Mr. White. (and I think I am being gentle with those adjectives.)

Please try to see the difference between hate and intolerance.

.
 
Wow. Posted this thread last night, by this morning James White has a response on his blog. Color me impressed that he can find the time!

First, let me thank him for correcting my citation of the Tim Staples comment. (Updated link: source document.) He didn’t have to take the time to find it (or link it), but he did. That was very kind.

Second, his main defense (paraphrased) is, “Yeah, I said those things…but they’re TRUE!” As I stated at the outset, the veracity of a given statement is not what’s at issue. Mr. X may very well be an ugly man, but attacking him for being ugly is not the same as attacking his argument. At issue is the claim that James White does not engage in ad hominem attacks.

Third, my “sixth example” cited was not really an example…it was a side note (hence the preface). It’s not an ad hominem in and of itself, but merely a commentary on the worth of such attacks. Quite frankly, I’m surprised James White didn’t read the post more carefully, given that he dedicates an entire blog entry to it.

Fourth, the Dr. Sippo ad hominem. Stating that you were insulted is not an ad hominem. Stating that it’s a character trait of the person who insulted you that they “will insult you …and complain about how mean…you are” is an ad hominem. In truth, this is part and parcel of James White’s entire reply – he confuses giving specific instances of fact with providing a statement on the character of an individual (or group). When the character is impugned, it’s an ad hominem. Calling someone (or a group of someones) hateful is an ad hominem. It may very well be true, but it’s still a character attack which has nothing to do with their arguments.

Fifth, and this is more for James White, I have listened to every debate of yours I could get my hands on (including the Dr. Sippo debate). I’m still missing about two of your debates (because I’m cheap and don’t want to pay for them), but I have heard the rest. I have listened to the Dividing Line several times, and have read a number of your blog entries. I have been to the Envoy forums, and I’m familiar with the things that are written there – that’s why I post here and not there.

Sixth and finally, let me say that I have quite a bit of respect for James White. He is an intelligent man who is sincerely seeking to do the will of God. I don’t think he’s a big meanie, and I would greet him as a brother-in-Christ (although he would not return the sentiment). I think he tries to do his homework when engaging with Catholics (which is commendable), but there are a few fundamental misunderstandings he’s unwilling to part with that prohibit fruitful dialog.

That said, I think his denouncement of ad hominems of others while engaging in ad hominems himself is hypocritical. I’m calling him on it. His response: “I’m downright proud of it.” Source.

Oh…and I only read about two or three articles on aomin.org in order to draw the quotes above. This post was motivated by those articles, and by no means constitutes “the best I can do”.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
Mickey said:
But I am wondering, (and I truly do not know the answer to this), does he think that Catholics are Christians?
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To the best of my understanding, he does not believe Catholics are Christians. He believes we preach a different Gospel because we do not preach Sola Fide. He also seems to believe that Catholics are idolaters (from his Pat Madrid “Saints” debate).

God Bless,
RyanL
 
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